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need help filling in some blanks please (First Age, Elros, Elrond, Gil-galad, etc.)
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erynion
Lorien

Apr 29 2013, 5:32pm

Post #1 of 160 (1255 views)
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need help filling in some blanks please (First Age, Elros, Elrond, Gil-galad, etc.) Can't Post

(FYI, I'm taking dates from the lotrproject.com timeline because I saw the guy who makes the site at HobbitCon and he was awesome, if those are not correct, I don't know any better, so please tell me :) But regardless of the precise dates, my question will still work.)

My problem starts in the First Age..

FA 0534 - Eärendil begins his great voyages in the search for Valinor.
0542 - Eärendil and Elwing arrive in Valinor and ask the Valar for aid the fight against Morgoth.0545 - The host of the Valar arrives in Beleriand and the War of Wrath begins.
0587 - The War of Wrath ends. Morgoth is defeated and most parts of Belerian has sunk into the sea.
0590
- Morgoth is cast into the Void.
SA 0032 - The Edain and a few Drúedain reach Númenor and Elros is crowned first King of Númenor.

..and ends early into the Second Age, right there.

What I'm interested in is the whereabouts of several individuals during this 88 year time window.

First off, I'd like to know about Elrond and Elros. We know they were born in Arvernien, and I suppose Eärendil left them with Elwing at the Havens of Sirion (?) when he went to seek Valinor. But she casts herself into the sea and before we know it the twins are being taken in by Maedhros and Maglor. That's the last we see of them until they're given the choice between death and immortality after the War of Wrath - a whole 48 years later. What did they do inbetween?

What confuses me is that it's said they were raised by the Sons of Fëanor, but I don't quite understand how that works. Surely Maedhros and Maglor lived secluded from all the other Elves that were left in Middle Earth, seeing as they had repeatedly attacked them for the Silmarils. So then how could the twins become integrated with the exiles of Beleriand? None of the Elves at the Havens would have welcomed the Fëanorians or hear any news from them, so chances are they thought Elrond and Elros were dead. But these would be childhood friends of Elwing's from Doriath and Eärendil's from Gondolin, people who would be interested in the wellbeing of these children. Didn't they look for them? Would they welcome them if they came to them at the Isle of Balar (or anywhere else - were there any Elven settlements anywhere but Balar after the attack on Sirion?) or would they mistrust them for having been raised by the Sons of Fëanor?

Personally, I imagine that Elrond and Elros would have ended up with Círdan on the Isle of Balar. This makes sense because the impression is repeatedly given that the Isle of Balar was a last resort, a shelter for injured, traumatized and homeless Elves, and of course lastly a safe haven for everyone when Beleriand was overrun by the enemy completely. But such a place would be ideal for both the twins' future "professions": Elrond's as a healer as he could have had ample chance to learn to tend to sick and injured people, and Elros' as a Númenorian, as he would have learned much about seafaring there and I feel that's rather a requirement for becoming King of Númenor.

Mentioning Círdan also brings me to my next question - Gil-galad. It says that his father (be it Fingon or Orodreth) sent him to stay with Círdan to be safe, and that he became High King of the Noldor after the Fall of Gondolin. But the Noldor would have been without a king for a very long time already, seeing as they never heard from Turgon. Also, there must have been very few Noldor left at the end of the First Age, so did Ereinion actually act upon his inherited position? I assume he lead the Noldor in the War of Wrath and did some great (unwritten?) deeds that earned him the name Gil-galad (as that, I think, is a name that needs to be earned rather than just given "because he is king.") But is it not possible that he was a little like Aragorn, in the care of Círdan and his mother (assuming she went with him) and patiently waiting and training until the time when it would be appropriate for him to act as king? If so, would that not be much later, when Lindon was being established as a kingdom?

And lastly, my question concerns the flooding of Beleriand. I suppose the Host of the Valar marched with the sea following them, sweeping everything evil (and everything else) away as they went, until they crossed the Blue Mountains, by which time they must have finally captured Melkor and Sauron and killed "all" their creatures; enough to stop flooding at least. But what did the other Elves do? Did everyone march? Surely not women and children. Were they packed into ships that rarely landed, because the shoreline kept changing all the time anyway? Was it a "Noah's Ark" (or "Waterworld" XD) scenario in which the Elves just sailed East until finally they felt safe enough at the Grey Havens to make a settlement, having watched that shore for a decade or so and decided it wasn't going to move up any further?


