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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
May 22 2013, 8:35pm
Post #76 of 102
(2237 views)
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I had no problem with his CGI, and EVERY problem with the entire history of The Dwarves,
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the war, and Moria at that point in time, being turned upside down and backwards just to accomodate forcing him into a timeline where he did not belong. To me, he's such a badass and is my favorite Middle-earth baddie. I love his how intimidating his voice sounds, how he looks (after seeing it on Blu-ray in my own home I don't understand the hate of his CGI, it looks amazing and very detailed), and he just seems like a good villain to put up against Thorin. Lurtz was totally created for the film, yet no one (as far as I know) had a problem with him. I guess some fans just didn't like Azog because of his CGI, which is the number one reason I see for people hating him. All his scenes are great, especially Weathertop. I get chills when Yazneg starts explaining how they were ambushed by elves and then Azog cuts in in his booming voice. Goosebumps. He may have been added in, but it's an addition in which I love. Come to think of it, no scene in The Hobbit bothered me. Maybe I'm more accepting of the adaption process? 
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Roheryn
Dor-Lomin
May 22 2013, 10:42pm
Post #77 of 102
(2181 views)
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As Kili would say, "He's fine!"
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I have no problems either with his inclusion in the storyline, or with how he is presented (I really don't find his animation underwhelming at all, unlike many here). I understand PJ sees a need to have a primary antagonist for the heroes, not just across the entire trilogy (where Smaug might fit the bill) but within each movie. Azog does a fine job of being the primary antagonist. I'm not fussed that he's Not Dead Yet. He will be at some point, and it could still be Dain who slays him. This is PJ's adaptation, and I'm perfectly happy to let PJ show us his vision. We knew from the beginning that PJ wouldn't follow the book exactly, and I'm ok with that. Besides, we've still got two movies to go. I think it's worth waiting to see how Azog's arc unfolds, and reserving judgment til the end.
One idle point of speculation I haven't seen considered: maybe there's really TWO Azogs. Why couldn't Azog I have already been slain by Dain, and the Azog of AUJ is actually Azog II? No proof that this *isn't* the case. So for those who are really bothered by the fact that Azog is supposed to be dead already, maybe just pretend that this Azog is Azog the Second. 
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
May 23 2013, 3:21am
Post #79 of 102
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Thank you. My dedication is largely because, I think it altogether is a very important piece of
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history if you are going to understand who the Dwarves are and where they come from. AND, even more importantly to the series as a whole, viewing this as the six part compilation it will become the instant film 3 is complete, it provides almost vital perspective on The Balrog. Because Moria has been mentioned and showcased in The Hobbit films, and the very gate the Fellowship flees from after Gandalf saves them from The Balrog shown with Azog being dragged off to a rather demonic glow, only two options remain: either 1) give some brief backstory, either related to the fate of Durin, (his heirs, and his Ring and the Malice of Sauron and ill fortune tied to it, which actually is hugely relevant to the larger Necromancer tale) OR as something of a fireside horror story relating the long suffering history of The Dwarves and how they lost what Thorin rightly called in film 1, their "sacred halls" in Moria.
