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need help filling in some blanks please (First Age, Elros, Elrond, Gil-galad, etc.)

erynion
Lorien

Apr 29 2013, 5:32pm


Views: 1154
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need help filling in some blanks please (First Age, Elros, Elrond, Gil-galad, etc.) Can't Post

(FYI, I'm taking dates from the lotrproject.com timeline because I saw the guy who makes the site at HobbitCon and he was awesome, if those are not correct, I don't know any better, so please tell me :) But regardless of the precise dates, my question will still work.)

My problem starts in the First Age..

FA 0534 - Eärendil begins his great voyages in the search for Valinor.
0542 - Eärendil and Elwing arrive in Valinor and ask the Valar for aid the fight against Morgoth.0545 - The host of the Valar arrives in Beleriand and the War of Wrath begins.
0587 - The War of Wrath ends. Morgoth is defeated and most parts of Belerian has sunk into the sea.
0590
- Morgoth is cast into the Void.
SA 0032 - The Edain and a few Drúedain reach Númenor and Elros is crowned first King of Númenor.

..and ends early into the Second Age, right there.

What I'm interested in is the whereabouts of several individuals during this 88 year time window.

First off, I'd like to know about Elrond and Elros. We know they were born in Arvernien, and I suppose Eärendil left them with Elwing at the Havens of Sirion (?) when he went to seek Valinor. But she casts herself into the sea and before we know it the twins are being taken in by Maedhros and Maglor. That's the last we see of them until they're given the choice between death and immortality after the War of Wrath - a whole 48 years later. What did they do inbetween?

What confuses me is that it's said they were raised by the Sons of Fëanor, but I don't quite understand how that works. Surely Maedhros and Maglor lived secluded from all the other Elves that were left in Middle Earth, seeing as they had repeatedly attacked them for the Silmarils. So then how could the twins become integrated with the exiles of Beleriand? None of the Elves at the Havens would have welcomed the Fëanorians or hear any news from them, so chances are they thought Elrond and Elros were dead. But these would be childhood friends of Elwing's from Doriath and Eärendil's from Gondolin, people who would be interested in the wellbeing of these children. Didn't they look for them? Would they welcome them if they came to them at the Isle of Balar (or anywhere else - were there any Elven settlements anywhere but Balar after the attack on Sirion?) or would they mistrust them for having been raised by the Sons of Fëanor?

Personally, I imagine that Elrond and Elros would have ended up with Círdan on the Isle of Balar. This makes sense because the impression is repeatedly given that the Isle of Balar was a last resort, a shelter for injured, traumatized and homeless Elves, and of course lastly a safe haven for everyone when Beleriand was overrun by the enemy completely. But such a place would be ideal for both the twins' future "professions": Elrond's as a healer as he could have had ample chance to learn to tend to sick and injured people, and Elros' as a Númenorian, as he would have learned much about seafaring there and I feel that's rather a requirement for becoming King of Númenor.

Mentioning Círdan also brings me to my next question - Gil-galad. It says that his father (be it Fingon or Orodreth) sent him to stay with Círdan to be safe, and that he became High King of the Noldor after the Fall of Gondolin. But the Noldor would have been without a king for a very long time already, seeing as they never heard from Turgon. Also, there must have been very few Noldor left at the end of the First Age, so did Ereinion actually act upon his inherited position? I assume he lead the Noldor in the War of Wrath and did some great (unwritten?) deeds that earned him the name Gil-galad (as that, I think, is a name that needs to be earned rather than just given "because he is king.") But is it not possible that he was a little like Aragorn, in the care of Círdan and his mother (assuming she went with him) and patiently waiting and training until the time when it would be appropriate for him to act as king? If so, would that not be much later, when Lindon was being established as a kingdom?