Bonus question: is there any chance Elrond and Elros actually met and spoke to Eärendil during or after the War of Wrath, or did he just pass over everyone in his ship like a thing of legend rather than someone who had once simply been "Ada"? I suppose they must have learned of the choice they could make somehow.


If anyone could provide me with Tolkien canon (however contradictory ;)) and own opinions I'd love to discuss these things!


(This post was edited by erynion on Apr 29 2013, 5:35pm)


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Apr 29 2013, 7:00pm

Post #2 of 160 (610 views)
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Hi erynion. [In reply to] Can't Post

I have moved your post to the Reading Room because, given the detailed nature of your questions, I think you'll get more responses among the RR's regulars.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


erynion
Lorien

Apr 29 2013, 7:07pm

Post #3 of 160 (578 views)
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sure thing, thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

the reading room intimidated me a little, I didn't want to presume I knew enough xD But Thanks!


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 29 2013, 7:13pm

Post #4 of 160 (541 views)
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Wonderfully engaging post [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm afraid I can only offer opinions and can't cite any text references. Your answers to your own questions are very well-reasoned, and those are conclusions I arrive at also.

1. Elrond and Elros are raised by Cirdan, or next of kin (they're related to everyone), on Balar. Did they see their father again during or after the War of Wrath? Sometimes it seems like parents should have reunions with their children in Tolkien's world, but they often don't. While it would seem logical, I wouldn't bet on it.

2. I think the title of High King of the Noldor was empty under Turgon. Gondolin was strong, but almost as isolated from the other Noldor in Beleriand as Valinor was, so Finarfin might as well have been their king too. Turgon was certainly not sending out royal spokesmen to convey his edicts to the rest of the Noldor, and with Finarfin's house largely wiped out, and the Sons of Feanor acting independently most of the time, it just held no weight. When Ereinion took the title, I think it was mostly symbolic. Did Cirdan and Gil-Galad co-rule Balar? Hard to say. Maybe when Ereinion was still youthful, he deferred to Cirdan, but once they were established at Lindon, Gil-Galad seems to have the greater authority, and maybe Cirdan mentored him for that position as Elrond groomed Aragorn.

There were still enough Noldor left after the war to make a sizable colony in Hollin and make up a substantial part of the population at Lindon. A few thousand, maybe? By then Galadriel was ruling only Sylvan Elves in Lorien. She didn't seem to lay claim to rule the surviving Noldor from the realms of her brothers. With the Sons of Feanor gone, Gil-Galad could assert control over all the remaining Noldor from all three houses in a way that he couldn't while the Sons were still alive, so the War of Wrath resulted in him having more Noldorin followers than before. Did he get his title from fighting in the War of Wrath? I would guess so, but I always wonder myself.

3. I'm never sure what to make of the details of the drowning of Beleriand. I get the sense that this is a Clash of the Titans and beyond mortal comprehension, so whatever happened, I'm not sure it could be explained in practical terms of where people went and how they survived. Valid question, I just don't know that we could get answers.


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 29 2013, 7:15pm

Post #5 of 160 (556 views)
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Someday I hope we'll outgrow our reputation for intimidation. :) [In reply to] Can't Post

We mostly just like talking about Tolkien, and some know more, some know less, but I hope everyone feels welcome to jump in. As long as you know what a Baggins is, you know enough.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 29 2013, 7:19pm

Post #6 of 160 (533 views)
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As long as we have a reputation for scary... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm thinking we should get a couple pet Balrogs, or maybe swear a few rash oaths about newcomers.

Or we could make it really scary and sing Tra-la-la-lally once in a while.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Apr 29 2013, 7:26pm

Post #7 of 160 (544 views)
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Noooooo! Anything but that! [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, singing some of Bombadil's songs would be more frightening...

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 29 2013, 7:31pm

Post #8 of 160 (523 views)
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Hey, ho, tra-la-la-lally, Tom Bombadillo! [In reply to] Can't Post

That should keep 'em away! Pirate

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 29 2013, 7:33pm

Post #9 of 160 (514 views)
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LOL! Great ideas [In reply to] Can't Post

With a welcome message saying, "Abandon all hope, ye who have not memorized the HoME series. You will be devoured."


