it will be a chance for them to learn not to judge by appearances, won't it?

What I explained in my post was my reaction to the scene on first viewing, and it's only been strengthened by further watching. It's how I instinctively read the characters as acted out onscreen, not how I have envisioned them in my head from much reading (that's rather different, actually). The White Council meeting feels awkward (intentionally, I think) but it doesn't deter Gandalf from his plans or prevent the dwarves from carrying on with theirs, and it demonstrates that Galadriel has placed herself on Gandalf's team and that Saruman is going to be the roadblock to doing anything about the Necromancer. It's enough to be going on with, until we see how further evidence results in the attack on Dol Guldur in the next movie or perhaps two.

The next two movies will show Gandalf being proved right and his plans to take out the dragon and search out the truth of the Necromancer succeeding (even if the attack on Dol Guldur doesn't - and that fact sets up for the rise of Sauron). And then there's LOTR, where Gandalf fulfills his mission as the Enemy of Sauron and sails West in the company of Elrond and Galadriel, who show nothing but respect for him. If someone gets the wrong idea now, it will likely be corrected in the long run, and I'm content to let it play out because the overall outcome is assured. You see, I know how the story ends.

Besides, if there's one thing I've learned in over a decade of fandom, it's that people will have as many different reactions to and interpretations of the same thing as you could possibly think of, and even some you couldn't. One can't control others' perceptions, and I think it's futile to try, or to worry overmuch about it. Some people pick up on subtext, others don't. It doesn't mean everything has to be spelled out for everyone in words of one syllable. How exactly could you make sure that everyone who watches the movie understands everything without spelling it out too plainly? I prefer a little ambiguity - even a little misdirection and the occasional smokescreen - to that, even if it means someone somewhere doesn't "get" it.

AinurOlorin : I just imagined 40 something Tolkien geek at a highway, dressed in the manner of the druids or wizards, with a long, wooden staff, shouting to the said merchandise trucks : YOUUUU SHALL NOOOOOOT PAAAAAASSSS!!

The three Wizards who were part of the White Council are Maiar, basically gods to elves, men, dwarves, and hobbits. The spirits of Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, are older than Arda (the world) itself, and the three of them had a part in the music that created the world. So while the physical forms that these three cloaked themselves in could be slain by lesser beings, there is still NO elf that could, under any circumstance, be considered "more powerful" than any of the Wizards. By the very nature of the Wizards, they are superior to elves. And of those 3 wizards, Radagast is portrayed by Tolkien as the weakest. So Gandalf was at least the second-most powerful member of the Council, and some would say THE most powerful.

At the time of the Quest for Erebor, the most powerful beings in Middle-earth that we know of would have been, in no particular order, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Durin's Bane, and the two Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando). I didn't include Bombadil because no one is sure exactly what he is.

I'm quite surprised at how smoothly some of the fans here have taken it: at least I'm glad that you agree with me on the whole. Sadly if PJ does do what I'm dreading then it might take the full-on shake-up (i.e. the content of film two) to make people realize just how wrong all of this is.

Some people are saying that they would actually like to see the scenario I discussed? Oh dear me....

However, I have seen defenses of blatant, bold contradictions that were entirely unecessary. It is entirely possible to show Galadriel as great and powerful, and to have that feminine might on display, without diminishing The Ainur who have come to aid and guide all, including The Elves.

In the handling of Galadriel/Gandalf I have certainly not seen anything yet that would call for a plea to PJ, PB and FW. Because, even without any further knowledge, I simply did not see a superior and an inferior, but two being that do care deeply for another, one of them being the great guy who has sacrificed everything he has in all the movies we have met him so far, for the greater good. And that is what counts, also in Tolkien's spirit imho.


And yes, I call myself a massive Tolkien fan and lore freak ;)

A bit dramatic, isn't it But I guess one becomes like this after going through fire, water, death and the hands of the White Lady

I guess, those of us who disagree with you can ask you the same questions. How do you know that people will get the wrong picture when several people here seem to have interpreted the scene in a totally diferent way than what you fear? And have talked to people without deeper knowledge who also did not feel like you?

So we all know people who know people who thought whatever we thought. Noone is more right after that, I guess.

