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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 30 2013, 1:46am
Post #26 of 160
(1638 views)
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[batik] I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my" ...pants. (!!!)// [/batik]
hmmmm.... i cannot help but interpret this as an ardent request that i bore you.
i will consider your request.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Apr 30 2013, 2:11am
Post #27 of 160
(1674 views)
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"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 30 2013, 2:14am
Post #28 of 160
(1614 views)
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ardamire, that's the spirit!!! //
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aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Apr 30 2013, 2:23am
Post #29 of 160
(1622 views)
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I am wearing pants  but I've been moving between boards, and I wouldn't want to wander into Off-topic without pants! How embarrassing that would be! 
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 30 2013, 2:29am
Post #30 of 160
(1679 views)
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actually, i think it's far more embarrassing for you that you just admitted you're wearing pants in the reading room -- and you're from tol eressea, for ulmo's sake!
try to set a good example.
heads up: i think i hear manwe calling you to the mahanaxar.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 30 2013, 2:30am)
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Apr 30 2013, 2:40am
Post #31 of 160
(1623 views)
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Everyone should be happy that way! They're nice and breezy for the reading room, but formal enough for serious talk in the pollantir.
In all fairness, I have been singing tra-la-la-lally all day. That's got to count for something.
Oh, crud, I ain't got time for the Valar's shenanigans today....
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen
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erynion
Lorien
Apr 30 2013, 6:09am
Post #32 of 160
(1623 views)
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I was in fact not wearing pants when I made the OP. I had just come out of the bath. xP
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Apr 30 2013, 7:30am
Post #33 of 160
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Obviously you'll fit right in here. //
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elaen32
Gondor
Apr 30 2013, 8:13am
Post #34 of 160
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Here in England, pants mean underwear ie knickers, boxer shorts etc. In North America, I understand pants refers to trousers/ jeans etc. I do so hope that you guys are using the latter definition!!   
To get back on topic, I can't remember the details of this part, so had better get reading.
Welcome erynion by the way! See we are not that scary, are we?!
"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"
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erynion
Lorien
Apr 30 2013, 9:04am
Post #35 of 160
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I speak UK English, so... fear. XD
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Ahem. Anyway.
I guess I'm not scared now! xD I think I've learned a lot about Tolkien canon in my 10 years of being in the fandom, yet I still feel the insecurity of a "films first fan". But yeah, it's fine. ^^
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erynion
Lorien
Apr 30 2013, 9:09am
Post #36 of 160
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It also adds to the death of Gil-galad..
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Because if Cirdan basically fostered him in the same way Elrond did Aragorn then not only did he have to watch someone die who was a great king of Elves, but also like a son to Cirdan.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 30 2013, 9:23am
Post #37 of 160
(1621 views)
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Tying up the subthreads (except the sensible one).
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OHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Twas the spring of Twenty thirteen, and in the Reading Room
We were all debating the wearnin' of pants, and sometimes the Ring of Doom.
With a do-la-la-lally, the elves in their valley, and the dwarves in their Halls have no smalls
And the only way to stop this 'ere song is to kick me in the ____
OHHHHHHHHHHHH!
[etc.]
Performance notes:
- To be sung unaccompanied on Open Mic night by a group of folk singers attempting to sing in unison, each with a finger in their ear (putting your finger in another singer's ear is considered unconventional even in these days).
- An instrument may be used to give a starting note, but this will not have any apparent bearing on the tuning of the song thereafter, or even on which key it's in.
- It's traditional for least one singer, usually the most enthusiastic, to be horribly flat.
- Three drinks per person minimum before starting.
There are a further seventeen verses, you know (you can join in from verse 10 onwards).
If one can bear its rustic charm, the song does go on to shed light on some Tolkien mysteries that are otherwise only hinted at in early drafts of The Lord of the Rings. For example, the passage that was originally:
The wood-elves tracked him first, an easy task for them, for his trail was still fresh then. Through Mirkwood and back again it led them, though they never caught him. The wood was full of the rumour of him, dreadful tales even among beasts and birds. The Woodmen said there was some new terror abroad, a ghost that stole pants. It climbed over fences to raid washing lines; it felt into washing machines to search the laundry; it slipped through windows to rummage bedroom drawers. So Gollum's quote "What's 'pants' precious?" is not supposed to wash (if you see what I mean).