OR ELSE option 2) they let the matter drop entirely, despite the fact that they already KNOW we are going to visit Moria again, and that when we get there we are going to encounter an ancient Demon who supposedly drove the Dwarves out and has dwelt there since a forgotten age, but who for some reason was never mentioned in connection to the place in all the times it was brought up and even shown in the "earlier" movies. In which case, from a film only standpoint, it looks like the Balrog is entirely pulled out of the ass of the story as a spur of the moment, "we need to get the powerful wise group leader out of the picture for a bit so the rest have to fend for themselves" ploy complete with a Boss battle for Gandalf. Tolkien avoids this gimmick. The only time he mentions Moria in The Hobbit is to say Thror was killed there, with no detail of the circumstances. We later learn that Balin went there, that lots (including Gandalf) thought the decision unwise and likely to be ill fated, that the motivation was the Hope of finding a Great Ring, and finally of Durin's Bane, though not as a Balrog, when Gandalf relays the general history of Moria and its fall to the Fellowship. The movies, however, have introduced alot about Moria in The Hobbit, AND plenty more in Fellowship, but not in a remotely cohesive way that ties the two together. I also think it is worth noting what a threat The Balrog could be to Lothlorien once Sauron is ready to unleash his great war, making all the more probable the notion of Galadriel that, "Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf. . ." remains a decision of the director and sciptors. He is only an ignorant savage if they make him seem so. They chose not to show Lurtz saying much of value. They chose, a more bothersome decision from my perspective, not to show how great a mastery of dark sorcery the Balrog wielded (though I suppose pulling flaming blades and whips out of the ether counts to an extent), but all those choices remain entirely at their feet. We would only get a "worse" Bolg, if they chose to give us one. Your gunna get some passionate responses on this topic.  First of all, what assumptions are being made when we say that things should have been much different? I think we are assuming the type of character Bolg is. Perhaps he is not a talker and more of just a brute. How much worse then would it be to have another lurtz that can hardly dialogue? We aren't in a position to say any characters we know nothing about should be doing this or that. Another assumption, that Dain was not in the battle and that his involvement will not be expanded upon in the next films. Maybe he is in the battle and they will just do another flashback when he is introduced? Or perhaps the reason he is not in AUJ is because they have big plans for his scene when he is finally introduced. One that would be less special if he was already revealed to us. I think they have big big plans for the dwarves of the Iron Hills and to be honest I would prefer he has a very impressive introduction. Now about Azog. First we have no idea how this will play out in the next films. I for one want him DEAD in DOS! I like his character because Manu Bennet is a great actor and all of us already know what Weta can do with CGI when they have time to perfect it so his look in AUJ is irrelevant to me. I expect a very intimidating Gollum-esqe Azog in DOS and not a "CGI abomination" (which I think is not even the case in AUJ). Maybe the extended editions will have an improved Azog who knows? Deleting all of Azog's scenes until the last scene just opens too many questions for me and I have no problem with them. Remember that the Great Goblin mentions him so the audience in no way would be surprised to see him at the end. What a way to find out he's alive still huh? I'd rather have the Weathertop scene. Azog may have been non canon but he pushes the company forward and only adds more excitement in my opinion. Too early to make large sweeping conclusions about him.  You are highly committed to your Balrog/Moria/Durin/Ring stuff! For that I commend you. I have faith that Bolg will give us something fresh and interesting. My biggest hope is that we will be able to enjoy him AND Azog being in the story when all is said in done. I'm sure they have a reason for not using Bolg.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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DwellerInDale
Nargothrond
May 23 2013, 4:18am
Post #80 of 102
(2141 views)
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You! Your second cousin on your father's side killed my father!
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Besides the reasons discussed above for the inclusion of Azog as the primary villain of AUJ, there's another simple reason, one that Philippa Boyens has already mentioned in interviews: the need to keep the story comprehensible for the average moviegoer, someone who has never read the appendices to LOTR-- which, of course, means about 99% of the audience. The "Mirror Image Moby Dick" revenge subplot of Thorin + Azog provides a villain with a real reason to hate our heroes personally. One of the best moments in AUJ, judging from the feedback on this forum and other places, was the scene where Thorin runs out of the burning tree; just before that there are about 5-10 seconds where Azog and Thorin just stare at each other, eyes full of hate, no dialog needed at all. If the film followed the book backstory, and it was Bolg who accosted the party at that point, he would have had to shout something at Thorin such as the title of this post:
"You! Your second cousin on your father's side killed my father! Now you gonna die!".
Don't mess with my favorite female elf.
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
May 23 2013, 5:42am
Post #81 of 102
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It still doesn't hold up. THey had Thorin fight Azog anyway. They needed only to have him Kill him.
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Really want to up the ante to make it super personal. Show Bolg seizing Thrain and dragging him into Moria. Thorin gives chase. . . enters Moria. No trace of Thrain at the entrance, ventures to the stairs, sees Balrog. Chase ends in terror.
