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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jan 10 2008, 10:03pm
Post #1 of 45
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**Strider** 8. Proof
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Sam challenges Strider one more time, and gets a definitive response. Nothing I can write here compares with NZ Strider's brilliant take on this iconic moment.
1. Comments? Tolkien doesn't explicitly show that Strider was tempted by the Ring. Was he?
'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn; and if by life or death I can save you, I will.' This is a very moving and profound oath. In the movie it is echoed in the moment between Frodo and Aragorn at Amon Hen. At that point, however, Frodo has evaded Boromir's attempt to seize the Ring, and is acutely conscious of how it works on people.
2. Comment, if you wish, on this moment in book and film.
Frodo finally asks for and gets proof of identity: Strider can quote the poem, and produces the broken sword.
This sword bothers a lot of people (including me). In the first place, it seems wildly impractical for a Ranger, who surely must need a working sword on a regular basis. Even Strider admits, "It's not much use, is it?" It's often suggested that Strider brought it as an identity card, but if Frodo has never seen or heard of this sword, how does it identify him?
3. Why (in your opinion) is he carrying the broken Narsil? Does he have another, working sword?
Hammond & Scull offer some background on the broken sword theme:
His situation recalls the most famous broken sword of legend, Gram in the Volsungasaga, which Tolkien mentions in On Fairy Stories. Odin gave the sword to Sigmund, but years later shattered it with a blow from his spear and turned the tide of battle. Hjordis, Sigmund's widow, saved the shards and gave them to her son Sigurd when he grew up. The sword was reforged for him by Regin, and with it he slew the dragon Fafnir. Tolkien first read Sigurd's story while still a child, in Andrew Lang's retelling in The Red Fairy Tale Book (1899).
With the question of identity settled, they begin making serious plans, to leave early in the morning for Weathertop, which Strider sees as a rendezvous point with Gandalf.
Frodo now realizes that Gandalf must have sent Aragorn, which Aragorn confirms:
‘I came west with him in the spring. I have often kept watch on the borders of the Shire in the last few years, when he was busy elsewhere. He seldom left it unguarded. We last met on the first of May: at Sam Ford down the Brandywine. He told me that his business with you had gone well, and that you would be starting for Rivendell in the last week of September. As I knew he was at your side, I went away on a journey of my own. And that has proved ill; for plainly some news reached him, and I was not at hand to help.
‘I am troubled, for the first time since I have known him. We should have had messages, even if he could not come himself. When I returned, many days ago, I heard the ill news. The tidings had gone far and wide that Gandalf was missing and the horsemen had been seen. It was the Elven-folk of Gildor that told me this; and later they told me that you had left your home; but there was no news of your leaving Buckland. I have been watching the East Road anxiously.’
Gandalf arrived at Bag End in early April. Although he talks about leaving earlier, in fact he "stayed in the Shire for over two months," thus leaving in June.
4. Did he sneak off to visit Aragorn in May? Har far is it from Bag End to Sarn Ford?
5. Tidings had gone far and wide that Gandalf was missing... Where??? Not in Bree, not in the Shire. Is Gildor is the only source of this news? Who else knows Gandalf's missing, and how?
Now Pippin can't keep his eyes open, but least he thinks of Merry, though mostly in irritation.
6. How can he be sleepy having just learned what we've learned? Why aren't the hobbits more concerned about Merry? Are they still not taking this seriously enough?
In the next post we'll hear of Merry's adventures.
"Are you frightened?"
Discussing "Strider" Jan. 6-11 in the Reading Room
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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weaver
Gondolin
Jan 10 2008, 10:33pm
Post #2 of 45
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separate moments in the films...
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1. Comments? Tolkien doesn't explicitly show that Strider was tempted by the Ring. Was he?
'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn; and if by life or death I can save you, I will.' This is a very moving and profound oath. In the movie it is echoed in the moment between Frodo and Aragorn at Amon Hen. At that point, however, Frodo has evaded Boromir's attempt to seize the Ring, and is acutely conscious of how it works on people.
2. Comment, if you wish, on this moment in book and film.
In the films, Strider's real name is revealed by Legolas at the Council of Elrond. And Aragorn makes his oath as part of joining the Fellowship at the end of this scene.
