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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Hobbit: The Humiliation of Mithrandir
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Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 2 2013, 5:29pm

Post #1 of 86 (6541 views)
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The Hobbit: The Humiliation of Mithrandir Can't Post

Warning: No small amount of sarcasm and annoyance following, but *it is purposeful*-I am certainly not the only one who worries about this.

Perhaps the thread title would be a more fitting title for Peter Jackson's second Hobbit installment. I love the films but it's clear we are hitting on problems.

So, in An Unexpected Journey we've established the fact that Gandalf is answerable to the much more formidable Lady Galadriel, who is clearly far more powerful than even Saruman the White (or at least so the filmmakers seem to believe, though I hope our late professor would have a thing or two to say to them). Galadriel has commanded Gandalf to "show her" the Morgul blade and has been his listen lady when he needed to talk (Gandalf's line about "the small things" was great, but the tone of the scene was not). We have seen how Gandalf has been treated disrespectfully by each member of the council: Elrond questioning him and frowning at him, telling him that he is "not the only guardian to stand watch over Middle-earth". Saruman being Saruman has of course belittled all of Gandalf's efforts.

Therefore, by the stage of film two Gandalf has clearly been singled out as the inferior. Sir Ian McKellen (who, in all seriousness is the best thing about Gandalf's portrayal) has told us that at some point Gandalf will be rescued by his friend Radagast, though this is acceptable, since they are of the same order. The real problem arises now that we know about the whole "Gandalf doll" scenario. I presume therefore that the Wizard is knocked out of the battle of Dol Guldur, having been injured by (knowing PJ) a lowly Orc, or even worse by his nemesis the Witch-King (We book fans haven't forgotten the RotK EE). But fear not, for help is at hand and in one sweep The Great and Mighty Galadriel picks up Gandalf's unconscious form and bears him out of the fray, returning in wrath to single-handedly throw down the walls of Dol Guldur (this is PJ, remember, and don't forget that this exact thing happened many years later).

Because of this, Gandalf is probably late to the battle of the Five Armies and is therefore denied several of his finest moments: saving Bilbo from Thorin's wrath and his delivery of "Halt! Dread has come upon you all!" Doubtless he will end up with his arm in a sling, just to make sure that several more non-book readers can have permission to dub Gandalf as "the worst Wizard ever".

Well, that was a rant. I know a lot of this isn't set in stone but some of the words dropped by cast/crew members are very worrying indeed.

Fellow Gandalf fans, tell me: how did it come to this?

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 2 2013, 5:45pm

Post #2 of 86 (3030 views)
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Im just waiting [In reply to] Can't Post

for our greyish, pointy hat friend to deliver his EPIC monologue Angelic

Vous commencez ŕ m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


DanielLB
Immortal


May 2 2013, 5:48pm

Post #3 of 86 (3037 views)
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You lost me at this part... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So, in An Unexpected Journey we've established the fact that Gandalf is answerable to the much more formidable Lady Galadriel, who is clearly far more powerful than even Saruman the White (or at least so the filmmakers seem to believe, though I hope our late professor would have a thing or two to say to them).


Do we need to go round in circles?


imin
Valinor


May 2 2013, 5:53pm

Post #4 of 86 (2880 views)
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Lol, isn't that the plan until DOS is released? :P // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 6:05pm

Post #5 of 86 (2859 views)
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A Wizard is never Late. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Because of this, Gandalf is probably late to the battle of the Five Armies and is therefore denied several of his finest moments: saving Bilbo from Thorin's wrath and his delivery of "Halt! Dread has come upon you all!" Doubtless he will end up with his arm in a sling, just to make sure that several more non-book readers can have permission to dub Gandalf as "the worst Wizard ever".



This isn't necessarily the case at all. Tolkien, at least, has the Council's assault on Dol Guldur take place long before the Battle of Five Armies (Gandalf is finishing up his business there about the same time that Thorin and Company arrive at Lake-town). I don't know how Peter Jackson is going to reaarrange events, but hopefully he won't place the two battles too close together.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Hamfast of Gamwich
Rivendell


May 2 2013, 6:09pm

Post #6 of 86 (2877 views)
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I think you're jumping the gun somewhat [In reply to] Can't Post

Other people talking down to someone doesn't mean they are necessarily inferior. And anyway, it's not clear that either Garladriel or Elrond talk to Gandalf as an inferior at any point in the film. Galadriel told Gandalf to show her, but this wasn't an order. He'd taken it to the meeting and had it on his lap anyway, it' not like her wasn't going to bring it out. At worst Elrond spoke to him as an equal when he asked him some questions.