Or, have Bolg hunting all over for Thorin, and let him give the same line about Thrain that Azog does. Suddenly Thorin has quite the reason for hatred, a hatred to match Bolg's own.
They didn't need Azog to keep things from becoming a convoluted web of cousins. Not at all. Besides the reasons discussed above for the inclusion of Azog as the primary villain of AUJ, there's another simple reason, one that Philippa Boyens has already mentioned in interviews: the need to keep the story comprehensible for the average moviegoer, someone who has never read the appendices to LOTR-- which, of course, means about 99% of the audience. The "Mirror Image Moby Dick" revenge subplot of Thorin + Azog provides a villain with a real reason to hate our heroes personally. One of the best moments in AUJ, judging from the feedback on this forum and other places, was the scene where Thorin runs out of the burning tree; just before that there are about 5-10 seconds where Azog and Thorin just stare at each other, eyes full of hate, no dialog needed at all. If the film followed the book backstory, and it was Bolg who accosted the party at that point, he would have had to shout something at Thorin such as the title of this post:
"You! Your second cousin on your father's side killed my father! Now you gonna die!".
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Yngwulff
Mithlond
May 23 2013, 5:58am
Post #82 of 102
(2167 views)
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I think it would be more plot worthy and truer to canon if Azog were killed at Annanzibular, Bolg flees, and the dwarves don't get him because of the Balrog.
Then, years later Bolg comes back looking for revenge and comes after Thorin, culminating in BO5A.
Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!
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Arannir
Doriath
May 23 2013, 12:06pm
Post #83 of 102
(2113 views)
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That is actually why I am so excited...
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... to see what they came up for the Azog/Bolg storyline.
Because this solution is so obvious that there must be a reason why they felt they needed both orcs alive at the time of the Hobbit.
I am strongely agreeing with @The Mitch King here.
“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien
Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.
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The Mitch King
Nargothrond
May 23 2013, 5:03pm
Post #84 of 102
(2096 views)
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Really want to up the ante to make it super personal. Show Bolg seizing Thrain and dragging him into Moria. Thorin gives chase. . . enters Moria. No trace of Thrain at the entrance, ventures to the stairs, sees Balrog. Chase ends in terror. Or, have Bolg hunting all over for Thorin, and let him give the same line about Thrain that Azog does. Suddenly Thorin has quite the reason for hatred, a hatred to match Bolg's own. They didn't need Azog to keep things from becoming a convoluted web of cousins. Not at all. Besides the reasons discussed above for the inclusion of Azog as the primary villain of AUJ, there's another simple reason, one that Philippa Boyens has already mentioned in interviews: the need to keep the story comprehensible for the average moviegoer, someone who has never read the appendices to LOTR-- which, of course, means about 99% of the audience. The "Mirror Image Moby Dick" revenge subplot of Thorin + Azog provides a villain with a real reason to hate our heroes personally. One of the best moments in AUJ, judging from the feedback on this forum and other places, was the scene where Thorin runs out of the burning tree; just before that there are about 5-10 seconds where Azog and Thorin just stare at each other, eyes full of hate, no dialog needed at all. If the film followed the book backstory, and it was Bolg who accosted the party at that point, he would have had to shout something at Thorin such as the title of this post:
"You! Your second cousin on your father's side killed my father! Now you gonna die!".
Will be SOOOO confused by (what appears to them to be) a random giant fire demon! haha It will open too many questions and a large unnecessary(but now necessary) background story added into the already filled movie. Which critics thought already had too much back story INCLUDING EREBOR'S SACKING! Which as you know is soooo important to the history! No I don't care about critics by the way
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bborchar
Nargothrond
May 23 2013, 7:17pm
Post #85 of 102
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...but then again, I am fine with the movie as it is.
"And after every single person aboard your ship suffocates, I will walk over your cold corpses to recover my people."~John Harrison
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
May 23 2013, 9:19pm
Post #86 of 102
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Exactly, flawless set up, great story telling, MUCH closer to the novel.
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I think it would be more plot worthy and truer to canon if Azog were killed at Annanzibular, Bolg flees, and the dwarves don't get him because of the Balrog.