His rejection of the Ring is what takes place at Amon Hen.
In terms of comments, in the films, there are similiarities between Faramir and Aragorn in terms of the "oath"-- both kneel to Frodo and both offer their lives to help him. But to show the difference between the two of them, Aragorn was shown "not" giving into the Ring's lure, and Faramir to give into it for awhile, at least indirectly, by deciding it should "go to Gondor."
Weaver
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Daughter of Nienna
Hithlum
Jan 11 2008, 7:47am
Post #3 of 45
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I am suffering from some serious jet lag... this will be brief.
3. My take on Aragorn carrying the Shards of Narsil is as a kind of talisman or reminder of what part he plays in a grat story, a reminder of what his goal is in a way. And, I think more than that it is a way of being connected and of honoring his ancestors. It is sort of the same feeling that Théoden expresses toward symbols of his heritage in later chapters (I am blanking on the specifics at the moment). I see ancesters and heritage as an important part of sagas and myths.
To me, the shards are a more personal and spritual thing to Aragorn than as a calling card or method of identitying himself to others. Kind of like Sam noticing how they are part of the story continuing. Aragorn, too is a part of the story continuing and so do the Shards right along with him.
I feel its one little element in a long lsit of elements that add so much depth and history to the tale.
6. Hobbits are so resilent. And I don't think they fully realize, yet just how serious things will get or just how serious their part of things will get. And, I suspect hobbits generally don't have much trouble sleeping under any circumstances.
I am looking forward to going back and reading the previous threads in your discussion. Thanks for all your hard work.
DoN
**Tribute: Lt. J.G. Robert Sterling, WWII Pilot MIA, by Gramma & DoN**
Art Gallery Revised, Aloha & Mahalo, Websites Directory
Nienna: “ those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope . . . All those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom." — Valaquenta
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 11 2008, 4:58pm
Post #4 of 45
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Sam challenges Strider one more time, and gets a definitive response. Nothing I can write here compares with NZ Strider's brilliant take on this iconic moment.
1. Comments?
I don't like Strider bullying the hobbits. But I guess he's getting desperate. "Violence is the first reaction of a fool and the last refuge of the wise."
Tolkien doesn't explicitly show that Strider was tempted by the Ring. Was he?
It's an enigma. I prefer to think the way it was presented in the films. Aragorn was afraid he'd be tempted, but when he finally confronted the ring he found it had no power over him.
'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn; and if by life or death I can save you, I will.' This is a very moving and profound oath. In the movie it is echoed in the moment between Frodo and Aragorn at Amon Hen. At that point, however, Frodo has evaded Boromir's attempt to seize the Ring, and is acutely conscious of how it works on people.
Aragorn says it at the council, right after Frodo impresses the heck out of him by taking up the corrupting ring a second time.
2. Comment, if you wish, on this moment in book and film.
I like it better in the film, where Aragorn makes the oath because he sees the remarkable courage in the face of known horror that Frodo displays.
The book is more like Beowulf, where an oath is made to provide a foundation for friendship, rather than because of existing friendship.
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Frodo finally asks for and gets proof of identity: Strider can quote the poem, and produces the broken sword.
This sword bothers a lot of people (including me). In the first place, it seems wildly impractical for a Ranger, who surely must need a working sword on a regular basis. Even Strider admits, "It's not much use, is it?" It's often suggested that Strider brought it as an identity card...
I think it was just coincidence Strider happened to have it.
... but if Frodo has never seen or heard of this sword, how does it identify him?
It's part of the riddle.
3. Why (in your opinion) is he carrying the broken Narsil?
As I knew he [Gandalf] was at your side, I went away on a journey of my own.
IMHO, Strider dropped by somewhere where the shards of Narsil were kept (possibly Fornost), to pick them up so he could get them reforged in Rivendell. What good fortune Strider just happened to have them in his posssession right when they were needed! "The Higher Powers....etc." Remember, he's dragging around not just the hilt, but all the Shards of Narsil. I mean, what if he loses a shard? Could it still be reforged? There's no way he's going to be dragging the shards around for years and years. It's just asking for trouble. He's transporting them.