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 29 2013, 7:34pm

Post #10 of 160 (515 views)
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Yes, I don't think Tom had any real power over the Barrow Wight [In reply to] Can't Post

It was just the lyrics of his "song" that drove the poor creature away. Fatty Lumpkin must have worn earplugs.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 29 2013, 7:35pm

Post #11 of 160 (481 views)
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Oh, I quite like that... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll start painting right away!

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Apr 29 2013, 7:50pm

Post #12 of 160 (508 views)
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What's a "Baggins", precious? Is it tasty? Is it scrumptious? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Apr 29 2013, 7:57pm

Post #13 of 160 (487 views)
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Welcome to the Fellowship of the Room// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 8:02pm

Post #14 of 160 (525 views)
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Love your post erynion! [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't do a ton of research right now (I'm at work, haha!) but in Letter #211 JRRT writes a bit about Elrond and Elros and infants: "Elrond and Elros, children of Earandil (sea-lover) and Elwing (Elf-foam) were so called, because they were carried off by the sons of Feanor, in the last act of the feud between the high-elven houses of the Noldorin princes concerning the Silmarils; the Silmaril rescued from Morgoth by Beren and Luthien , and given to King Thingol Luthien's father, had descended to Elwing dtr. of Dior, son of Luthien. The infants were not slain, but left like 'babes in the wood', in a cave with a fall of water over the entrance. There they were found: Elrond within the cave and Elros dabbling in the water."'

So this suggests that the infants being 'found' seems to indicate that someone with their interest in mind recovered them - obviously they remained unharmed. That the Feanorian sons are described as 'carrying them off' and then there is a 'finding' component, this implies that they are not one and the same. I am curious as to the timing and to the motive for hiding the children. Were they taken after Elwing followed Earandil, as revenge (it dies say 'feud'); in which case they were kidnapped from Noldor caretakers? Were they taken in an effort to blackmail the parents into returning to ME with the Silmaril, the Feanorian's not aware of the mission Earandil was undertaking, and that's why they were 'stashed' as it were, to be bargained for?

I found this passage quickly because I have been pondering its meaning myself since last week. Will look more into it later but also would like to see if anyone else can fill in the blanks.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 8:30pm

Post #15 of 160 (502 views)
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Further thought [In reply to] Can't Post

I very much like your Balar and Cirdan hypothesis. Adds another dimension to the departure at the Grey Havens, doesn't it? Can't wait to get home to my books to read a bit more.

And a warm (if belated) Welcome to the Reading Room! Seriously, we don't bite. Much. Wink Hahhaha. Nah we only nip, like ponies.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


elaen32
Gondor

Apr 29 2013, 8:46pm

Post #16 of 160 (491 views)
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Nah.. [In reply to] Can't Post

there's a lot more "nipping" goes on on the Hobbit boards these days. Here it is much more civilised and there are even comfy chairs! And the odd glass of Old Winyard if one feels so inclined!Wink

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 29 2013, 9:13pm

Post #17 of 160 (515 views)
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Maglor and the boys [In reply to] Can't Post

My books also at home, but going from memory:

In the attack on Doriath, the servants of one of the Sons of Feanor left Elwing's brothers to die in the woods in apparent retaliation for the death of their master. That seemed motivation for Maglor to be protective of Elwing's sons to prevent a repeat in the attack on the Sirion refugee community, so he took in Elrond and Elros and sheltered them. Tolkien says something about some affection growing between the rescuer and the boys, "as little might be thought." It was my assumption that Maglor later turned them over to someone in the community, or maybe he kept them during the war and they left him afterwards???

It seems like the Tolkien letter you're citing has him later splitting that story in two with the two sets of brothers.