Assembling other such hints, it's been possible to establish that, In early drafts and plot outlines of LOTR:
- Gollum's lingerie larceny included a successful raid upon the Eagles, who were therefore too embarrassed to assist the Wise by conveniently flying the Ring to Mordor and dropping it in the lava. It took until nearly the end of Book 5 before their mail-ordered replacements arrived.
- A certain lady Balrog in Moria was left pantless, but not without the light floaty top which billows up so attractively in the heat around a balrog, and is mistaken by some for wings. (This is an understandable mistake: few who have inspected a balrog closely have survived). Not a morning person at the best of times, this theft - ontop of the pounding drums the morning after a lot of Real Ale and a poorly- received performance at Open Mic. night - explains Ms. Balrog's foul mood by the time the Fellowship arrived. And any chance of righting the misunderstanding was finished when she was convinced she heard Gandalf, over the roar of the flames, shout "You Can Not Sing Parts!" Well, really! She'd been the only one in tune.
- Lastly, the hasty withdrawal of the Black Riders after an abortive attack on the camp at Weathertop is much more easily explained if one realises that, thanks to earlier actions by Gollum reducing their supplies of clean pants, an acute underwear problem just had to be dealt with before any further attack on the Ringbearer could possibly be made. The only clue to this remaining in the published text is Aragorn's line "More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth." Further elaboration of what happens to wraithes terrified by hearing the name Elbereth was felt to lower the tone of that section, and only gets further consideration in the as-yet unpublished volume of Tolkien's writings, Unstarted Tales. That does provide some additional material, however, and sheds light on a further minor mystery. Laundry is obviously a particular problem for wraiths in the wilderness, due to their fear of water, and the Nazgul would not normally have been in the field so long without their support unit, The Laundromat of Sauron. So they felt themselves fortunate to discover a newly-opened laundry just east of Bree ("How handy! I swear that wasn't there yesterday!"). This was run by a kindly, strangely familiar, old man with a long white beard and a grey robe. He did an excellent job of cleaning the Black Boxers and the Y-fronts of Angmar, but did detain the Riders for a strangely long time. Even allowing for their choice of the Gold service, which includes treating the items with ValarGuard, a wise precaution against further Weathertop-like mishaps. By the time the Black Riders were finished in the laundry, it was just too late to cut Frodo off at the Ford. This of course fills in a further mystery which has puzzled many readers and been a matter of much discussion in the Reading Room - exactly what is Gandalf up to after he leaves Weathertop and before he rejoins the tale at Rivendell? It seems probable that the whole laundry episode was too embarrassing and painful to recount at first, and that matters were too busy later. And so Frodo was left with the somewhat implausible tale that Gandalf had got lost, and never learned of yet another service which Gandalf had rendered him, and the whole of Middle-earth.
Yes, this explains a great deal which otherwise confuses the careful reader!
Though not, unfortunately, the matter of the First Age, Elros, Elrond, Gil-galad, etc. Good thing that others have more learning... or less coffee.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 30 2013, 10:16am
Post #38 of 160
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Further to that last post, I've just realised that this all makes sense of another mystery - the Archive of Gondor contains that early fourth age military correspondence between King Elessar, Princess Eowyn and Prince Faramir about the defenses of Ithilien. In this, Faramir's Ithilien Rangers are repeatedly referred to as "The First Gondor Commando Unit", a nickname which has been popularly taken to be a battle honour for their ambushes of Sauron's gathering forces (such as the one witnessed by Frodo and Sam). But Barahir, grandson of Faramir, (who wrote down the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen) comments obliquely that calling the Rangers The First Gondor Commando Unit started as "a family joke at the expense of my grandfather" -- a reference which has much puzzled scholars.
I see it all now - clearly Gollum was up to his old pants-stealing tricks, and Faramir's company of Ithilien Rangers soon discovered they had donated more than just provisions and walking staves to the Ringbearers' party. One imagines that poor Faramir had to put up with a lot of good-natured teasing about the matter from his wife and his liege-lord....