Does he have another, working sword?
No doubt.
Throwing back his cloak, he laid his hand on the hilt of a sword that had hung concealed by his side.
He's had one concealed sword all during this time and nobody noticed, so why not another? Probably also has a knife in his boot and a razor at the back of his neck.
Gandalf arrived at Bag End in early April. Although he talks about leaving earlier, in fact he "stayed in the Shire for over two months," thus leaving in June.
4. Did he sneak off to visit Aragorn in May?
'Sneaking, sneaking!' Gandalf hissed. 'Ellizabeth always so polite, yes. O nice Elizabeth!'
Gandalf no doubt went on many walks, with and without Frodo. (That does seem to be the national pastime of the Shire after all.) During one of those walks he just happened to run across a certain ranger lurking in the bushes.
Har far is it from Bag End to Sarn Ford?
No more than a day's ride. When The Nine reach Sarn Ford on September 22 they run into Rangers, who hold until they're wiped out at nightfall. The next day a Black Rider reaches Bag End and talks with the Gaffer.
5. Tidings had gone far and wide that Gandalf was missing... Where??? Not in Bree, not in the Shire. Is Gildor is the only source of this news? Who else knows Gandalf's missing, and how?
Wizards. We'll find out that both Saruman and Radagast are looking for Gandalf. Which means birds, beasts, and Men from the South are also looking for Gandalf.
Now Pippin can't keep his eyes open, but least he thinks of Merry, though mostly in irritation.
6. How can he be sleepy having just learned what we've learned?
Well, sometimes you get so tired physically and mentally you just don't care.
Why aren't the hobbits more concerned about Merry?
Yes, when they returned to the parlour the fire had burned really low so Merry had already been gone a while. I think it points up that of all the four Merry is the one that would be most able to take care of himself. That is, they can't conceive of Merry getting into any trouble he can't handle himself.
Are they still not taking this seriously enough?
That's hobbits. Pippin didn't exactly take his own death at the Morannon too seriously, did he?
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jan 11 2008, 5:02pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 11 2008, 6:21pm
Post #5 of 45
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I don't think the Ring is responsible for anyone's temptation.
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1. Comments? Tolkien doesn't explicitly show that Strider was tempted by the Ring. Was he?
The Devil needs something to work with, and that seems to me to be the case with the Ring as well. Smeagol, Boromir, Saruman, and Denethor were tempted by the Ring. Two of them were never in close proximity to it. Smeagol was instantly tempted, but for all we know he would have been tempted by ordinary gold as well. He does not seem to have been a nice person before he ran across the Ring. Boromir, I judge, was not tempted because of his proximity to the Ring, but because of his proximity to the Ring he acted upon his temptation, as Denethor might have done if he had been given the opportunity, and as Saruman certainly would have done.
But what about Frodo? Wasn't he tempted? Not after he understood that the Ring would reveal him to the Enemy, not conceal him. So the temptation isn't about the Ring, it's about Frodo's desire to hide, or in the case of Bombadil because of his wounded pride. Again, the temptation is in Frodo, not in the Ring.
The Ring does have some power over Frodo, and also over Bilbo, even when they realize it is evil. But that is not really temptation, but more like possession, for in those circumstances Frodo and Bilbo have no control over their will, and if they were given control would instantly take off the Ring. We see this on the Hill of Seeing, for example, where Gandalf frees Frodo not by forcing him to take off the Ring, but simply by releasing him from the power of the Ring so that Frodo can make his own choice.
The Ring seems to have this control over Frodo and Bilbo because they are ringbearers, and moreover have born the Ring for many years, and not just briefly like Sam does. The control grows stronger in Mordor, and strongest of all beside the Cracks of Doom, and this would account, perhaps, for the Ring's control over Isildur as well. Isildur might also have suffered from some inner temptation, but even if he hadn't, it's unlikely that anyone would be able to voluntarily toss the Ring in the Cracks of Doom, not because of temptation, but because of the sheer power of the Ring in that location. Only the Ring's own curse upon Gollum, and Gollum's own broken oath, and perhaps some intervention by Providence, made the destruction of the Ring possible.
