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Jay236
Lindon
Jun 4 2013, 8:00pm
Post #1 of 63
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Who is Tom Bombadil?
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Who exactly is Tom Bombadil, I mean I know he's a wizard but how is he relevant to the rest of LoTR, considering he is only in one chapter.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jun 4 2013, 8:06pm
Post #2 of 63
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He's Tolkien.
"Eldest, that's what I am."
And the eldest in any story is the storyteller.
******************************************
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
Brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
Hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
An age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
An age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
No man will spare another.
-From the Völuspá, 13th Century
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 4 2013, 8:32pm
Post #3 of 63
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There were only five wizards: Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, and the two Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando). Tom was in Middle-earth before the wizards came over Sea from the Undying Lands. And nobody knows for sure what Tom is, though there are lots of theories, everything from a nature spirit to a Maia or Vala, as well as Darkstone's theory of Tom as Tolkien. Even Tolkien didn't define Tom, seeming content to leave him an enigma. The most descriptive Tolkien ever got about him was in a letter to his publisher in which he called Tom "the spirit of the vanishing Oxford and Berkshire countryside". In another letter, he said that Tom was "just an invention...and he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyze the feeling precisely."
Do a search in the Reading Room forum and you'll find a lot of discussion about him.
And welcome to TORN, Jay! 
Silverlode
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
Jun 4 2013, 10:52pm
Post #4 of 63
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The fandom has been arguing who or what he exactly is for decades, and we still don't know. Even the best guesses are just that, guesses. Tolkien never told us.
His relevance is what he represents; both the unselfish love for countryside (and by extension the whole natural world) as opposed to the enemy's selfish wish to control, and the pacifistic mindset that can only survive if those willing to take up arms protect him.
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
Jun 5 2013, 12:16am
Post #5 of 63
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They meet him in chapter 6, they chill with him in chapter 7, and he saves them in chapter 8.
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Barrow-Wight
Nargothrond
Jun 5 2013, 1:52am
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"Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?"
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Tom Bombadil is Master
Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the Little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless—before the Dark Lord came from Outside
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Jun 5 2013, 2:07pm
Post #7 of 63
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?...Bomby Agrees with Darkstone!
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Seems the Only Happy Couple
he wrote about?...was
Bomby & Goldie
sooo.. meThinks he is refer-RING to
Himself & Edith.
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wildespace
Lindon
Jun 6 2013, 8:46pm
Post #8 of 63
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He was the spirit of English countryside in Tolkien's earlier creations, and Tolkien simply gave him a role in LoTR, keeping him an enigma. Some people decided that Tom is a Maia (like Gandalf or Sauron), but there's no reason to think its definite. He might be simply an aspect (or element) of Arda that gained a life of its own, like Ungoliant.
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dik-dik
Menegroth
Jun 10 2013, 8:36am
Post #9 of 63
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One thing I began wondering about when reading about Tom as a vague entity...
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(embodiment of nature and the like), was the significance of the unsettling image of Tom's eye seen through the Ring. I am not wholly opposed to this (non-Maiarin) origin for Tom, but Gandalf's words and now also the eye bit seems to me to point towards similarities between Gandalf, Sauron and Tom. I personally read those as hints at Maiarin-ness.
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
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JWPlatt
Hithlum
Jun 10 2013, 7:40pm
Post #10 of 63
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I personally read those as hints at Maiarin-ness. Not likely. The ring was inert to Tom Bombadil. Gandalf feared its effects on himself.
No one has yet suggested here that Bombadil is the embodiment of Eru, but that idea is also on the table. Eru, beyond even the Valar, is the most egregious example of a deity ignoring the pain and suffering of its creations, preferring to watch them dispassionately like one watches ants under a magnifying glass in the Sun. Through Bombadil, he was content to play his in own special area while watching the rest of the world burn.
(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Jun 10 2013, 7:41pm)
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dik-dik
Menegroth
Jun 10 2013, 8:39pm
Post #11 of 63
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I personally read those as hints at Maiarin-ness. Not likely. The ring was inert to Tom Bombadil. Gandalf feared its effects on himself.
I am not convinced this is a decisive factor. We don't know if the Ring tried to affect Tom or not, we just see that Tom didn't listen to or care for its lure. Tom seems above actively caring (speaking of travelling somewhere to lend aid) for the vast expanse of Middle-earth, content in his little nook. Gandalf travelled far and wide, and it was his task to see to the destruction of Sauron. It seems only logical to me that Gandalf would be much more tempted by the Ring than Tom.