Then, years later Bolg comes back looking for revenge and comes after Thorin, culminating in BO5A.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
May 23 2013, 9:44pm
Post #87 of 102
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He is going to seem a HECK of a lot more random popping up in Fellowship as though he
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has been there all along, which of course he has, if he was NEVER mentioned in the Hobbit movies. HOw the hell to explain that without COMPLETELY RUINING the history of Khazad-Dum/Moria/Durin's Folk/The Balrog, and I mean RUINING!!!! The Erebor business was great.
But the Balrog wouldn't be confusing at all, at least no more than "The Necromancer" is confusing to anyone who doesn't know its Sauron. stuff pops up all the time without much explanation (stone giants, folks). And the Balrog WOULD be explained very easily. Thorin and Dain see him, but never speak of what they saw because of the terror it filled them with (thus Balin not knowing. If Dain tells him years later, seemingly for the sole purpose of stopping him from going to Moria, there are plenty of reasons to dismiss it, and it is more easily dismissed),. Easy as anything for Bilbo to ask Gandalf at some point in Beorn's during the dwarves countless mentions of Durin's beard, bones and behind, "who is Durin,"
Gandalf: "The greatest and eldest of the ancestors and forefathers of The Dwarves. Long he reigned in Khazad-Dum, the most ancient and sacred of the Dwarf Kingdoms. But ill fortune became his lot, and his folk, delving too deeply for treasured Mithril, unleashed a terror, a demon of The Ancient World. The Demon slew Durin and drove the dwarves from Khazad-Dum. It became Moria, The Dark Pit, and has been abandoned by all decent folk for a thousand years."
Bilbo:"But, Balin said King Thror tried to reclaim Moria. . ."
Gandalf: "Thror had been driven half mad by the loss of Erebor, and by his. . . by other troubes as well. It was folly to make an attempt on Moria. . . but the rise of the demon and the fall of Durin were legendary matters from a thousand years before. Even had he been entirely of sound mind,Thror might well have assumed the evil in Moria long departed. . . Let us speak no more of the dark past for now. Rest Bilbo. . . "
Mitch-King, you seem to forget this is going to be a six episode event. The Balrog WILL be showing up, and he WILL (already is) have one of the most Iconic, most often replayed and quoted from "You shall not Pass!" scenes in the ENTIRE Sextet-Hexology. That is fixed fact. Moria has been prominently featured in The Hobbit. Also now a fixed fact. The film makers can either create continuity, USING THE INFORMATION ALREADY PROVIDED BY THE APPENDICES THEY CLAIM TO BE SO DEVOUTED TO, and give a brief explanation/bit of background, ( either related to Durin's/Thror's Ring, or to why Thorin and Dain didn't hunt down Azog's "corpse" in Moria, or to Gandalf's fears of Sauron/The Necromancer enlisting The Balrog in his war against the Elves of Lothlorien) or a glimplse of The Balrog as an already present terror and factor in Moria. . . . or they can let it go, make no allusions and no explanations, and have him Pop up OUT OF NOWHERE, with NO prior mention, full blown in Fellowship, and seem, specifically because he was NEVER before mentioned in the many comments and clips involving Moria in The Hobbit films, like a cheap, conrtived plot gimmick: a video game style boss fight dropped out of the clear blue for the sole purpose of getting Gandalf out of the scene for a long enough time for things to go to hell for the fellowship.
Audience: "Where the hell did he come from?" "Well, Sauruman says he drove the Dwarves out of Khazad-Dum. You remember hearing about/seeing that all those times we saw or heard about Moria in the Hobbit Movies?" "Ummmmmmmmmmm, no, pretty sure they never mentioned a 20 foot shadow and flame, fire sword and whip wielding demon at any point in those films. So again, where the HELL did he come from?"