So what about Gandalf and Galadriel? Were they tempted? Yes, but again the temptation was within themselves, and not within the Ring. Both Gandalf and Galadriel had powerful rings already, and knew they could wield them. They may well have believed that with the One Ring they really could defeat Sauron, although in a letter Tolkien expresses doubt about whether anyone but Gandalf the White really would have had that power.
This is very different from Aragorn and Faramir. Aragorn may have some ability to perform magic, as when he does something with the Morgul blade and when he heals with athelas. More likely he is acting as a priest-king, calling on a Higher Power. He is not, at any rate, as used to wielding magic as Gandalf or Galadriel. It's not his first choice. And Faramir, as far as I can tell, has no magic at all, and no desire for any. To use a Dungeons and Dragons analogy, they are more paladin than wizard, and therefore have no desire for the Ring.
Furthermore Aragorn has the benefit of Isildur's fate to guide him. He knows that the Ring betrayed Isildur, and presumably regrets his ancestor's inability to destroy the Ring when he had the chance. So I don't think Aragorn has any inner desire to take the Ring, and without that the Ring has nothing to work with, if indeed it tries to work on Aragorn at all.
Note also that Frodo offers the Ring to Gandalf and Galadriel, while he does not offer it to Aragorn or Faramir. That also may have something to do with the way Gandalf and Galadriel react. But later Frodo does offer the Ring to Aragorn, at the Council of Elrond, and there too Aragorn shows no desire to take the Ring -- unlike Boromir, for example.
'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn; and if by life or death I can save you, I will.' This is a very moving and profound oath. In the movie it is echoed in the moment between Frodo and Aragorn at Amon Hen. At that point, however, Frodo has evaded Boromir's attempt to seize the Ring, and is acutely conscious of how it works on people.
2. Comment, if you wish, on this moment in book and film.
I always liked it when they incorporated Tolkien's language in the film. I like it in both contexts, but I find it more moving here, where Strider is first asking Frodo to accept him, rather than at the Council of Elrond, when it is much easier for Frodo to say yes.
3. Why (in your opinion) is he carrying the broken Narsil? Does he have another, working sword?
I like Darkstone's theory that he is simply transporting the sword from some place of safekeeping. I would guess that he does have another sword, although he may not be wearing it in Bree. Narsil he would keep with him at all times.
4. Did he sneak off to visit Aragorn in May? How far is it from Bag End to Sarn Ford?
Gandalf was a free agent and I'm sure he took many walks or rides on his horse, although he may have traveled at night so as to avoid prying eyes. He probably arranged to meet Aragorn at Sarn Ford ahead of time to keep him up to date.
5. Tidings had gone far and wide that Gandalf was missing... Where??? Not in Bree, not in the Shire. Is Gildor is the only source of this news? Who else knows Gandalf's missing, and how?
Gildor is Aragorn's source. But Gildor told Frodo he would spread the news. Bombadil also had heard, as we learn either in LotR or in Bombadil Goes Boating or both. The Riders are pretty conspicuous. Even Butterbur was aware of them. And although Butterbur had forgotten to tell Frodo about Gandalf, he had been looking for someone to take Gandalf's message for some time during the summer, so news of Gandalf's disappearance was quite old by now. Gildor, however, may have been the only one aware of Gandalf's missed assignation with Frodo, but again, Gildor spread that news among the wandering elves and rangers.
Now Pippin can't keep his eyes open, but least he thinks of Merry, though mostly in irritation.
6. How can he be sleepy having just learned what we've learned? Why aren't the hobbits more concerned about Merry? Are they still not taking this seriously enough?
No, the hobbits still are not taking this seriously enough. It is their strength and their weakness. Pippin, in particular, has a hard time taking anything seriously. Even among the hobbits, he is the least likely to worry about anything.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jan 11 2008, 6:24pm)
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 11 2008, 7:22pm
Post #7 of 45
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Although I've no idea where to find a reference, I'm pretty sure that in the book the shards consist of just two pieces: the hilt with a piece of blade, and the rest of the blade. So it wouldn't be like trying to carry around the movie-shards, which, even if you managed not to lose any, would rattle around and get all jammed up in the bottom of your scabbard!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 11 2008, 8:12pm
Post #8 of 45
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I remember reading it was just two pieces too.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 11 2008, 8:16pm
Post #9 of 45
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"A few creatures came and looked at him when the fire had died away. A fox passing through the wood on business of his own stopped several minutes and sniffed. 'A Wizard!' he thought. 'Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a Wizard sleeping out of doors under a tree. There's something mighty queer behind this.' He was quite right, but he never found out any more about it because Gandalf zapped him."