No one has yet suggested here that Bombadil is the embodiment of Eru, but that idea is also on the table. Eru, beyond even the Valar, is the most egregious example of a deity ignoring the pain and suffering of its creations, preferring to watch them dispassionately like one watches ants under a magnifying glass in the Sun. Through Bombadil, he was content to play his in own special area while watching the rest of the world burn.
My turn to say 'not likely'.  If Tom was indeed Eru embodied, I cannot imagine the participants of the council speaking of him the way they did: stating with conviction that he'd fall to Sauron in the end, and that he's forgetful enough to cast the Ring away. I cannot imagine Gandalf talking about himself and Tom as 'stones', either; that would just sound too impious to me. And I cannot see the embodiment of Eru having a female partner, either. He's just One, and I imagine him ever solitary. ;)
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
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JWPlatt
Hithlum
Jun 10 2013, 8:56pm
Post #12 of 63
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...If Tom was indeed Eru embodied, I cannot imagine the participants of the council speaking of him the way they did: stating with conviction that he'd fall to Sauron in the end, and that he's forgetful enough to cast the Ring away. I cannot imagine Gandalf talking about himself and Tom as 'stones', either; that would just sound too impious to me. And I cannot see the embodiment of Eru having a female partner, either. He's just One, and I imagine him ever solitary. ;) That requires knowledge by the "impious" of who Bombadil actually is. I would claim that they don't necessarily know.
I thought about Eru's "female partner," as you also question. I don't have a good answer except that she is a natural, intrinsic part of the unique environment that he cares for so much. And if he left, she would not be able to follow.
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rangerfromthenorth
Ossiriand
Jun 11 2013, 3:57pm
Post #13 of 63
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Tolkien Said in one of his letters that Tom is not Eru and....
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that there is no embodiment of Eru in Middle Earth so that theory can be placed aside. Tolkien states this in letter 181.
Not all who wander are lost
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JWPlatt
Hithlum
Jun 11 2013, 4:22pm
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That's very interesting. Could you quote the relevant passage inside more context? It's okay under Fair Use to quote relevant excepts of copyrighted materials.
I still don't believe Tom is Maiar, owing to the severe inequality between his and Gandalf's response to the One Ring.
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rangerfromthenorth
Ossiriand
Jun 11 2013, 4:26pm
Post #18 of 63
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Tolkien was asked specifically by someone if Tom was Eru/Illuvatar. Tolkien's response is as follows, "There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers.”- The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 181, dated 1956.
I too share your reservations about Tom being a Maia. Indeed, I do not believe he is either a Maia, nor a Vala, nor a traditional Nature Spirit. All of these explanations fall short in my opinion. That is why I recommend you read my work 
Not all who wander are lost
(This post was edited by rangerfromthenorth on Jun 11 2013, 4:29pm)
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JWPlatt
Hithlum
Jun 11 2013, 4:28pm
Post #19 of 63
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That looks great. I'll give it a read.
There is another online study of Tom Bombadil that I read some years ago. I forget where it was, but was quite exhaustive and was outlined similarly to yours. A search doesn't immediately bring it up for me. Maybe someone else remembers where it was. It would be interesting to see the authors have a comparative discussion about their respective studies to understand where they agree and where they don't.
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dik-dik
Menegroth
Jun 11 2013, 10:30pm
Post #20 of 63
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I still don't believe Tom is Maiar, owing to the severe inequality between his and Gandalf's response to the One Ring.
Okay, it seems the two of us are at a moot point regarding Tom's Maiarinness, as your arguments don't convince me, and mine don't convince you - so based on your quote above, I only have one final question to ask, because I'm genuinely curious. If you at least allow the possibility for the Ents to be Ainur -as suggested in 'Of Aule and Yavanna'- do you believe that let's say Treebeard would have been just as tempted by the Ring as Gandalf was, if he was exposed to it? Because I'd imagine him reacting not unlike Bombadil, because of their similar attitudes and motivations. If you disagree with the Ainurinness of Ents, just ignore my question. :)
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
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rangerfromthenorth
Ossiriand
Jun 12 2013, 1:18am
Post #21 of 63
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I have always thought of Ents as some sort of nature spirit being that Tolkien makes mention of fayes and pixies I figured that Ents, stone giants, the Two Watchers, Huorns, were some flavor of nature spirit. I do not believe them to be Maiar, yet what references are you mentioning? I have read that chapter yet I don't remember any allusions to them being Maiarlike. I guess if you apply a broad definition to Ainur to include to any and all spirits even those created after the Valar and Maiar you could call them Ainur yet it seems that Tolkien in the opening chapters of the Silmarillion defines Ainur as just the Maiar and the Valar.
