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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 16 2013, 9:08am
Post #1 of 97
(2192 views)
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Silmarillion Discussion 2013, Chapter 18: Of The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
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Hi if you’re new to these discussions!
These chapter discussions are open to everyone -- all you need is to have read the book and have an opinion. Its also OK to have more than one book (or more than one opinion). This is absolutely not a series of threads for experts only - everyone's opinions and questions are welcome. feel very free to jump right in. : )
So, off we go-
A lot of this Chapter is given to a description of warfare, at a fairly strategic level - we’re looking at troops marching about on the map, rather than all that often getting down to the level of individual deeds. I suspect that the strategy aspect will fascinate some, and bore others. So I want immediately to divide this discussion into two. One part for a military historian (or armchair general) type of view, and one that will keep the strategical and tactical stuff down, so that it doesn’t crowd out other issues.
I’m going to do this by posting my “other issues” ideas in this post, containing a fairly brief and un-analysed description of the military events. I’ll then immediately post a separate thread for discussion by the strategy-minded. My intention is that those of us who want to play armchair or tabletop general will then have a separate thread for the purpose, without crowding out those who find the movements of armies on the map a big yawn.
There are plenty of “other issues”. Certainly, as in any war, a lot of significant stuff happens as a result of the fighting. Wars send people to unexpected places (Beren or Húrin in this case). Individuals or groups form alliances or friendships which would otherwise not happen (Húrin again or the ring and oath that Barahir gets from Finrod in return for his help) . Or solid seeming arrangements break down, leading to unexpected crises and opportunities. Events can stand or fall on a knife-edge. Everything changes so fast (in the morning Ard-galen is peaceful prairie, patrolled by the elvish cavalry, by nightfall, burned sooty survivors are falling back and regrouping in the hills, while the wildfires rage on the plains). Individuals and groups can rise or fall spectacularly in their standing. Many of those things can be seen in this chapter. One way to look at the significance on the overall plot of the book is that this episode establishes critical bonds of trust and obligation between certain Elves and Edain. By the end of the Chapter Barahir’s house has the “Ring of Barahir” from Finrod, and with it Finrod’s oath of assistance. Húrin and Huor have befriended Turgon (and Húrin has gone on to become king). And Beren is making his cautious way out of Dorthonion.
There’s a further angle. Tolkien was of course, a veteran of the First World War. We can look for echoes of his own experiences and knowledge in the imaginary conflict he’s created here.
A brief description of the war is needed here, I think, even for those of us who don’t want to worry about troop movements more than we have to. Please feel free to skip this bit if you’ve got the events clear in your head already, or if a summary is otherwise not very useful to you right now! As it happens, that’s something I find difficult to do from the “annals” style of the chapter. But maybe I’m just not that annal-y retentive. :
Key events of the war
Beleriand has been in a sort of Cold War for several hundred years. Both sides now ponder offensives. Fingolfin, the senior leader of the Noldor, ponders an attack on Angband, but cannot rally sufficient support for it. We’re told that his assault would have been futile in any case - the elves and their Edain allies (henceforth I’ll call them together “the Allies”) have little understanding just how powerful Morgoth and his forces are.
On the other side of the doors of Angband, Morgoth is also poised to strike, and launches a Winter campaign “450 years after the coming of Fingolfin”. This is the Dagor Bragollach, or Battle of Sudden Flame, an offensive that lasts until the Spring (that’s its duration as a major offensive, though the fighting never thereafter fully stops). Morgoth launches his attack with sudden rivers of fire. These burn and level the ground of Ard-galen, catching many of its defenders and turning it into a land of choking dust. Then Morgoth’s forces - including dragons, balrogs and orcs - emerge.
Even this brief summary will be much easier with a map. If you don’t have one handy, I suggest a look at this one: http://lotr.wikia.com/...:Dagorbragollach.gif
Morgoth’s forces strike South, Southeast and Southwest, against the various elven Princes (arrows 1-4 on the map). The Allies are driven back through Ard-galen and Lothlann, and fall back on their mountain bases. Morgoth takes the Pass of Aglon, which allows their forces a route South past the highland region of Dorthonion, which is also attacked.
