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Dragonrnbw
Ossiriand
Nov 3 2013, 6:57pm
Post #1 of 29
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Which war is Thranduil talking about? *Spoliers?*
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In the F*** mag interview Lee Pace says this about Thranduil:
He’s more complex, he’s very complex. Maybe because I’m the actor who plays him, I understand him and I agree with him. I agree with everything he does. In the prologue, he turns away when the dragon comes. Would you do any differently? This is a dragon. He knows. He’s fought dragons, he was part of the big serpent wars, he knows how hard they are to kill.
What 'Serpent wars" is he talking about? If he is 3000 years old - as per PJ - the only battle he would be alive to participate in that I can think, of is the Battle of the Last Alliance. I don't remember any Dragons in that one. In fact I can't remember ANY dragons in the SA. Only the First and Third Age.
Confused???
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for thou are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
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Captain Salt
Dor-Lomin
Nov 3 2013, 7:04pm
Post #2 of 29
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Perhaps they've made Thranduil an inhabitant of Gondolin rather than Doriath?
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Weren't there rumors that Gondolin would somehow play into DoS? That would certainly give Thranduil extra backstory/incentive to not allow Smaug to be woken for fear of us flying amok as in the days of a long ago age.
My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
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haarp
Ossiriand
Nov 3 2013, 7:10pm
Post #3 of 29
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I can't find anything called the serpent wars, either. Has to be Gondolin he's talking about.
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Nov 3 2013, 7:12pm
Post #4 of 29
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but was not smaug "flying amok" before destroying Erebor??
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he's only been sleeping for 60 years right? so before his attack on the lonely mountain he had to have been flying around..
take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!
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Dragonrnbw
Ossiriand
Nov 3 2013, 7:24pm
Post #5 of 29
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Thrandul was born at the end of the second age
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Per PJ. States he is 3000 years old. Lee Pace also restates this in the interview. So Gondolin would be out of the question - he wasn't born then. And he states he fought in them so he has to actually BE there.
I can't figure it out 
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for thou are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
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chris10112
Nevrast
Nov 3 2013, 7:24pm
Post #6 of 29
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Thranduil grew up in Doriath, didn't he?
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Presumably, he was alive during the War of Wrath.
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Captain Salt
Dor-Lomin
Nov 3 2013, 7:38pm
Post #7 of 29
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Well, he wasn't actively assaulting the Free Peoples before the events of TH...
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as far as we know. Perhaps Smaug had been asleep for a good while before waking and attacking Erebor.
My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
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Captain Salt
Dor-Lomin
Nov 3 2013, 7:42pm
Post #8 of 29
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Gondolin may have occupied a different span of time in the film chronology, however...
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if not Gondolin, must be a reference to the War of Wrath or some made-up event (ALA Elrond's rather arbitrary figure of 400 years for the peace mentioned at the White Council meeting - thought he might have been referring to Gondor's wars here)?
My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
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Bladerunner
Mithlond
Nov 3 2013, 7:51pm
Post #9 of 29
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Smaug may have been plundering other dwarf kingdoms or sleeping in another horde to the east before sacking Erebor.//
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Nov 3 2013, 7:52pm
Post #10 of 29
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I am sorry, I can't stop laughing. Is that a direct quote? Maybe there was a loss in translation, since I heard the magazine is Asian., Ahhh, man. Whew! I think back to that rumour about Smaug, Gothmog (the REAL Gothmog, the Balrog not mr. malicious potato head), and Gondolin... maybe that extra wasn't spinning yarns? In the F*** mag interview Lee Pace says this about Thranduil: He’s more complex, he’s very complex. Maybe because I’m the actor who plays him, I understand him and I agree with him. I agree with everything he does. In the prologue, he turns away when the dragon comes. Would you do any differently? This is a dragon. He knows. He’s fought dragons, he was part of the big serpent wars, he knows how hard they are to kill. What 'Serpent wars" is he talking about? If he is 3000 years old - as per PJ - the only battle he would be alive to participate in that I can think, of is the Battle of the Last Alliance. I don't remember any Dragons in that one. In fact I can't remember ANY dragons in the SA. Only the First and Third Age. Confused???