Really want to up the ante to make it super personal. Show Bolg seizing Thrain and dragging him into Moria. Thorin gives chase. . . enters Moria. No trace of Thrain at the entrance, ventures to the stairs, sees Balrog. Chase ends in terror. Or, have Bolg hunting all over for Thorin, and let him give the same line about Thrain that Azog does. Suddenly Thorin has quite the reason for hatred, a hatred to match Bolg's own. They didn't need Azog to keep things from becoming a convoluted web of cousins. Not at all. Besides the reasons discussed above for the inclusion of Azog as the primary villain of AUJ, there's another simple reason, one that Philippa Boyens has already mentioned in interviews: the need to keep the story comprehensible for the average moviegoer, someone who has never read the appendices to LOTR-- which, of course, means about 99% of the audience. The "Mirror Image Moby Dick" revenge subplot of Thorin + Azog provides a villain with a real reason to hate our heroes personally. One of the best moments in AUJ, judging from the feedback on this forum and other places, was the scene where Thorin runs out of the burning tree; just before that there are about 5-10 seconds where Azog and Thorin just stare at each other, eyes full of hate, no dialog needed at all. If the film followed the book backstory, and it was Bolg who accosted the party at that point, he would have had to shout something at Thorin such as the title of this post:
"You! Your second cousin on your father's side killed my father! Now you gonna die!". Will be SOOOO confused by (what appears to them to be) a random giant fire demon! haha It will open too many questions and a large unnecessary(but now necessary) background story added into the already filled movie. Which critics thought already had too much back story INCLUDING EREBOR'S SACKING! Which as you know is soooo important to the history! No I don't care about critics by the way
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
(This post was edited by Altaira on Jun 7 2013, 4:01am)
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lurtz2010
Nargothrond
May 23 2013, 9:55pm
Post #88 of 102
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people would just assume they awoke the balrog during the 60 years
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Between TH and LOTR after Balin reclaims Moria. That would piss you off wouldn't it lol
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 23 2013, 10:47pm
Post #89 of 102
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Please keep it family-friendly!
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Arannir
Doriath
May 23 2013, 11:01pm
Post #90 of 102
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... why all the shouting, snarkyness and aggressiveness.
We are all fans after all and should not intimidate each other with such things ;)
“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien
Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
May 24 2013, 12:02am
Post #92 of 102
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It would certainly obviate him being Durin's Bane, which would ruin the Dwarf history, Moria's history,
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The Balrog's history. . . it would also contradict not only the actual novel and appendecies, but even the official Visual companion to the Hobbit movie, and several of the Lord of The Rings movie tie in novels.
It would even contradict the film. Gandalf, in the movie, doesn't KNOW Balin's venture to Moria failed and ended in his death. He strongly suspects it. He knows what the ancient dwarves unleashed in Moria, as Saruman says, and he clearly thinks it most likely that the Demon would not suffer any creature, save lesser, evil beings it could lord over like orcs and trolls, to live there for very long. He knows that a Balrog is in Moria, but he doesn't know whether or not Balin had the misfortune to stumble upon it or be stumbled upon by it. Therefor, EVEN if we allow that Peter, Phillipa and Fran decided to COMPLETELY throw the actual history of The Third Age out of the window (as we know they have sometimes been wont to do), it also wouldn't mesh with what is IN Fellowship.
I.E. even aside from how INSANELY WRONG it would be when compared against the books, Balin and his dwarves cannot be the dwarves who woke or unleashed The Balrog, because of the uncertainty Gandalf has regarding Balin's fate, and because while there IS a vague allusion to The Balrog in Ori's record tome "A Shadow moves in The Dark," there is certainly NOTHING about, "we started digging for Mithril and a unstoppable, magic using Shadow and Fire Demon with an immunity to our weapons popped out and started killing dwarves left, right and center." Gandalf does not KNOW Balin is dead. He fears it. If The Balrog had been unleashed by Balin and his colony, there would have been no doubt about the matter. He KNEW The Balrog had reigned in Moria, and thus didn't want to go there (in the Films). The same Wizard who was ready to race from Orthanc and back to protect Frodo when he learned The Nine were abroad, the same Wizard who goes into The High Fells where, according to film lies, they were buried, and who then will venture alone to Dol Guldur where Radagast encounted The Witch King, THAT Wizard, doesn't want to go through Moria, knowing what was disturbed there, and likely still lurks there. . . but, "He is dead then, it is as I feared,".