Finrod and a force emerge from the hidden fortress of Nargothrond, but are driven back. Finrod himself becomes cut off from his troops, is rescued by the Edain troops of Barahir, to whom he presents a ring and swears an oath of abiding friendship. Of the other hidden elves, Turgon remains hidden in Gondolin, and Thingol in his woods of Doriath.
Having saved Finrod’s neck, Barahir then leads the fighting in Dorthonion “contesting the land foot by foot”. But eventually the bulk of his people retreat to Dor-Lomin, leaving a guerilla force including Barahir’s son, Beren.
Fingolfin, despairing of an Allied victory, decides to settle the matter personally. He rides to Angband and challenges Morgoth to single combat. After a heroic battle, Morgoth kills Fingolfin, but not before Fingolfin has wounded his enemy seven times, and then finally severely wounded Morgoth’s foot. Fingolfin’s body is rescued by an eagle, who scars Morgoth’s face. Fingon becomes high King in Fingolfin’s place.
The second big offensive happens two years later. Since Dagor Bragollach the Allies have been able to hold the western pass about the sources of the Sirion (that is, the pass between Dorthonion and the mountains bordering Hithlum. They are aided (not clear how) by Ulmo. Then an attack by Sauron (shown as the dotted arrow 5 on the map http://lotr.wikia.com/...:Dagorbragollach.gif ) captures the confusingly named Minas Tirith (which in this period is the fortress on the island of Tol Sirion, in the Sirion Valley).
This completes Morgoth’s breakout through the natural barriers to the north of Beleriand. His forces can now pass Dorthonion to the west (down the Sirion) or to the East, through the Pass of Aglon. Morgoth’s forces surround Doriath.
Here things settle a little - Morgoth is described as using spies and trying to foment treachery and distrust, but there is no new major offensive to describe.
Meanwhile,the Edain living in the Forest of Brethil (which is to the South West of Dorthonion, West of Thingol’s Kingdom in Doriath) are aided by Thingol’s forces. They win victories which prevent further orcish advance across the River Teiglin, so protecting Nargothrond.
Among the Edain in the forest of Brethil are Húrin and Huor, who have a remarkable adventure. Separated from their troops, they are protected from capture by a mist sent by Ulmo. Then they are rescued by eagle and taken to Gondolin, where they are welcomed by Turgon, and stay for nearly a year. Eventually, however, it is agreed that they can return to their people. They are flown back by eagle and therefore return without knowing the location of the secret city they had visited. They also have sworn an oath not to tell of their adventures, which they immediately honour by refusing to explain to their Father where they’ve been. At least they tell him that’s because of an oath of silence (“ I don’t know, kids these days: gone missing for months, come back wearing someone else’s clothes, won’t explain - worried sick, I was”.)
Turgon attempts to send ambassadors by ship to Valinor, but they are unable to cross the seas to plead for help, thanks to the Keep Out precautions the Valar put in place in Chapter 11. Otherwise the people of Gondolin continue to take no part in the war.
A period of comparative quiet ensues. Morgoth is aware that Turgon and Finrod are out there somewhere, but cannot learn much about them. Both sides are licking wounds and regaining strength. Then, seven years after Dagor Bragollach, Morgoth launches an third assault, this time Westward into Hithlum. On the map http://lotr.wikia.com/...:Dagorbragollach.gif , the attack must pretty much have come once more along the arrow marked (1). This time, Morgoth’s forces break through Hithlum’s eastern mountain borders and there are battles on the plains. Fingon, leading the Allies here, is having a hard time of it until he is re-inforced from the sea by Círdan. This turns the tide of the battle, and Morgoth’s forces are pursued back “as far as the Iron Mountains”. At this point Húrin becomes king of the Edain living in Dor-lomin.
Meanwhile, the last Allied guerilla resistance in Dorthonion is destroyed, and Beren son of Barahir, is the sole survivor escaping into Doriath.
As I say, a separate thread will cover my suggestions for a “military” discussion - so why not reply to that thread if you want to critique Morgoth’s generalship etc. I’m about to post some replies to myself (Should my family be worried? - “He spends a lot of time in a Tolkien forum replying to his own posts...”) with some possible points we might want to debate.