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Aitieuriskon
Menegroth
Nov 3 2013, 7:58pm
Post #11 of 29
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Perhaps he's referencing the cold-drake attacks that drove the dwarves out of the Grey Mountains back to Ereborfrom 2589-2590? They're not called "wars" in the appendices, and they occur in the far north, but that's the only third-age reference to dragons I can think of in that part of the world apart from Smaug. It would also explain why they're referred to as "serpent wars", since they seem to have involved at least one cold-drake.
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
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Captain Salt
Dor-Lomin
Nov 3 2013, 8:00pm
Post #12 of 29
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They're setting up an animated TV spin-off: "The Hobbit: The Serpent Wars".
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Featuring a younger Thranduil with a tween Tauriel as his "apprentice".  
My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Nov 3 2013, 8:01pm)
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Escapist
Mithlond
Nov 3 2013, 8:30pm
Post #14 of 29
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One of the hardest tricks to pull off
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in adapting TH to a movie format is the way that so much is hand-waved and referred to by a narrator without great detail or specifics in dialogue, etc.
There are places in the book that refer to some degree of loss being incurred by both men and elves being reflected in the dragon horde. While detail is provided in the book about the specifics of this for the men of Laketown (many of which are decendents of the ruined city of Dale), like so much of the rest of the elven part of this story, the losses for the elves are referred to and hand-waved. Whatever they are prove to be enough for them to stake a claim on a part of the treasure but the details are not specified. Smaug certainly knows of the elves and some specific bits of the treasure in Smaug's horde are certainly related to elves and most probably owned by elves at a time (like Bilbo's mithril coat for example).
Furthermore, Smaug may have been among the biggest and most long-lived of his kind but he comes from the Withered Heath which I think is a place of dragons in general.
I'd say it could be a reference to Smaug's initial marauding that led to Thranduil's elves wanting a piece of the treasure AND some bits of their treasure being found in Smaug's pile.
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Nov 3 2013, 9:00pm
Post #15 of 29
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And i think he knew he was the last of his kind
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The Last Serpent 
take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!
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Cillendor
Menegroth
Nov 3 2013, 10:31pm
Post #16 of 29
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No, he was born in Doriath in the First Age.
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Per PJ. States he is 3000 years old. Lee Pace also restates this in the interview. So Gondolin would be out of the question - he wasn't born then. And he states he fought in them so he has to actually BE there. I can't figure it out |
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Dragonrnbw
Ossiriand
Nov 3 2013, 10:44pm
Post #17 of 29
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Here is the interview that states Thranduil is only 3000 years old. So he was born early in the second age.
'That's Thranduil - he's a wounded King in a paradise that's surrounded by a wasteland. It's a dangerous place; he's a dangerous, dangerous King.'
'I think we've solved a lot of riddles in the book about the character (Thranduil). Do you know the cartoon? Do you remember the cartoon? You know how the Elf King was depicted in a really nasty way? This Elf King is different.' ‘He’s very complex. Maybe because I’m the actor who plays him, I understand him and I agree with him. I agree with everything he does.’
'When the dwarves come through the wood to reclaim their throne, their fortune, their culture - which I, not as the guy playing Thranduil, I find their story very moving, that they're trying to reclaim their homeland. But what Thranduil is saying is that their going to wake up the dragon. And like I said, he knows how hard they are to kill, he's fought in the serpent wars, and he doesn't believe these thirteen dwarves will be able to kill it. So he stops them - puts them in the dungeons. I agree with that. I wouldn't do any differently ’It’s like - ‘no kids, your gonna stay here.’