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 29 2013, 9:15pm

Post #18 of 160 (475 views)
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We should warn you, erynion, that it's possible to be eaten here by some of our hungry members. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 10:17pm

Post #19 of 160 (447 views)
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This Letter puzzled me, that's why I had bookmarked it [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
My books also at home, but going from memory:

In the attack on Doriath, the servants of one of the Sons of Feanor left Elwing's brothers to die in the woods in apparent retaliation for the death of their master. That seemed motivation for Maglor to be protective of Elwing's sons to prevent a repeat in the attack on the Sirion refugee community, so he took in Elrond and Elros and sheltered them. Tolkien says something about some affection growing between the rescuer and the boys, "as little might be thought." It was my assumption that Maglor later turned them over to someone in the community, or maybe he kept them during the war and they left him afterwards???

It seems like the Tolkien letter you're citing has him later splitting that story in two with the two sets of brothers.




Yeah CG I am a bit confused by it. I can't quite make out the timing - after the attack on Doriath? and it seems odd that he used such a specific detail as what the babies were doing in a story not more fleshed out. (I am deeply impressed by your memory of the details here BTW.)

I am trying to remember too - did Maglor and Maehdros they raise them and tried to hide their deeds? It does seem like JRRT is implying TWO sets of Feanorian sons (he had enough) - one set to take the boys and someone who finds them - if they raise them, then it would seem that Maglor and Maehdros are the finders. As the original post states (such lovely detail) the next we would see of them is at the arrival of - I think - Eonwe the herald. (? digging deep here.) In which case they must have matured with Maehdros and Maglor. They must have been loved, by the way they both turn out. I would guess though that they never see their parents again.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 29 2013, 10:29pm

Post #20 of 160 (496 views)
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You're rhythm is eerily Sauron-esque [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
one set to take the boys and someone who finds them

One nanny hugs them all and in the preschool minds them.


Which is not as sinister as Sauron, I'll grant you.


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 29 2013, 11:28pm

Post #21 of 160 (475 views)
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Now book is in hand [In reply to] Can't Post

Ruin of Doriath: Celegorm stirs up his brothers to attack Dior in Menegroth and dies in battle with the latter. But Dior and his wife Nimloth are killed, and Celegorm's cruel servants "seized his young sons and left them to starve in the forest. Of this Maedhros indeed repented, and sought for them long..." but "of the fate of Elured and Elurin, no tale tells."

Then in the attack on the Sirion haven, "Maglor took pity on Elrond and Elros, and he cherished them, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought."

It sounds like they spent a fair amount of time with Maglor for that love to grow--it wouldn't be there at the start. Do you suppose the "cherished" meant he cherished them as his own children and raised them to adulthood?


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 29 2013, 11:49pm

Post #22 of 160 (458 views)
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geez... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
"seized his young sons and left them to starve in the forest."

geez.... what the fingon?

for the edain, this is cruel. for the first-born, wisest of all the children of iluvatar, the caliquendi, who have walked with the valar in valinor?

not the first i've heard of this tale, but it always brings me up short.


disgusted lamentations --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 12:06am

Post #23 of 160 (452 views)
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Wow. It is an eerie rhythm. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
one set to take the boys and someone who finds them

One nanny hugs them all and in the preschool minds them.


Which is not as sinister as Sauron, I'll grant you.






Didn't realize it . That's freaky !!!! (Even better - one set to take the boys and one set to find them....)

I would guess yes, out of guilt and natural instincts and he did cherish them, and raise them 'as his' although at some point they learn the truth, if it was hidden from them. Did a good job too, by all accounts...Elrond sort of repeats family history here, never seeing Arwen again after her choice.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 30 2013, 12:09am)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 30 2013, 1:27am

Post #24 of 160 (411 views)
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if you knew [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote
[erynion] the reading room intimidated me a little, I didn't want to presume I knew enough xD But Thanks! [/erynion]



if you knew everyone here posted without their pants on, would it seem less intimidating? i hope that is the case, because i assure you, everyone does do this.

you will too, after you've been posting here long enough. (full disclosure: i'm not wearing pants.)

it's not a rule or anything. no one's going to ask you, "hey! erynion! i read that very insightful post you made on the elves' immortality... were you wearing pants when you posted that?"

no, no one asks. after a while, it's just assumed. that is the only drawback to posting.


cheers (and mae govannen!!!) --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 30 2013, 1:29am)


batik
Tol Eressea


Apr 30 2013, 1:37am

Post #25 of 160 (403 views)
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I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my" ...pants. (!!!)// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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