Before I close this post though, many thanks to Brethil and to CuriousG for reading a draft of this to help me eliminate any howlers which are not Sauron’s werewolves. I felt there was a reasonable chance of writing Finrod where I meant Fingol (or Fingolfin?), or that I hadn’t found all the places where I put Doriath instead of Dorthonion or Björk instead of Beör- the kind of thing which is hugely confusing and distracting in what is supposed to be a handy summary. So thanks guys!. But please blame only me for any stupidities that are left, or which snuck back in!
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jun 16 2013, 9:13am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 16 2013, 9:15am
Post #2 of 97
(1991 views)
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Tolkien's personal and literary experiences of war, and their influence on this chapter
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There’s something very modern about the start of the war - a vast and terrifying preliminary bombardment before the attackers go over the top reminds me of the First World War. As do “Battles” which last weeks and take place over big areas. But then we move to the one-on-one scale and very old-fashioned single combat between Fingolfin and Morgoth. Do you agree? Does the big campaign have its roots in Tolkien's military experience and the single combat reflect his passion for old heroic myths?
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 16 2013, 9:16am
Post #3 of 97
(1997 views)
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What do we think of Fingolfin’s challenge? Is he motivated by despair, or on the contrary thinks this is worth a try only because he’s still blind to the potency of his enemy? Or was it a bold and risky idea which might have worked? Was there any chance he could win? If he had killed Morgoth, what do you think would have happened - would he merely have promoted Sauron to the #1 Public Enemy spot early?
Do you like the idea that even the orcs don’t boast about this fight? Is that an odd sort of orcish honour, or was the fight just too darned close to remember comfortably? Or something else?
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 16 2013, 9:19am
Post #4 of 97
(1983 views)
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We the audience already know from Chapter 11 that Valinor has been hidden, and so that Turgon’s embassy to Valinor is unlikely to get there. Is this the point where the Noldor finally realise what they are up against and that the Valar really meant it about them being on their own? (Well, officially on their own, Ulmo is doing his stuff...). What effect, if any does that have - on the characters,; on us the audience?
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 16 2013, 9:20am
Post #5 of 97
(1987 views)
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Eagles and matters of fate and doom
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How come you can’t get an Eagle when you want one, and then three come along all at once? I suppose there is a danger of over-interpretation whenever the eagles appear - a bird must surely be entitled to build a nest or snatch a sheep without it necessarily meaning Manwë At Work Here. But whether Thorondor is on official duty or not, the eagle snatches Fingolfin’s body from Morgoth, and has a good scratch of Morgoth’s face as well. Someone at least respects Fingolfin’s courage enough to want to save him from being wolf food. Are the Valar, while not yet moved to provide any significant support, still watching and willing to note particular acts of bravery? That reminds me of the behaviour of the Norse or Greco-Roman gods in those mythologies. Someone is also going to a lot of trouble to get Húrin and Huor to Gondolin, and then to arrange an eagle taxi to get them back (thereby neatly avoiding the usual rule that once you know where Gondolin is, you can never leave, in case you betray the secret of its location).
When Finrod swears an oath to Barahir, do you think he remembers his premonition about oaths when Galadriel asked him why he didn't marry (in Chapter 15)? Does he feel the chill but feel he has to swear anyway?
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 16 2013, 10:08am
Post #6 of 97
(1980 views)
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A number of the elvish Princes take little part in the war - Turgon remains hidden in Gondolin, and Finrod turns back quickly. Thingol’s troops appear only when his own kingdom is threatened. Should they be doing more to help out? Or should they be doing exactly what they do?
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 16 2013, 1:08pm
Post #7 of 97
(1984 views)
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What do we think of Fingolfin’s challenge? Is he motivated by despair, or on the contrary thinks this is worth a try only because he’s still blind to the potency of his enemy? Or was it a bold and risky idea which might have worked? Was there any chance he could win? If he had killed Morgoth, what do you think would have happened - would he merely have promoted Sauron to the #1 Public Enemy spot early? It reads like an example of that sort of rage and desperation when one has nothing left to lose. I think he is aware of Morgoth's strength but is so in the moment he is beyond calculating the odds. He didn't do too badly after all, but I don't know if he could have destroyed Morgoth. I don't think so.