'Thats what I was very interested in finding in Thranduil - that complexity. What are the gems that he wants in the mountain?' What is the reason that he shuts down his doors and avoids the conflict in the very wild Middle Earth around him? He is one of those legendary warriors still living in Middle Earth. He fought in the Great Alliance, he fought alongside his father who was another great, great warrior.’He is a great Elf, in a long, long magnificent tradition of Elves. He knows how it was done in the old days. And he’s choosing not to get involved, he’s choosing not to fight, and I find that very interesting.’
'The elves are not like people. They're like tigers and blizzards and old, old trees. 'And Orlando Bloom reminded me of this when we came back to shoot this time. He was like - 'the elves are always different. They're different than the way we think.' That helps because, you know, I don't think in the way that a 3,000 year old elf-lord thinks.' ‘He understands love differently, he understands life differently.’
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for thou are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
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flameofudun
Menegroth
Nov 3 2013, 10:56pm
Post #18 of 29
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They actually are referred to as wars I believe in rotk appendices. Either this, and thranduil has somehow participated in this war, or a small scale, minor, war with the dragons and elves, maybe in the black mountains, of mirkwood?
''We are very dangerous over short distances''
-Gimli
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Elk2013
Lindon
Nov 4 2013, 12:19am
Post #19 of 29
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In sneak peak Thranduil had a line like 'I've faced the great serpents of north', maybe he was talking about the same 'serpent war'?
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Plurmo
Nargothrond
Nov 4 2013, 12:34am
Post #20 of 29
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The Serpent Wars was the name of
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the brief period when Aredhel in her twelfth escapade from Gondolin in search of adventure joined the personal cult of a certain wizard Thulsa Doom and was eventually, after much fall of blood, brought back to a red faced Ecthelion at the gate by a hitherto unknown man with strange accent and uncouth behaviour named Ahnold the barbarian.
When questioned about the wizard's army the Ahnold dismissed them as just another throng of devotees under influence of liquor, which he, in his very strange accent, named a "thrangduil," giving rise to the legend that a certain Thrangduil was involved in the Serpent Wars. Unfortunately the filmmakers are less knowledgeable about Middle-earth historical events than us and made a mess of things.
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MatthewJer18
Nargothrond
Nov 4 2013, 12:50am
Post #21 of 29
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Changing around events to flesh out a character =/= a lack of knowledge
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Unless you were personally involved in every single scripting session with the filmmakers and can tell us exactly what went on, that is...
I personally don't think it's that significant of an offense. We don't even know what events are being referred to at the moment; it could very well make greater sense once we do. As another poster has noted, certain events in Middle-earth history were only mentioned in passing by Tolkien to fill out a believable timeline, never fully expanded upon. There's enough that wasn't filled in to permit creative license. If changing around (or expanding upon) certain events a little makes for a more complex Thranduil, so be it, IMO.
(This post was edited by MatthewJer18 on Nov 4 2013, 12:54am)
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Nov 4 2013, 3:41am
Post #23 of 29
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lol. Too bad its 500 years later than in the actual history timeline. lol
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"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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BornOutOfTheWest
Ossiriand
Nov 4 2013, 8:55am
Post #24 of 29
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Yeah, beginning to wonder the same about that rumour but I'm sure DanielLB discredited it at the time...
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Eleniel
Dor-Lomin
Nov 4 2013, 9:51am
Post #25 of 29
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That's 3000 years old in the movie-verse only...
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Which would mean according to canon Thranduil was barely old enough to have taken part in the Battle of Dagorlad!
In book canon, Cillendor is quite correct that, although Tolkien doesn't give a birth date for Thranduil, there are hints that he grew up in Doriath under Thingol; he clearly lived in Lindon with Oropher at the end of the First Age, and they travelled eastwards to establish the realm of Greenwood at Amon Lanc (later Dol Guldur) early in the Second Age (which lasted nearly 3500 years itself.) So book canon Thranduil should be more like 7000 years old!
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
(This post was edited by Eleniel on Nov 4 2013, 9:58am)
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