You see, this explains everything (and so, of course, is complete nonsense...)
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 30 2013, 10:36am
Post #39 of 160
(1578 views)
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Ok Ardamire! That's genuis! count my YES vote for Kilts
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Seriously, that would be awesome RR attire!!!!.  So my vote would be Commando Kilts guys. (**waves hand**) Dress for the occasion!
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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erynion
Lorien
Apr 30 2013, 11:13am
Post #41 of 160
(1576 views)
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Somehow I always understood it in the way that the Sons of Feanor didn't capture Elrond and Elros at all, but instead found them hiding from the assault itself.
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I find that idea interesting because it would mean that a lot would be kept from the twins when they were children. Maedhros and Maglor may have thought of demanding a ransom when they took them in, but they also ended up loving them and so may not have told the twins that it was actually their fault their city had been sacked and they had lost their parents. So for the longest time, Elrond and Elros might have felt they were taken in by kindly outsiders, developed a healthy case of Stockholm Syndrome, until somehow they learned the truth and decided to leave? Perhaps Maglor told them when they were a bit older, out of guilt, and they stayed because they did look at them like foster parents. Somehow, I imagine Elros to be the angrier one who would be more determined that the quest for the Silmarils wasn't their problem and they should get back to their own kind. But it could have happened that way, surely?
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erynion
Lorien
Apr 30 2013, 11:16am
Post #42 of 160
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It really does seem like one story split into two.
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Though I guess we can't know which one came first. But I like the idea that Elured and Elurin were the ones captured and abandoned, whereas Elrond and Elros just fled from a battle. Perhaps telling them to get away and not let go of each others' hands were Elwing's last words to her sons?
But I generally think Elured and Elurin are somehow connected to the other two sets of twins in that lineage. Perhaps Elladan and Elrohir are them, reborn...? I'm not sure I go with that idea but I have played with it.
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erynion
Lorien
Apr 30 2013, 11:20am
Post #43 of 160
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Is anything said about Maglor's wife anywhere? I read that he has one, but I don't remember where, or even if it was reliably canon. But I think if he had one then Elrond and Elros might even have got confused over whether their parents had ever been anyone else (but then again, they're Elf children, they might be more advanced than to make such a mistake.)
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erynion
Lorien
Apr 30 2013, 11:29am
Post #44 of 160
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I had another thought about Earendil meeting his boys again earlier...
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And that's assuming that he hovered over the entire army (which, I guess, is a combination of the Beleriand Elves - leftover Noldor, Cirdan's Teleri, Doriath, Gondolin and Nargothrond refugees, and any stray Nandor) with his ship, never touching the ground, but lighting the way for everyone and blinding the orcs, wolves, balrogs, etc. that crossed their path, thus making them easier to find and defeat. After the end of the war, I imagined this scene where the twins and Eonwe would stand on a mountaintop or cliff, and Earendil bring Vingilot down to them and talk to them that way - never actually touching the floor. (I think that's a pretty cool image, too, shiny ship with the sea in the background and bewildered twins.. *__*) Mostly he'd talk about the choice between Men and Elves they could make, but I like to think it could be emotional, too. Then Eonwe would be right there with them to advise them on what exactly their choice would entail, and to take back the message of what they chose to the Valar. I'd actually love to write that scene (and at the same time describe many Elves camping by the seashore and on countless ships, exhausted from decades of travelling and war and confused as to whether they'll have to move again) but I think I couldn't get the language right. v.v
and thank you 
(This post was edited by erynion on Apr 30 2013, 11:31am)
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 30 2013, 11:37am
Post #45 of 160
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wow, just had an elros thought....