Do you like the idea that even the orcs don’t boast about this fight? Is that an odd sort of orcish honour, or was the fight just too darned close to remember comfortably? Or something else? I love this little section - the parallel he draws between the Orcs and the Elves. I do get a sense that the Orcs don't brag because of Fingolfin's bravery, and how much damage he was able to do - plus as you say maybe a bit too close for comfort. We don't get an explanation for the Orcs - the Elves are due to sorrow - but one gets the feeling I think of *some* sort of feeling on their part other than the usual Orcish ugliness. I don't have A.R. with me at work, so I don't know if any editorial changes were made here; but I like the inclusion of that little detail.
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 16 2013, 5:37pm
Post #9 of 97
(1968 views)
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This bit:
Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking Orome himself was come; for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.
It's so written for the ear, I think: if you don't think about speaking it, it seems to have far too many clauses (most of them starting "and"). If you imagine the sound, you get this wonderful sustained crescendo, leading up to that "And Morgoth came."
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 16 2013, 5:51pm
Post #10 of 97
(1971 views)
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[nowime]
There’s something very modern about the start of the war - a vast and terrifying preliminary bombardment before the attackers go over the top reminds me of the First World War. As do “Battles” which last weeks and take place over big areas. But then we move to the one-on-one scale and very old-fashioned single combat between Fingolfin and Morgoth. Do you agree? Does the big campaign have its roots in Tolkien's military experience and the single combat reflect his passion for old heroic myths?
[/nowime]
i cannot help but think tolkien's personal, wwi experiences flavored the strategic map presentation. i think of what it might have been like taking part in a battle.... having little information than "take that hill," then later, after the battle, after the war, getting to see an eagle-eyed view of all that was taking place simultaneously, that one was not privy to, out of need for secrecy or because one was a cog and not a machinist.
it also ties very nicely into maps, which seems to be tolkien's thing, even before his wwi experiences.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 16 2013, 6:01pm
Post #11 of 97
(1967 views)
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The contrast between the madness experienced by the individual soldier and the grand ideas on the map seems to have deepened as the Generals moved from the front line to HQ. some of the best expressions I know are American: perhaps because the American Civil War could be argued to be the first modern war. I'm thinking of The Red Badge Of Courage, but also of this:
If you take a flat map
And move wooden blocks upon it strategically,
The thing looks well, the blocks behave as they should.
The science of war is moving live men like blocks.
And getting the blocks into place at a fixed moment.
But it takes time to mold your men into blocks
And flat maps turn into country where creeks and gullies
Hamper your wooden squares. They stick in the brush,
They are tired and rest, they straggle after ripe blackberries,
And you cannot lift them up in your hand and move them.
It is all so clear in the maps, so clear in the mind,
But the orders are slow, the men in the blocks are slow
To move, when they start they take too long on the way -
The General loses his stars, and the block-men die
In unstrategic defiance of martial law
Because still used to just being men, not block parts.
John Brown's Body, Stephen Vincent Benet
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 16 2013, 6:02pm
Post #12 of 97
(1964 views)
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acting upon the rage of sorrow
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[nowime]
What do we think of Fingolfin’s challenge? Is he motivated by despair, or on the contrary thinks this is worth a try only because he’s still blind to the potency of his enemy? Or was it a bold and risky idea which might have worked? Was there any chance he could win? If he had killed Morgoth, what do you think would have happened - would he merely have promoted Sauron to the #1 Public Enemy spot early?
Do you like the idea that even the orcs don’t boast about this fight? Is that an odd sort of orcish honour, or was the fight just too darned close to remember comfortably? Or something else?
[/nowime]
i think fingolfin's choice was short-sighted, 'tho brave. i cannot call it foolish, because he knew he could not win against a vala, but what was he thinking to accomplish? his death would devastate the noldor.
i think fingolfin was running on almost pure emotion, wanting to lash out -- finally -- at the real enemy, the one behind it all, the +murderer of his father+. when you see with crystal clarity that there is no hope of victory, sometimes issues mutate. the desire to survive (which for an elda is different anyway) might give way for a desire to control one's destiny, and own one's actions. better to go out fighting on one's own terms than to wait upon wait upon wait upon strategies and tactics that will ultimately fail, and better to choose one's own time to die than let the enemy choose it.