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jan 11 2008, 10:01pm
Post #10 of 45
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Odds are he's slept out more than a few times.//
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"Are you frightened?"
Discussing "Strider" Jan. 6-11 in the Reading Room
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jan 12 2008, 1:31am
Post #11 of 45
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I am certain that Aragorn is armed.
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He would be a fool not to be, although I would assume that wielded ferociously enough even the broken hilt of Narsil might still be very deadly. I think that the movie has it more-or-less right: the shards of Narsil are kept in a museum-like monument in Rivendell, but Aragorn has them right now for several reasons: first, they are his; second, to prove his identity to the hobbits (and Gandalf), and third, this is a momentous occasion, and perhaps Aragorn expects some temptation from the Ring and hopes that having Narsil with him will help him resist it.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jan 12 2008, 1:47am
Post #12 of 45
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He hardly needs to prove his identity to Gandalf.
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And I'm still not persuaded that they're all that significant to Frodo, either.
Darkstone's conjecture that he's carrying them from storage in Fornost to Rivendell for re-forging, since the time has apparently come, is the most appealing I've heard so far.
"Are you frightened?"
Discussing "Strider" Jan. 6-11 in the Reading Room
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jan 12 2008, 8:10am
Post #13 of 45
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Yes he does need to prove his identity to Gandalf!
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I expect that Aragorn knows a password or two that would identify him to Gandalf, but other than that, Sauron could set a trap for Gandalf just as he has for Aragorn, using a fake Aragorn as bait. So even though the two know each-other, some means of preventing a doppleganger from stepping in and filling the role might be a good idea!
The shards of Narsil would not be kept in Fornost, IMO. They need to be somewhere safe, ordinarily, which Fornost isn't (Fornost has been sacked, anyway). Rivendell, by contrast, is safe.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 12 2008, 9:17am
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"Seek for the sword that was broken...
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in Imladris it dwells."
Perhaps that's a bit of further evidence to back up your theory that the shards are normally kept in Rivendell (I haven't looked to see it it's in the timeline, but Faramir's dream must have occurred well before the current episode).
I subscribe to the school of thought that says that Aragorn is carrying Narsil because this is a momentous occasion - in fact when Strider pulls out his broken sword, it must be the first time that Narsil and the Ring have been in such close confrontation since the fatal moment when Sauron was defeated.
I had never realized just how closely and physically the Sword and the Ring are connected until those iconic repeated movie shots of the fateful moment sank into my brain. The Sword captured the Ring, but the Ring shattered the Sword, and eventually, through Isildur's downfall, also shattered the line of Kings that the sword represents. So perhaps it's not surprising that Aragorn carries the sword to his fateful first meeting with the Ring.
On the level of storytelling, this is one place where Tolkien's love of keeping things mysterious works against the power of the moment. Strider drawing a broken sword looks rather silly, but in fact it's a moment of great meaning. On the other hand, this gives us a very satisfying example of how something can look silly at first sight, yet be quite different once you know the background. We mostly see Aragorn through the hobbits' eyes, and so, like them, we have to revisit our impressions each time we learn more about him. Like them, we'll eventually understand that he's "gold", even though we see no sign of "glitter" right now!.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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a.s.
Doriath
Jan 12 2008, 3:08pm
Post #15 of 45
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the Ring only ensnares those claiming "ownership" of it
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I can't figure out exactly which subthread to answer here, so I'm just going to post a general reaction I'm having, about the Ring and "temptation" and Strider "threatening" Sam and the hobbits, etc.
The Ring may tempt some at some times. The Ring has agency, and is somehow able to work on others for its self-perceived benefit, so that it is "found" by Bilbo at the right moment, etc.