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[erynion] I find that idea interesting because it would mean that a lot would be kept from the twins when they were children. Maedhros and Maglor may have thought of demanding a ransom when they took them in, but they also ended up loving them and so may not have told the twins that it was actually their fault their city had been sacked and they had lost their parents. So for the longest time, Elrond and Elros might have felt they were taken in by kindly outsiders, developed a healthy case of Stockholm Syndrome, until somehow they learned the truth and decided to leave? Perhaps Maglor told them when they were a bit older, out of guilt, and they stayed because they did look at them like foster parents. Somehow, I imagine Elros to be the angrier one who would be more determined that the quest for the Silmarils wasn't their problem and they should get back to their own kind. But it could have happened that way, surely? [/erynion]
i have always wondered what propelled elros to take up the fate of the edain. he wasn't raised in its culture, didn't have as many key edain figures in his life as elven (did he have any? any close ones?), and he (presumably) had exceedingly close ties with his twin brother, elrond (common with twins), which would have been heightened by the fact that they had lost their parents and had no other immediate family members.
so what could have compelled elros to make a choice that would sever him (presumably) forever from those he loved? at first glance, was it the power and prestige of being king of a new kingdom? was it the adventure of it all?
or was it that, being first-hand witness to all the betrayal and ugliness that was supposed to be not the way of the wiser, more skilled, and beautiful race, that he said -- "enough!" and was so disgusted with not just the sons of feanor (and i would think that his feelings about the feanorian sons who raised him would be incredibly conflicted) that he self-exiled from his entire race?
i will be mulling that over.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
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erynion
Lorien
Apr 30 2013, 11:42am
Post #46 of 160
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I do wonder where men were at the end of the First Age, and I reckon the only thing that makes sense is that they were with the Elves, seeking refuge there. What else could they do? And they were friends with them anyway, so realizing all the Elves were going to the Isle of Balar, they would have gone there too.
So what my gf and I think and have been talking about lately is that Elros was friends with the men around him and just enjoyed their company - something that led to him actually leading them in battle, while Elrond became a herald to Gil-galad. After that, and especially in the situation of suddenly being given the choice to be with either the one or the other, I think it was clear to Elros where he desired to be most. Which must have broken Elrond's heart. But I also think Elros was pissed off with the Feanorians and possibly also with his own parents, for abandoning the twins when they didn't have to.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 30 2013, 11:47am
Post #47 of 160
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so cool that you have actual, real-life discussions about tolkien with your gf. for the most part, this does not happen in my corporeal life.
so cool! : )
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 30 2013, 11:56am
Post #48 of 160
(1597 views)
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[erynion] I do wonder where men were at the end of the First Age, and I reckon the only thing that makes sense is that they were with the Elves, seeking refuge there. What else could they do? And they were friends with them anyway, so realizing all the Elves were going to the Isle of Balar, they would have gone there too.
So what my gf and I think and have been talking about lately is that Elros was friends with the men around him and just enjoyed their company - something that led to him actually leading them in battle, while Elrond became a herald to Gil-galad. After that, and especially in the situation of suddenly being given the choice to be with either the one or the other, I think it was clear to Elros where he desired to be most. Which must have broken Elrond's heart. But I also think Elros was pissed off with the Feanorians and possibly also with his own parents, for abandoning the twins when they didn't have to. [/erynion]
also, parental abandonment/orphanment comes up a lot in tolkien's world.
sometimes it is voluntary (like with the horrible example of miriel), and sometimes it's because of external causes (like the attack of doriath, with dior and nimloth's twin sons).
i, too, have wondered about earendil's and elwing's separation from elros and elrond.
there's the possibility that the valar said, "no more middle earth for you!" but that's problematic with what tolkien wrote of elven childbirth and childrearing -- children were meant to be raised by their parents, and the valar supported a sort of coda of rules about the eldar (e.g., decreeing if they could be rebodied). but the valar were also known to meddle (calling the eldar to aman), so... a conundrum.
the thought of earendil and elwing abandoning their young sons is even more disturbing.
but, whatever the reason, even if it was beyond their control, it doesn't mean that the twins didn't have abandonment issues, and wouldn't have blamed their parents. i'm building a picture of elros in my mind that has had so much abandonment and loss and disillusionment in his own kind that he just, in the end, rejected them all.
and, poor elrond. so much loss. orphaned. raised by the slayers of his immediate family (wow!), forever separated from his brother (by his brother's own volition), separated from his wife, who suffered a grave injury, and forever separated from his daughter.