fingolfin had no chance of winning. and he knew it. i think if it served a practical purpose, it pricked the valar, reminding them that beings who cannot hope to withstand the enemy in any way fight on regardless, and fight valiantly. a fight that the valar long and repeatedly deferred themselves. i'll +bet+ that when tulkas finds out about fingolfin's battle, his fists clench. perhaps manwe even needs to restrain him from darting over to the mainland.
re orcs --
i don't think the orcs in any way are silent because they're respecting the elves. orcs love to gloat. but in gloating, they'd be taking a risk, because they'd be reminding their master that he suffered grave injuries, and on a certain level, was shamed by his elda opponent.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 16 2013, 6:13pm
Post #13 of 97
(1955 views)
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[nowime]
We the audience already know from Chapter 11 that Valinor has been hidden, and so that Turgon’s embassy to Valinor is unlikely to get there. Is this the point where the Noldor finally realise what they are up against and that the Valar really meant it about them being on their own? (Well, officially on their own, Ulmo is doing his stuff...). What effect, if any does that have - on the characters,; on us the audience?
[/nowime]
i don't think any of the noldor get it.... yet. the only ones who really have gotten it so far are feanor (poof!) and fingolfin.
turgon +may+ get it, but that understanding, i think, is more intellectual, and lacks the emotional understanding experienced by feanor and fingolfin. which is not necessarily a bad thing. both of them were overcome by their emotions. turgon can see that things will not end well, and sends for help. no other of the noldor does this, which is interesting. but perhaps the other noldor have taken the valar at their word -- "we won't help you." which would be a rather sad thing, for aren't the valar supposed to be supplicated to, asked for guidance? what kind of world do the eldar live in when they have no hope of prayers being answered -- because they've been told they won't be?
that seems just as unnatural as miriel's fea remaining forever in the halls of mandos.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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elaen32
Gondor
Jun 16 2013, 8:19pm
Post #14 of 97
(1948 views)
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Why do I find the details of the Sil so hard to retain? I usually have a good memory but I only read this chapter last week and still couldn't remember a lot of it. Maybe it's all the similar sounding names! As soon as I read your summary it started to click into place again,
Anyway- yes, I agree very much that Tolkien was basing this on some of his experiences in WWI. In light of his academic background and love of Anglo Saxon and "DarkAge" mythology, I can imagine him being more interested in the heroic one on one stand. The idea of the knight fighting in hand to hand combat can be perceived as a far more romantic, heroic and generally fairer system of warfare, compared with mass slaughter, including civilians, in one fell swoop by a faceless war "machine". I seem to recall reading somewhere that Tolkien was horrified by the mechanisation and facelessness of modern warfare. Not that more ancient warfare was a picnic of course- in its way it was as horrific as modern warfare, but I think the sheer impersonality of modern warfare, with commands being made far from the site where the war is being fought, makes it seem worse somehow. In this context, Morgoth is like a horrific form of WW1 general, dealing out death from a distance. It is not surprising that Fingolfin acts as he does- there is probably some recognition that he is not going to win this one and will go down with honour. I feel he also wants to visit at least some punishment and harm upon Morgoth for the evil he brings. Also sheer anger at Morgoth "getting away with it", killing many, whilst being safe himself, would make Fingolfin want to fight back. I don't get the feeling that he expects to win. For one thing, Morgoth cannot be "killed" per se, he is a Vala and I'm sure that Fingolfin realises that bringing about Morgoth's destruction by personal combat is not feasible. However, wanting to give him a "taste of his own medicine" when all else seems lost would seem a valid way to bow out to me.
"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 16 2013, 8:20pm
Post #15 of 97
(1952 views)
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Hey, the Orcs aren't in MY living room, why should I care?
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Thanks for Ruining Beleriand for us, Wiz! Or should I thank Morgoth? Or do you two work together? Or should I just settle for thanking you for the masterful chapter write-up?
This chapter raises lots of questions for me. What exactly was Finrod's role? He hastens from the south, gets cut off and rescued, and hastens home again--did he do anything useful? It's not clear. He and Turgon are keeping their kingdoms hidden and armies intact, which makes good strategic sense when you need fresh reserves for surprise attacks, but do they ever get used that way? Not in this war.