But it really only "tempts" Gollum (at first--with Deogol by the river) in the usual sense: it's a pretty thing.
And it "tempts" Bilbo in sort of the same way, as he puts his hand on the pretty thing down deep in the dark and pockets it.
So maybe the agency of the Ring is displayed in its ability to make some "notice" it, rather than tempting them in some extra-ordinary way.
It may tempt others who know about its history also in the usual way: they might be tempted to use it as a tool for enhancing their own power (for good or evil). That is, it is tempting but it is not evoking this temptation through some kind of action; it's not sending out "tempation vibes".
But it only corrupts those claiming ownership of it: Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo. "Corrupts" each according to each, maybe, and not all in the exactly same manner.
So I don't think the Ring is acting here; I don't think it's "tempting" Aragorn to grab it at all. I think Aragorn is just fed up a bit with the hobbits and showing his power here to advance the action, cut through some of the delay and get on with things.
So, while the parallels to Faramir's actions later are striking (and I believe written that way on purpose for us to notice) I don't think either Faramir or Aragorn are (in these interactions) being "tempted" by the Ring. Aragorn has the advantage over Faramir in knowing about the Ring for a longer time, understanding from Gandalf about the Ring and its evil, and having had time to contemplate being in the presence of such a thing. We see Faramir sort of working-it-all-out on the spur of the moment.
My thoughts.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jan 12 2008, 7:57pm
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I dispute that only those who hold the Ring are corrupted by it. Saruman is among the most corrupted person in the story, and Denethor is fairly corrupt also, admittedly less so than Saruman. I think that just thinking about the Ring is enough to corrupt some people.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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a.s.
Doriath
Jan 12 2008, 8:40pm
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they actively want to own the Ring
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I admit the lines aren't clear cut, but there appears to be something more than just physically touching the Ring or being in its presence that is tempting. It seems like a kind of claim to be "owner" or "user" of the Ring that corrupts. Frodo is the only one who claims that Ring simply because there appears to be no other choice. Both Gollum and Bilbo claim the Ring is "theirs", and Saruman covets the Ring for ownership/use.
Something like that.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 12 2008, 9:21pm
Post #18 of 45
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I mean the idea that the shards of Narsil helped Aragorn resist the temptation; not only as a talisman, but as a reminder of what he might lose if he claimed the Ring (the best way to combat addiction is by prevention).
In fact, I've always felt the movies could have made a far more powerful statement, if while Aragorn was being tempted, they would have shown the Evenstar in proximity (not crudely, like getting his hand entangled with it, but clearly present). It would have echoed the Phial of Galadriel helping Frodo resist temptation in "the Stairs of Cirith Ungol", but would also be a comment on the qualitative difference between Aragorn and Boromir in resisting the temptation of the Ring - but one which could be taken both ways. Does anyone around here feel the same?
On the same vein, Nenya clearly enhanced the temptation of Galadriel. Do you think it also gaved her a greater power to resist?
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jan 12 2008, 9:36pm
Post #19 of 45
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I don't think that Galadriel is tempted on account of Nenya, nor Gandalf on account of Narya. However, both of them know how powerful the One Ring is, and know what they could do with it, including things for great good... but they also know that it would not stop there. Now, the two of them may know what the Ring is and what it can do on account of the fact that they possess and wield Elven Rings themselves, but I don't think that said Elven Rings tempt them. They may help them resist, but it's still up to them.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 12 2008, 9:54pm
Post #20 of 45
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What is the difference between 'temptation' and 'possession'?
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Am I correct in assuming you mean that after some time, the bearer becones addicted to it?
Anyway, Gandalf says at the Council that the Ring is a danger even if kept hid, because the temptation to use it would be too great for even the Wise to resist. I'm sure it is; the knowledge of such a great source of power at hand, when you need desparately to bolster your waning strength - is that not a temptation in itself?
Gandalf says to Frodo that the Ring's temptation on him would be through pity. In the movie, it is Faramir who is tempted through positive feelings - love for his father (I wonder how many of those who dislike movie-Faramir have noticed this parallel? To be honest, I did just now). Of course, the Devil needs something to work with; but usually he starts with admirable qualities, twisting and preverting them into something totally unrecognisable. Most of the worlds' worst tyrants, had a clear conscience. "There need not, there will not be, any real change in our designs; only in our means" as Saruman said.
