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Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 13 2013, 2:20pm
Post #1 of 10
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SCOD - The Hands of a Healer (but wash first).
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Original screencap here.
1. There is a contrast between grubby, stinky but surviving Edain, and clean, pretty but dying Eldar. Whatever does it mean?
2. The main hero death in FOTR was Boromir, in ROTK it was Theoden. How does Haldir’s death fit in with those two thematically? Or does it?
3. How does this Aragorn/Haldir death scene compare with the Aragorn/Frodo death scene in Moria?
4. Other thoughts?
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Brethil
Gondolin
May 13 2013, 8:54pm
Post #2 of 10
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Interesting questions Darkstone...
[In reply to]
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1. There is a contrast between grubby, stinky but surviving Edain, and clean, pretty but dying Eldar. Whatever does it mean? the world is changing...and as grubby as they may be it is Men's age to inherit the Earth.
2. The main hero death in FOTR was Boromir, in ROTK it was Theoden. How does Haldir’s death fit in with those two thematically? Or does it? A bit different, as Haldir does not need redemption in death. He also had another option - sailing away, that the Men did not. So being there it is more of a choice, and more of a gamble maybe, as death is not certain for Elves - the Men are destined to die somehow, but he could have simply gotten out of Dodge and left.
3. How does this Aragorn/Haldir death scene compare with the Aragorn/Frodo death scene in Moria? Aragorn is deeply touched in both - and rushes to both of their sides. Yet it seems easier for Aragorn to say goodbye to Haldir; not only because of the Quest being bound in Frodo, but because he perhaps feels more of a caretaker/shepherd to Frodo, unlike Haldir, to whom and he is more or less equal. He seems content to if sad to bless dying Haldir and move on. Thanks Darkstone!
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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Escapist
Mithlond
May 13 2013, 9:07pm
Post #3 of 10
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1. There is a contrast between grubby, stinky but surviving Edain, and clean, pretty but dying Eldar. Whatever does it mean?
It is interesting to note that in this version, the elves chose to stay and help. For some reason or other it mattered to them to see the world they loved inherited by men rather than orcs and to see an age of men come rather than an age of darkness. Elves really love the world in an amazing and profound way, it seems. I guess this is part of what makes them beautiful below the surface. It makes one wonder what the nature of the connection they feel to it is precisely ... although that information may be critically important it appears to be missing.
2. The main hero death in FOTR was Boromir, in ROTK it was Theoden. How does Haldir’s death fit in with those two thematically? Or does it?
I think that if Haldir had asked for a pardon for interfering in the lives of men or for some other realization of personal failure in some way, it would fit more - as it is I don't think it quite fits the same way.
3. How does this Aragorn/Haldir death scene compare with the Aragorn/Frodo death scene in Moria?
In Frodo's case there were secrets that became revealed while simultaneously saving them all.
4. Other thoughts?
Not at the moment, no.
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Loresilme
Doriath
May 14 2013, 4:19pm
Post #4 of 10
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1. Here is a contrast between grubby, stinky but surviving Edain, and clean, pretty but dying Eldar. Whatever does it mean?
Well, immediately prior to this scene, is the end of the conversation between Pippin and Merry:
Pippin: Maybe Treebeard’s right. We don’t belong here, Merry. It's too big for us. What can we do in the end? We've got the Shire. Maybe we should go home.
Merry: The fires of Isengard will spread. And the woods of Tuckborough and Buckland will burn. And ... And all that was once green and good in this world will be gone. There won't be a Shire, Pippin.
All of those words bolded for emphasis, could have been said by Haldir and his soldiers. They didn't really belong there, they could have just 'gone home' (gone West). But if they didn't try to help, all that was once green and good in the world they left behind, would be gone. I find that meaning here too, with Aragorn putting a hand covered with Orc blood, on Haldir's pristine garment. Maybe either way, some things that were once green and good in the world, were going to disappear anyway, to be replaced by the grime and grittiness of the new age.
2. The main hero death in FOTR was Boromir, in ROTK it was Theoden. How does Haldir’s death fit in with those two thematically? Or does it?
I think Haldir's death on the surface fulfills the dramatic need for a 'hero' or relatively main character to be lost in TTT. And it works on that level. But on a deeper level I think it has more symbolic meaning than did Boromir's or Theoden's, in that Haldir represents the Elves as a whole, he's the figure who personalizes all the nameless, unknown Elves that Elrond is referring to when he says 'my people are leaving these shores".
3. How does this Aragorn/Haldir death scene compare with the Aragorn/Frodo death scene in Moria?
It makes me wish Haldir had a mithril shirt too.
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Brethil
Gondolin
May 14 2013, 7:46pm
Post #5 of 10
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3. How does this Aragorn/Haldir death scene compare with the Aragorn/Frodo death scene in Moria?
It makes me wish Haldir had a mithril shirt too.
Oooh good point! I remember seeing TTT fir the first time in the theater, and sort of trying to swish the camera off of Haldir (because you know what that Pull-in shot means)!
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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Loresilme
Doriath
May 14 2013, 7:58pm
Post #6 of 10
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___________
...sort of trying to swish the camera off of Haldir (because you know what that Pull-in shot means)!
__________
you got that right   
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
May 16 2013, 3:18am
Post #7 of 10
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Great questions Darkstone....
1. There is a contrast between grubby, stinky but surviving Edain, and clean, pretty but dying Eldar. Whatever does it mean?
Your preamble covers it quite well.
2. The main hero death in FOTR was Boromir, in ROTK it was Theoden. How does Haldir’s death fit in with those two thematically? Or does it?
Hmmm, I'd never thought of Haldir as the hero death in TTT. It was a hard moment to be sure, and I suppose it fits the formula (assuming Haldir fits). But I rather thought Aragorn's death, a feint really, fit the bill -- with the added bonus that he returned, and all that that implies.
3. How does this Aragorn/Haldir death scene compare with the Aragorn/Frodo death scene in Moria?
Erm, has it really been so long since I've watched FOTR? I have no memory of an Aragorn/Frodo death scene. Unless you are referring to the "That spear would have skewered a wild boar" scene? I guess because we knew it was too early for Frodo to die, the impact was quite different.
Or are you speaking about their reaction to Gandalf's seeming death? In neither case was there time to mourn, not even for "pity's sake." Aragorn seemed less phased by Gandalf falling than he was at the passing of Haldir... perhaps because during the later, there was proof that death was present. But then he was a different sort of leader by the time of Haldir's death.
4. Other thoughts?
It's really nice to see you back my friend.
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on May 16 2013, 3:26am)
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Eruwestial37
Nargothrond
May 16 2013, 8:57pm
Post #8 of 10
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That the filmmakers brought Haldir to this point perhaps to show that Elves could, indeed, die. When I first saw the films, I hadn't read the books, so "immortal" to me, meant, literally "deathless". This scene gave those like me proof that Legolas was in the same peril as the rest of the Fellowship.
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
May 17 2013, 1:30am
Post #9 of 10
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for others of us who read the books before seeing the movies there was the added peril that a Legolas death scene could be scripted in.
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on May 17 2013, 1:31am)
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Yngwulff
Mithlond
May 17 2013, 7:50am
Post #10 of 10
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They never die they just smell that way ..
Oh NVM that's Dwarves!!!
Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!
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