elrond has had a lot to bear, which perhaps has had bearing on his wisdom.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
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dik-dik
Lorien
Apr 30 2013, 1:22pm
Post #49 of 160
(1544 views)
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Concerning Elros and Elrond: I have always assumed the Feanoreans let them go at some point; I don't think there's any canon information on their upbringing until the War of Wrath. The only known (at least to me) piece implies that they lived with the Sons of Feanor (or Maglor at least, in the Silm. version) long enough for the children to grow to love their captor(s) despite their deeds. That in my opinion is a matter of more than a few years.
None of the Elves at the Havens would have welcomed the Fëanorians or hear any news from them, so chances are they thought Elrond and Elros were dead.
My interpretation is that the survivors of Sirion informed Cirdan's and Gil-galad's rescue troops that the children were alive but captured. And I think the residents of Balar didn't have sufficient numbers to pursue the Feanoreans into the wilds where creatures of the enemy could roam. Maybe the famed Elven foresight comes into play here as well - one or more of the Balar Elves (Cirdan comes to my mind first and foremost) could feel the children had yet a part to play in history. I too recall reading about how Beleriand was completely overrun by the enemy, so my guess as for Elros and Elond's place of residence after Sirion would be first the wilds of Ossiriand, and subsequently Balar. But I have no book evidence for the latter, and only an implied one for the former.
Concerning Gil-galad - I like your idea that it was the War of Wrath that earned him his epesse. After all, if I go by his Silmarillion parentage, Fingolfin and Fingon are likened to bright stars when in battle, aren't they?
I have no idea when Gil-galad was born, so I can't tell if he was old enough to take up kingship when news of Turgon's death reached Balar. As for Turgon, for me he's a legitimate High King, albeit 'in absentia': a bit like Finarfin (to whom I imagine the remaining Noldor of Middle-earth rallied in the War of Wrath, including Gil-galad's army, perhaps excluding the Feanoreans).
as they went, until they crossed the Blue Mountains, by which time they must have finally captured Melkor and Sauron and killed "all" their creatures; enough to stop flooding at least.
I'm intrigued, do we actually have any claim by Tolkien that the hosts of Valinor ever crossed the Blue Mountains?
I like your idea of survivors sent away by ships - or, since most of Ossiriand seems never to have been flooded, perhaps Ossiriand was kept clear of earth-chaning processes (be it the movement of the hosts or huge explosions etc.) as the way through which the survivors who couldn't fight could flee?
Bonus question: is there any chance Elrond and Elros actually met and spoke to Eärendil during or after the War of Wrath, or did he just pass over everyone in his ship like a thing of legend rather than someone who had once simply been "Ada"?
No book evidence again, but somehow I don't think the Powers would let a hallowed ship land in the tainted Outer Lands. I can well see Earendil sailing so high that even the shouted greetings of his sons would have trouble reaching him, so I'm sceptical as to whether such a reunion took place. It would have been an event of great importance, and surely recorded?
Just my two cents. :)
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 30 2013, 1:31pm
Post #50 of 160
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I'm not sure this letter necessarily represents Tolkien's final scenario here. As already noted, that tale appears in a letter dated 1958, and the idea is connected to Elrond meaning *Elf of the Cave...
... however, and not long after, Elrond is said to mean 'Star-dome' (1959-60, Quendi and Eldar). In The Shibboleth of Feanor (1968 or later) it was said that the names Elros and Elrond: 'were formed to recall the name of their mother Elwing' with Elros meaning 'Starlit foam'; and in The Problem of ROS (1968 or later): 'Now Elrond was a word for the firmament, the starry dome as it appeared like a roof to Arda; and it was given by Elwing in memory of the great Hall of the throne of Elwe in the midst of his stronghold Menegroth that was called the Menelrond,...' And in letter 345 (1972) Elrond meant 'The vault of stars'.
If a meaning 'Elf of the Cave' is out, as it appears, my guess would be that so too is the story that goes with it. Of course it's not necessarily so, I admit...
... but just to make a hazy scenario even hazier
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