Not all who wander are lost
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rangerfromthenorth
Ossiriand
Jun 12 2013, 1:34am
Post #22 of 63
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Gandalf offers a great explanation of why the Ring does not affect Tom
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You wroteWe don't know if the Ring tried to affect Tom or not, we just see that Tom didn't listen to or care for its lure.
Gandalf says of Tom, "Say rather that the Ring has no power over him." So clearly, according to Gandalf, the Ring has no power and thus no affect on Tom.
Not all who wander are lost
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JWPlatt
Hithlum
Jun 12 2013, 3:17am
Post #23 of 63
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That's a great question. I've never heard the supposition of what would happen if Treebeard bore the One Ring.
The wiki says, " It was [Yavanna] who requested the creation of the Ents [by Eru], as she feared for the safety of the trees once her husband had created the Dwarves." This certainly says that the Ents were no more Ainur than Dwarves.
What I understand is that the Valar were Ainur on Middle-earth. The Maiar were lesser Valar. Ents were a race like any other race populated onto Middle-earth by Eru (e.g. Elves, Men) or the Valar.
I have seen debate over who is longer in Middle-earth, or who is older. I believe it is Bombadil. I remember finding good reasoning from Tolkien himself about that, but I don't remember now what that was, so I can't defend the position at the moment. It was probably something either Bombadil or Treebeard said of the other.
I believe in the fact that Tolkien Letter 181 says that Bombadil is not the embodiment of Eru on Middle-earth. Now we just have to eliminate the rest of the Ainur and Maiar. If Gandalf is affected, that leaves the Valar or a race of a single being unlike any other on Middle-earth. Or maybe one of the common beasts that sprung from the Creation.
But what would happen with Treebeard and the One Ring? The logic of the lore suggests that Treebeard should fear it even more than Gandalf. However, Gandalf trusted a Hobbit with the One Ring more than himself. So my gut feeling about Treebeard is that it would have little to no effect upon him even though, like Hobbits, that is contrary to the lineage.
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dik-dik
Menegroth
Jun 12 2013, 7:34am
Post #24 of 63
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Perhaps I used wrong phrasing...
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I meant that it is not the same thing when the Ring actively tries to affect a person and call to them (which is unknown if it did or not in Tom's case), and when the Ring has power over a person.
So for me, I imagine the Ring tried to affect Tom like it did with anyone else, and Tom either ignored its call or didn't hear it.
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
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dik-dik
Menegroth
Jun 12 2013, 8:10am
Post #25 of 63
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The wiki says, " It was [Yavanna] who requested the creation of the Ents [by Eru], as she feared for the safety of the trees once her husband had created the Dwarves." This certainly says that the Ents were no more Ainur than Dwarves.
Not necessarily. I go by both the account of 'spirits summoned from afar to live among the animals and plants' (or 'dwell therein') from the Silm., and by JRRT's 1963 passage on Ents in The War of the Jewels, stating the High Elves believed that "the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees."
Neither of those quotes states in black and white that the Ents were Ainur/Maiar, but they were apparently 'souls', and given what we know about them -longevity, doing the bidding of the Valar (in this case, of Yavanna), having a 'field of expertise', ability to assume a likeness- I interpret these as signs of Maiarinness. That's what I believe. If anyone is wholly opposed to that interpretation, fine with me, let's each believe in our own theory. No harm done. :)
If Gandalf is affected, that leaves the Valar or a race of a single being unlike any other on Middle-earth.
I still don't believe it is fair to consider the temptation of two known Maiar (Gandalf and Saruman) to be a decisive evidence that anyone who either doesn't refuse to help out with the Ring (those beyond the Sea), or isn't tempted, is automatically not an Ainu / Maia.
However, Gandalf trusted a Hobbit with the One Ring more than himself. So my gut feeling about Treebeard is that it would have little to no effect upon him even though, like Hobbits, that is contrary to the lineage.
I have the same feeling about what Treebeard would do, except I feel that the unaffectedness by the Ring has everything to do with one's natural disposition and need of the aid it (falsely) promises to give, rather than with being of a certain race.
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
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