Also, don't forget the fact that Gandalf cons the rest of the White Council, he essentially keeps them talking as Thorin and co escape. Galadriel had no idea about this and sounded impressed when she said "you knew."

"Durin's Heir you may be, but even with one eye you should see clearer. If this is victory, then our hands are too small to hold it. We will not enter Khazad-dum. You will not enter Khazad-dum. Beyond the shadow of the gate it waits for you still: Durin’s Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin’s Folk walk again in Moria.”


Balderdash Baggins
The Shire

May 2 2013, 6:36pm

Post #7 of 86 (2857 views)
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Well, as a fellow Gandalf fan... [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to say that I'm not concerned. The "real" Gandalf is and always will be the one who was brought to life in the words of Professor Tolkien. All of the characters in Peter Jackson's movies have huge differences versus the characters in the books, and Gandalf is no exception.


MorgolKing
Rivendell

May 2 2013, 7:26pm

Post #8 of 86 (2777 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree the White Council scene was terrible. I was really looking forward to it but Boyens and Co. felt they had really push upon the audience that Galadriel was the most powerful being on Middle Earth.

Just do what I'm going to do and edit that scene or take it out entirely. I'm probably going to edit most of it out but keep some of it so I can still see Saruman in the movie.


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 2 2013, 7:30pm

Post #9 of 86 (2760 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I enjoyed the scene itself, it was just the whole Galadriel thing...I can let them off, I still enjoy the film very much and I do like that scene...just not nearly as much as I thought I would.

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."


Darkstone
Immortal


May 2 2013, 7:34pm

Post #10 of 86 (2828 views)
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Well, yeah.... [In reply to] Can't Post

"Who would go ? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.
-Unfinished Tales - The Istari

"For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of the earth, able to hunger and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errrors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek and rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to do good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt."
- ibid

"Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred... Saruman... grew to fear him, being ever uncertain how much Gandalf perceived of his inner mind.... So it was that openly he treated Gandalf with less respect than did others of the Wise... "
- Unfinished Tales, The Hunt for the Ring:

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 2 2013, 7:36pm)


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens


May 2 2013, 7:57pm

Post #11 of 86 (2791 views)
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What about Pippin saving Gandalf´s life at ROTK? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you can deal with it I´m sure that you will deal what is gonna come in hobbit filmsWink

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


Darkstone
Immortal


May 2 2013, 8:06pm

Post #12 of 86 (2719 views)
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Yep [In reply to] Can't Post

That incident did quite nicely exemplify Tolkien's theme of the exaltation of the humble. And we're talking about a hobbit saving the upgraded Gandalf the White, not the humble Gandalf the Grey.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens


May 2 2013, 8:18pm

Post #13 of 86 (2727 views)
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I think in a Middle Earth´s power scale its a pretty good deal [In reply to] Can't Post

And a good example, I have no matter with Galadriel saving Gandalf, in fact I like quiet the idea, I don´t see Gandalf like the person that doesnt want to be helped, thats for Saruman I think.

I would dare to say that is necessary to show that part of Tolkien´s spirit, and I want to see Galadriel entering into the dirty work

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 2 2013, 8:25pm

Post #14 of 86 (2732 views)
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I'm just thankful [In reply to] Can't Post

Jackson can NOT use things from UT or the Silmarillion or any of Tolkien's other writings. Esp since what they did take from the appendices doesn't even resemble anything in them, in fact quite the opposite. Unsure


Arannir
Valinor

May 2 2013, 8:49pm

Post #15 of 86 (2652 views)
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Thanks for those ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

The only thing not going in circles here ;-)


Darkstone
Immortal


May 2 2013, 8:50pm

Post #16 of 86 (2693 views)
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Considering that... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the same can be said of Jackson's FOTR I'm bemused that people still have the capacity to be surprised by each successive adaptation.

But if you watch each film carefully you'll find Jackson and Co. frequently filtched from Tolkien's other writings. I'm still at a loss as to why CT hasn't sued the pants off Jackson and had the films seized and burned.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



MatthewJer18
Rohan

May 2 2013, 9:33pm

Post #17 of 86 (2687 views)
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Yeah, this does seem like going in circles at this point... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think Gandalf was "humiliated" in the White Council scene in the slightest. He's naturally going to have to explain himself to the Council when he arrives at Rivendell under strange circumstances and presents some fairly extraordinary claims to its senior members. That's not making him always "answerable" to the Council, it's making him answerable within the context of the scene. It makes perfect sense. What I'm getting is that some people want a very simplistically-rendered Gandalf who is always absolutely superior at every moment in the story, even when it would simply not make much narrative sense.

Allow me to also differ on Gandalf's relationship with Galadriel. I think it's fascinating.