I don't think Finrod failed or was a coward, but I'm never sure what he accomplished. And if I were Barahir, I would ask for immediate fulfillment of that oath: help me now! Don't leave me here to fight with a band of twenty. Or shelter my people in those shiny hidden halls of yours if that oath is worth anything.
Like every chapter in this book, this one gives me a reason to make sarcastic remarks to Thingol. "So, you're the High King of Beleriand, and what leadership role did you play when it was ruined? How did you coordinate the defense and the counterattack? You mean to say that you did nothing except wait until the Men of Brethil (your nextdoor neighbors and nominal subjects) asked you to help them?" Contrast him with Cirdan, who is farsighted and takes risks to help others. (Every time Cirdan comes up, he's always doing the right thing.)
Overall, the three Hidden Kingdoms remained hidden and played only minor parts in the war. You have to wonder what those doing the fighting and dying thought of them.
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elaen32
Gondor
Jun 16 2013, 8:34pm
Post #16 of 97
(1951 views)
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Huh, don't get me started on the Valar!
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What is the point of them? They seem to spend long ages turning their backs on a large chunk of Eru's creation, allowing Morgoth to have free rein there. Why doesn't Eru give them all kick up the....? Rant over- mostly, but whilst one can argue that the Noldor have brought some of this upon themselves with the Oath etc, the other inhabitants of M-e have done no wrong, so I cannot understand the almost total rejection of everything outside of Valinor. I think the Noldor do start to realise that there is no way back, except by death, at this point. And I am sure that it terrifies and depresses them. Do they feel they deserve it and feel remorse? I have to say, I'm not very clear on this.
Re the Eagles- it doesn't really make sense for Manwe to send the Eagles but to otherwise ignore the plight of those in Beleriand, but it is not clear who commands them to do so otherwise. They could, I suppose, have a certain amount of autonomy, with Manwe's blessing.
As for Ulmo, he does seem to help out in places, but it is not always clear what he is up to.
"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 16 2013, 8:37pm
Post #17 of 97
(1947 views)
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Nice point that it's written for the ear, Wiz. It's certainly epic in tone and, as Brethil says, Biblical as well. Fingolfin might as well be named King David of Israel and Morgoth be named Lucifer or Goliath.
I sometimes wonder if Tolkien wrote all the big picture strategy material first, then read over it and saw it lacked an individual's perspective, so he added this one-on-one combat? On the individual level, the only real damage ever done to Morgoth was in this personal combat and in Beren&Lu's errand. It almost seems the Noldor should have made this war more personal from the beginning.
The contrast between the two is remarkable in that Morgoth is clearly the more powerful, yet also the only one who's scared. Fingolfin is pure heroic emotion--I don't think he has a rational thought about his odds of winning--and rides out to accomplish in person what his armies have failed to do. Can you imagine Morgoth doing the same? When he loses, he hides, every time! Fingolfin is motivated purely by his inner feelings, while Morgoth only meets him from outer motivation: he's ashamed in front of his subordinates to refuse the challenge.
There are certain details that stand out in my memory, and one that I love is that the Elves don't sing of this battle, but Orcs don't brag about it either. The Orcs have to feel a certain terror about how much damage that crazy Elf King achieved, and how much more he was capable of. If you think of the Orcs at Cirith Ungol speculating with dread that a mighty Elvish warrior is on the loose (Sam) after besting Shelob, imagine what they have to say about Fingolfin.
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elaen32
Gondor
Jun 16 2013, 8:45pm
Post #18 of 97
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and the line "And Morgoth came" is so short and simple, yet so chilling and powerful! I've always noted the use of "And" to start a sentence in Tolkien and I think it does fit more with the idea of a spoken text. It is like oratory or like preaching. Certainly there are Biblical overtones here. I notice the same in LOTR in the later passages of ROTK, where And is used a lot, as are other Biblical phrases like "Verily..." and "Lo!"
I guess the Sil is supposed to be an historical account written down by the Elves of the First Age. One can imagine these texts being read out loud in the Hall of Fire in Imladris in later ages and this way of writing would sound very impressive. Perhaps in this way a young Estel learnt of his illustrious antecedents!