In The Fellowship movie, The Balrog was a long time terror of Moria, but Balin and company are definitely not the Dwarves who first disturbed it. For all the inappropriate alterations Peter has made, I don't think he would be so shameless as to make Durin's Bane NOT be Durin's Bane anymore by moving the timeline of the Balrog's release up by over a thousand years and putting it as an event which takes place after the timeline of The Hobbit.
But even if Peter were willing to disreagard all the Novel related reasons NOT to make such a change, his own film adds a lot of others. I.E. There IS a Balrog in Moria, The Wise already know this, and all indicators in the film (aside from explicit statements in related movie texts) are that Balin and his colony were NOT responsible for the initial release or disturbance of The Balrog, but that Gandalf fears if they went to Moria and were not heard from again, they probably were killed by it and whatever evil beings The Demon allowed to dwell there, as proved to be true. Between TH and LOTR after Balin reclaims Moria. That would piss you off wouldn't it lol
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
May 24 2013, 12:04am
Post #93 of 102
(2022 views)
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"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
May 24 2013, 12:06am
Post #94 of 102
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No enlarging for intimidation sake, merely to highlight that part of a rather lengthy post
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It is the key point. A major reason why leaving the matter of The Balrog of Moria entirely untouched in The Hobbit despite having brought Moria to the foreground in the first film, would be a massive mistake and pose continuity problems. ... why all the shouting, snarkyness and aggressiveness.
We are all fans after all and should not intimidate each other with such things ;)
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Arannir
Doriath
May 24 2013, 12:11am
Post #95 of 102
(2010 views)
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... and not just one side of the argumentators, btw.
:)
“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien
Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.
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Anubis
Ossiriand
May 24 2013, 9:22am
Post #96 of 102
(1978 views)
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The facial expressions were great, as well as his design. Very nice looking.
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Anubis
Ossiriand
May 24 2013, 9:25am
Post #97 of 102
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ltnjmy
Ossiriand
May 24 2013, 6:37pm
Post #98 of 102
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I think Azog is great. The actor voicing the character is fabulous - brings truly menacing tones to the voice. In fact, everytime I watch it I'm like - wow - he really sounds like "The Devil". A great Bad Guy !
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The Mitch King
Nargothrond
May 24 2013, 9:15pm
Post #99 of 102
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has been there all along, which of course he has, if he was NEVER mentioned in the Hobbit movies. HOw the hell to explain that without COMPLETELY RUINING the history of Khazad-Dum/Moria/Durin's Folk/The Balrog, and I mean RUINING!!!! The Erebor business was great. But the Balrog wouldn't be confusing at all, at least no more than "The Necromancer" is confusing to anyone who doesn't know its Sauron. Stuff pops up all the time without much explanation (stone giants, folks). And the Balrog WOULD be explained very easily. Thorin and Dain see him, but never speak of what they saw because of the terror it filled them with (thus Balin not knowing. If Dain tells him years later, seemingly for the sole purpose of stopping him from going to Moria, there are plenty of reasons to dismiss it, and it is more easily dismissed),. Easy as anything for Bilbo to ask Gandalf at some point in Beorn's during the dwarves countless mentions of Durin's beard, bones and behind, "who is Durin," Gandalf: "The greatest and eldest of the ancestors and forefathers of The Dwarves. Long he reigned in Khazad-Dum, the most ancient and sacred of the Dwarf Kingdoms. But ill fortune became his lot, and his folk, delving too deeply for treasured Mithril, unleashed a terror, a demon of The Ancient World. The Demon slew Durin and drove the dwarves from Khazad-Dum. It became Moria, The Dark Pit, and has been abandoned by all decent folk for a thousand years." Bilbo:"But, Balin said King Thror tried to reclaim Moria. . ." Gandalf: "Thror had been driven half mad by the loss of Erebor, and by his. . . by other troubes as well. It was folly to make an attempt on