(This post was edited by MatthewJer18 on May 2 2013, 9:36pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


May 2 2013, 9:46pm

Post #18 of 86 (2687 views)
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Fascinating relationship indeed! [In reply to] Can't Post

"Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone. I was alone, forgotten, without escape upon the hard horn of the world. There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all lands: the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of overburdened stone. And so at the last Gwaihir the Windlord found me again, and he took me up and bore me away.
"Ever am I fated to be your burden, friend at need," I said.
"A burden you have been," he answered,"but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall you would float upon the wind."
"Do not let me fall!" I gasped, for I felt life in me again. "Bear me to Lothlórien!"
"That indeed is the command of the Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you," he answered.

-TTT

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 1:00am

Post #19 of 86 (2591 views)
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There are people who wish [In reply to] Can't Post

Jackson would get his kiwi pawns on TS and UT ShockedCrazy

Insert Darth Vader's NO scream.


Thankfully, we're safe.Wink

If in the future, they end up being adapted, it is only sensible to give them to someone else.

Tim Burton perhaps?Sly

Vous commencez ŕ m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 3 2013, 2:12am

Post #20 of 86 (2553 views)
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OP [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Gandalf's seeming inferiority has more to do with his own self-doubt than anything else. I don't see Lady Galadriel hammering him for what he does, AND she does side more with him and confide with him instead of Saruman. Who knows what she has seen in her mirror ...


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Elessar
Valinor


May 3 2013, 2:25am

Post #21 of 86 (2537 views)
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I would be one of those people [In reply to] Can't Post

And proud to be one. Cool



Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 2:33am

Post #22 of 86 (2538 views)
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Honestly I would LOVE to see... [In reply to] Can't Post

the Tolkien estate get the rights to ALL JRR Tolkien's works back and do what Marvel did. Produce and Make the films themselves with the best interest of the author and reverence to the source material in mind when making them. Jackson obviously does not have the source materials best interest in his heart. Hence all the needless and unnecessary changes to The Hobbit and LOTR. LOTR I was more willing to accept because they at least felt natural in most cases, plus they were done in a realistic style. But with the Hobbit the changes and embelishments just felt cartoonish and really felt like a disservice to the source material.


(This post was edited by sinister71 on May 3 2013, 2:34am)


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 3:39am

Post #23 of 86 (2543 views)
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haters gonna hate... [In reply to] Can't Post

 


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 3 2013, 6:23am

Post #24 of 86 (2572 views)
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One shouldn't confuse [In reply to] Can't Post

a humble demeanor - which is a choice made by Gandalf about how he will present himself - with inferiority or powerlessness. Besides, despite the little bait-and-switch they did with Galadriel's first appearance, I thought it was quite obvious that Saruman was the one in charge, as head of the Istari - and so did he. What I saw was Gandalf being diplomatic and saying as little as possible when faced with an awkward surprise Council meeting he hadn't planned on or prepared for, and Galadriel picking up on it and trying to figure out what he's up to. And once she does, she's on his side. Elrond seems like the reluctant host. I have a mental image of Saruman showing up without warning and announcing to Elrond that he's called a meeting for tomorrow if not sooner and demanding to know what Elrond thinks he's doing assisting Gandalf and his rabble of dwarves to upset the status quo of Middle-earth. During the Council meeting, Elrond seems to me to be watching the proceedings from a deliberately neutral stance, and with a certain amount of ironical amusement at the wizards' conflict.

Here's the subtext I see in this situation:

Elrond: "You are not the only guardian of Middle-earth"
Subtext: "Saruman's all upset. You're in hot water, my friend! And if you bring him unexpectedly down on my head like this again, we will have words."

Gandalf: "Galadriel! I didn't know you'd be here! SO NICE to see you!"
Subtext: 'What's up with Galadriel, to make Elrond give me the stink-eye like that? Something's not right here. Be extra friendly."

Saruman: "I called this meeting!"
Subtext: "You're meddling again, and I'm going to show you who's boss!"

Gandalf: "Saruman!"
Subtext: "@(&!*#^! That explains Elrond. Must tread carefully."


For the rest of the meeting, Gandalf is feeling his way and trying to say as little as possible, while Galadriel digs to find out the truth, Saruman gives Gandalf a lecture on not rocking the boat (Saruman's boat most of all), and Elrond is not going to commit himself in any direction until he has all the facts - and can preferably avoid another annoying lecture from Saruman.

In the end, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and Gandalf's plans turn out quite well. He doesn't have to act large and in charge in order to be effective or powerful. He's both, even while his wisdom and power are cloaked and disguised in gray humility.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 6:55am

Post #25 of 86 (2465 views)
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100% agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post

And very funny post, thanks for a good laugh ;)

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