And although you will probably burn me on all the stakes of Middle-earth for this: If there should be some regular moviegoer out there who thinks exactly like you fear, believing that Galadriel is the lady superior to poor old Gandalf and is never proven otherwise because he does not care for the lore outside of the movies... then... and now comes what signs my death sentence... will this not dimish the lore, the books or the movies in any way to those who do care and know. Neither will it dimish it for the guy who just enjoyed (or hated) the movie but couldn't care less about the legendarium. For a regular non-Tolkien-fan moviegoer this is not a gamechanger, in whatever way they interpret the scene. For this, Gandalf's role simply is too large and highlighted compared to Galadriel.

In the handling of Galadriel/Gandalf I have certainly not seen anything yet that would call for a plea to PJ, PB and FW. Because, even without any further knowledge, I simply did not see a superior and an inferior, but two being that do care deeply for another, one of them being the great guy who has sacrificed everything he has in all the movies we have met him so far, for the greater good. And that is what counts, also in Tolkien's spirit imho.


And yes, I call myself a massive Tolkien fan and lore freak ;)

What I saw was affection and respect between them (and that they were on the same wavelength), but certainly no indication that Gandalf was in some way subordinate to Galadriel – and I've seen the film at least 20 times.

Not sure why these differences in perception arise.

In Reply To

I'm sorry to say that my reaction to some nameless person forever going through life misunderstanding the true relationships of the White Council is simply this: So what? If they never get around to reading the books, or (if reading is not their thing) joining a fan group where they might be corrected, then likely this story and all its multitudinous details simply don't mean enough to them to make a little misunderstanding a problem. Those who want to know will find out. Those who don't care, won't....and it won't matter at all, because it's not part of their life. The world will not end. Nothing will be damaged. Tolkien's reputation won't falter in the slightest, because these people will either have enjoyed the story enough to be a casual fan and therefore appreciative of him in spite of what they do not know, or they didn't really like the story in which case this particular misunderstanding will be absorbed in their general indifference. I don't believe for a second that anyone but a died-in-the-wool fan is going to dislike this story on account of the relational dynamics in one scene.

The only people this matters to are here, and in places like this. And anyone who comes here will find out, not only this, but all kinds of stuff they didn't know before. Call me NARF, but much as I truly love these stories and the world of Middle-earth (enough to be here daily for 13 years now!), I do not worship them or think it is healthy that anyone should, and the fact that not everyone shares my liking for them doesn't bother me at all.

of Elrond's subtext is optional, depending on the eye of the beholder. But it seems to me that the disapproval in his glance is a little too much for just the fact that Saruman is upset - something has happened to incur Elrond's disapproval too. Let's look at the progression of events:

Gandalf shows up with a bunch of dwarves, having led orcs/goblins right up to one of the entrances of Rivendell, and is greeted cheerfully and in a friendly manner by Elrond. Not too long after, Elrond finds out what the dwarves are up to. I don't get the sense in the map reading scene that Elrond is personally immediately opposed to the idea, he merely says that "Some would not deem it wise", not "I do not think it wise". Who, then, deems it not wise? When Galadriel hears about it, she doesn't seem horrified; she's much more worried about the Necromancer, and even seems amused at the dwarves' secret getaway. Must be Saruman. Somewhere between those two scenes with Elrond, an indignant Saruman has showed up, being angry enough to travel all the way from Isengard to chew Gandalf out about his machinations, and Elrond knows what he's steamed up about, which means he's already had an earful. That's how I see both Elrond's tone in the line about guardians, and also the touch of ironic amusement I fancy I see in his face when Gandalf is greeting Galadriel and gets blindsided by Saruman's presence. In fact, not telling Gandalf just whom to expect may be Elrond getting a little gentle revenge...and if that's not the act of a friend and equal, I don't know what is.

And of course, this brings up an interesting question. If neither Elrond nor Galadriel knew what Gandalf was planning, and Radagast has only talked to Gandalf, then just what did Saruman hear that sent him storming up to Rivendell for an impromptu meeting, and how did he hear it? And it has to be an unscheduled meeting, or Gandalf would have expected to see him there, as well as Galadriel. Azog's not the only one with surprisingly good intelligence on the location and aims of Thorin and company.

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