"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 16 2013, 8:51pm
Post #19 of 97
(1947 views)
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I find wars intellectually fascinating at the strategic level and morally repugnant at the individual level. The chess match of moving those blocks around on the map and getting to turn bits of the map to your color ("winning") seems quite the accomplishment. Ordering other people to go kill each other so you can have your little colored bits on a map is despicable.
Wars are different when they're about self-defense, and when the enemy is not human, so this war is conveniently different from real world ones. Regarding Red Badge of Courage, what I remember most about that book is that men in battle didn't know what was going on and rarely had a sense if they were "winning" or not. Your unit could be decimated but maybe your army won, or maybe your unit chased the enemy unit off the field, but your army lost otherwise. Only the commanders know, and that's only from reconnaissance.
In a sense, Fingolfin acts like the individual soldier on the front lines that doesn't know the big picture, so he acts rashly, which he wouldn't have done with better recon. That's something Old World about him. Generals like Alexander the Great would fight in their own battles, but modern ones never do now. The last Roman Emperor of Constantinople, seeing that the city was lost to the Turks, stripped off his armor and plunged into the last fight with no hope of winning, just to do what damage he could (and so his body couldn't be identified).
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 16 2013, 9:00pm
Post #20 of 97
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Do you suppose one reason the Sons of Feanor settled as far east in Beleriand as they could was because they were the most alienated from Valinor? They certainly never seem to think of calling home for help.
Why do you suppose Turgon is the only one to send repeated calls to Valinor for help? After all, he's in the most hidden of the Hidden Kingdoms. Shouldn't he be least concerned about divine intervention? And why is it confined to him: why doesn't Melian tell Thingol to ask Cirdan to send ships West, or why doesn't Fingon as High King of the Doomed Noldor send for help? Do they reason no help will come, so why bother? I can understand the Noldor thinking before this war that they could contend with Morgoth, but after it, they should realize that they're not going to win it on their own.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 16 2013, 9:10pm
Post #21 of 97
(1936 views)
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Do you suppose one reason the Sons of Feanor settled as far east in Beleriand as they could was because they were the most alienated from Valinor? They certainly never seem to think of calling home for help.
Why do you suppose Turgon is the only one to send repeated calls to Valinor for help?
Point about F-troop right on I think CG. After what happened I don't think they either wanted to ask for any help, or possibly like when Fongolfin first arrives there is some shame there.
Hmmm, I wonder if having that relationship with Ulmo makes Turgon think more about interacting with the Valar?
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 16 2013, 10:06pm
Post #22 of 97
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I guess when Ulmo shows up at your house and tells you to move (and helps), you feel like you can call on his kin. Though I wonder why Melian didn't prompt Thingol or Cirdan. Or maybe like any Ainu-Anthropologist, she just doesn't interfere.
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elaen32
Gondor
Jun 16 2013, 10:08pm
Post #23 of 97
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why doesn't Melian appeal for help directly herself?- she is a Maia after all! It seems strange that she does nothing- I would have thought that she was the most likely to be able to get a hearing by the Valar. She seems to be able to move freely enough back to Valinor when Thingol is killed
"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 17 2013, 12:25am
Post #24 of 97
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Exceptionally well put here Telpemairo!
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i think fingolfin was running on almost pure emotion, wanting to lash out -- finally -- at the real enemy, the one behind it all, the +murderer of his father+. when you see with crystal clarity that there is no hope of victory, sometimes issues mutate. the desire to survive (which for an elda is different anyway) might give way for a desire to control one's destiny, and own one's actions. better to go out fighting on one's own terms than to wait upon wait upon wait upon strategies and tactics that will ultimately fail, and better to choose one's own time to die than let the enemy choose it.
fingolfin had no chance of winning. and he knew it. i think if it served a practical purpose, it pricked the valar, reminding them that beings who cannot hope to withstand the enemy in any way fight on regardless, and fight valiantly. a fight that the valar long and repeatedly deferred themselves. i'll +bet+ that when tulkas finds out about fingolfin's battle, his fists clench. perhaps manwe even needs to restrain him from darting over to the mainland.
The classic theme of avenging the father too. Very nicely put here, and an insight into Fingolfin. 
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 17 2013, 2:29am
Post #25 of 97
(1908 views)
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thanks for putting spoilers in your thread titles, nowime!
cheers : )
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aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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