Gandalf and Elrond belived it possible to cast the One into the Fire; and Elrond was there, when Isildur missed his chance. Do you think they were wrong? Or that there plan was "that a halfling should walk blindly into Mordor" (Boromir) without even a chance to destroy the Ring once he got there? Did they believe at that time the Powers will help?
In the movies, your claim seems valid - Elrond feels the whole race of Men are weak and cannot succeed where Isildur failed, but Frodo has shown extraordinary resilience to the Ring's evil, and might have a chance. He could have been wrong, and it wasn't by much. But in the books, I think Elrond did really believe it was possible.
And about the Cracks of Doom - I've read the explanation you mentioned here. as to why the Ring was destroyed, some time ago. It made lots of sense to me at first, but now I feel less than convinced. But I expect once we get to that chapter, this question will be fought by greater scholars than myself.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jan 12 2008, 9:55pm
Post #21 of 45
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It isn't clear that the Ring causes Saruman or Denethor to become corrupt. Or Boromir, or even Gollum, for that matter. It's equally possible that the seeds of corruption were already working in them, making them fertile ground for the Ring's influence. That influence is more conceptual than physical (like radiation), and so wouldn't be a matter of physical proximity so much as a desire to wield it.
People who are fundamentally good, including Bilbo, Frodo, Aragorn, and Faramir, are relatively unscathed. Frodo does begin to suffer, and eventually succumbs, but only after long possession in geographical proximity to its center of strength.
"Are you frightened?"
Discussing "Strider" Jan. 6-11 in the Reading Room
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jan 12 2008, 10:04pm
Post #22 of 45
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In the first place, I don't think Aragorn was really tempted by the Ring. If he had been, Narsil could equally well have served as a reminder of how much there is to gain by its possession.
The Phial didn't help Frodo resist temptation, it helped him resist Shelob, and gave him the courage to persevere through the tunnel. And I feel the movies gave the Evenstar too much significance as it is: a lot of people were seriously confused by the vision of it shattering.
"Are you frightened?"
Discussing "Strider" Jan. 6-11 in the Reading Room
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jan 12 2008, 10:13pm
Post #23 of 45
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Everyone has intentions and desires that can be used by evil to do evil things.
The thing that is curious to me is when Saruman tells Gandalf that "There need not, there will not be, any real change in our designs; only in our means", he has already changed his designs. Gandalf does not want Men to rise to prominence in a world that is basically destroyed, as Melkor would, but only populated by Men and not Orcs. The implication is that Saruman originally would not have wanted that either. But now, Saruman's chief race is orcs!
It leaves me curious to think of what would have happened if, say, Galadriel had taken the Ring when it was offered to her. The words that Galadriel uses that would describe herself with the Ring are "beautiful" and at the same time "terrible", comparing her would-be self to storms and lightning. This is a much different flavor of evil than what Saruman does! The question is whether Galadriel would eventually become as evil as Sauron herself, as Saruman apparently has, or if she would remain Elvish, if at the same time tyranical.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 12 2008, 10:30pm
Post #24 of 45
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The phial helped Frodo resist the temptation
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to put on the Ring when the Nazgul King passed him outside Minas Morgul.
... as Frodo watched with his mind, not willing it but in suspense (as if he looked on some old story far away), it moved the hand inch by inch towards the chain upon his neck. Then his own will stirred; slowly it forced the hand back. and set it to find another thing, a thing lying hidden near his breast. Cold and hard it seemed as his grip closed on it: the phial of Galadriel, so long treasured, and almost forgotten till that hour. As he touched it, for a while all thought of the Ring was banished from his mind. He sighed and bent his head.
The Phial didn't help Frodo resist temptation
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 12 2008, 11:02pm
Post #25 of 45
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Thank you! That was exactly what I've meant
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Although, having read the relevant page again (always a beneficial thing to do before posting), I've remembered that it wasn't exactly temptation, but rather an outside commanding Will.
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