Moria. . . but the rise of the demon and the fall of Durin were legendary matters from a thousand years before. Even had he been entirely of sound mind,Thror might well have assumed the evil in Moria long departed. . . Let us speak no more of the dark past for now. Rest Bilbo. . . " Mitch-King, you seem to forget this is going to be a six episode event. The Balrog WILL be showing up, and he WILL (already is) have one of the most Iconic, most often replayed and quoted from "You shall not Pass!" scenes in the ENTIRE Sextet-Hexology. That is fixed fact. Moria has been prominently featured in The Hobbit. Also now a fixed fact. The film makers can either create continuity, USING THE INFORMATION ALREADY PROVIDED BY THE APPENDICES THEY CLAIM TO BE SO DEVOUTED TO, and give a brief explanation/bit of background, ( either related to Durin's/Thror's Ring, or to why Thorin and Dain didn't hunt down Azog's "corpse" in Moria, or to Gandalf's fears of Sauron/The Necromancer enlisting The Balrog in his war against the Elves of Lothlorien) or a glimplse of The Balrog as an already present terror and factor in Moria. . . . or they can let it go, make no allusions and no explanations, and have him Pop up OUT OF NOWHERE, with NO prior mention, full blown in Fellowship, and seem, specifically because he was NEVER before mentioned in the many comments and clips involving Moria in The Hobbit films, like a cheap, conrtived plot gimmick: a video game style boss fight dropped out of the clear blue for the sole purpose of getting Gandalf out of the scene for a long enough time for things to go to hell for the fellowship. Audience: "Where the hell did he come from?" "Well, Sauruman says he drove the Dwarves out of Khazad-Dum. You remember hearing about/seeing that all those times we saw or heard about Moria in the Hobbit Movies?" "Ummmmmmmmmmm, no, pretty sure they never mentioned a 20 foot shadow and flame, fire sword and whip wielding demon at any point in those films. So again, where the HELL did he come from?" Really want to up the ante to make it super personal. Show Bolg seizing Thrain and dragging him into Moria. Thorin gives chase. . . enters Moria. No trace of Thrain at the entrance, ventures to the stairs, sees Balrog. Chase ends in terror. Or, have Bolg hunting all over for Thorin, and let him give the same line about Thrain that Azog does. Suddenly Thorin has quite the reason for hatred, a hatred to match Bolg's own. They didn't need Azog to keep things from becoming a convoluted web of cousins. Not at all. Besides the reasons discussed above for the inclusion of Azog as the primary villain of AUJ, there's another simple reason, one that Philippa Boyens has already mentioned in interviews: the need to keep the story comprehensible for the average moviegoer, someone who has never read the appendices to LOTR-- which, of course, means about 99% of the audience. The "Mirror Image Moby Dick" revenge subplot of Thorin + Azog provides a villain with a real reason to hate our heroes personally. One of the best moments in AUJ, judging from the feedback on this forum and other places, was the scene where Thorin runs out of the burning tree; just before that there are about 5-10 seconds where Azog and Thorin just stare at each other, eyes full of hate, no dialog needed at all. If the film followed the book backstory, and it was Bolg who accosted the party at that point, he would have had to shout something at Thorin such as the title of this post:
"You! Your second cousin on your father's side killed my father! Now you gonna die!". Will be SOOOO confused by (what appears to them to be) a random giant fire demon! haha It will open too many questions and a large unnecessary(but now necessary) background story added into the already filled movie. Which critics thought already had too much back story INCLUDING EREBOR'S SACKING! Which as you know is soooo important to the history! No I don't care about critics by the way
Post a thread about whether or not the Balrog should be included. I would be interested to see the opinions. Just the Balrog, not all the Durin stuff 
(This post was edited by Altaira on Jun 7 2013, 3:58am)
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sauget.diblosio
Dor-Lomin
May 28 2013, 3:53am
Post #100 of 102
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Azog is by far the worst thing in all the Middle-earth films.
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Not only is he terribley designed, presented and portrayed, but the way he was included in AUJ was a slap in the face to Tolkien's already great history for the character. He should have been left in the past and in flashbacks, and deserved better than a cheap professional wrestler characterization. Definitely not a fan.
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