And lastly, my question concerns the flooding of Beleriand. I suppose the Host of the Valar marched with the sea following them, sweeping everything evil (and everything else) away as they went, until they crossed the Blue Mountains, by which time they must have finally captured Melkor and Sauron and killed "all" their creatures; enough to stop flooding at least. But what did the other Elves do? Did everyone march? Surely not women and children. Were they packed into ships that rarely landed, because the shoreline kept changing all the time anyway? Was it a "Noah's Ark" (or "Waterworld" XD) scenario in which the Elves just sailed East until finally they felt safe enough at the Grey Havens to make a settlement, having watched that shore for a decade or so and decided it wasn't going to move up any further?


Bonus question: is there any chance Elrond and Elros actually met and spoke to Eärendil during or after the War of Wrath, or did he just pass over everyone in his ship like a thing of legend rather than someone who had once simply been "Ada"? I suppose they must have learned of the choice they could make somehow.


If anyone could provide me with Tolkien canon (however contradictory ;)) and own opinions I'd love to discuss these things!


(This post was edited by erynion on Apr 29 2013, 5:35pm)

Subject User Time
need help filling in some blanks please (First Age, Elros, Elrond, Gil-galad, etc.) erynion Send a private message to erynion Apr 29 2013, 5:32pm
    Hi erynion. Ataahua Send a private message to Ataahua Apr 29 2013, 7:00pm
        sure thing, thank you! erynion Send a private message to erynion Apr 29 2013, 7:07pm
            Someday I hope we'll outgrow our reputation for intimidation. :) CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 29 2013, 7:15pm
                As long as we have a reputation for scary... Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 29 2013, 7:19pm
                    Noooooo! Anything but that! Ataahua Send a private message to Ataahua Apr 29 2013, 7:26pm
                        Hey, ho, tra-la-la-lally, Tom Bombadillo! Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 29 2013, 7:31pm
                        Yes, I don't think Tom had any real power over the Barrow Wight CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 29 2013, 7:34pm
                    LOL! Great ideas CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 29 2013, 7:33pm
                        Oh, I quite like that... Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 29 2013, 7:35pm
                    Not being scary, but everyone who posts here is highly erudite ltnjmy Send a private message to ltnjmy Apr 30 2013, 5:42pm
                        Haha, thanks so much! Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 30 2013, 5:50pm
                        An old public speaking trick.... Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Apr 30 2013, 5:53pm
                        Hint on exiting the reply box CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 30 2013, 6:01pm
                            Speaking for myself.... Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Apr 30 2013, 6:04pm
                                My Pinocchio nose was growing on that one. Never stops me either. // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 30 2013, 6:05pm
                What's a "Baggins", precious? Is it tasty? Is it scrumptious? // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 29 2013, 7:50pm
                    We should warn you, erynion, that it's possible to be eaten here by some of our hungry members. // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 29 2013, 9:15pm
            Welcome to the Fellowship of the Room// noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 29 2013, 7:57pm
            if you knew Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 30 2013, 1:27am
                I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my" ...pants. (!!!)// batik Send a private message to batik Apr 30 2013, 1:37am
                    hmmmm...... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 30 2013, 1:46am
                What are pants? // Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 30 2013, 2:11am
                    ardamire, that's the spirit!!! // Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 30 2013, 2:14am
                        I must confess... Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 30 2013, 2:23am
                            really? Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 30 2013, 2:29am
                                Maybe I'll switch to a kilt Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 30 2013, 2:40am
                                    well... erynion Send a private message to erynion Apr 30 2013, 6:09am
                                        Obviously you'll fit right in here. // Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Apr 30 2013, 7:30am
                                            Tying up the subthreads (except the sensible one). noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 30 2013, 9:23am
                                                Faramir's rangers noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 30 2013, 10:16am
                                    Ok Ardamire! That's genuis! count my YES vote for Kilts Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 30 2013, 10:36am
                                        Been sewing furiously overnight... Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 30 2013, 5:00pm
                                            Wot- no more "out of kilt-er" posts with the new dress code? // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 30 2013, 5:37pm
                                                Do you not like my kilts!? Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 30 2013, 5:52pm
                                                    Kilts CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 30 2013, 6:04pm
                                                        Nope Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 30 2013, 6:11pm
                                                    I adore your handiwork Ardamire!!!! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 30 2013, 6:54pm
                                                        I knew you'd love the pattern Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 30 2013, 7:03pm
                                                    Love the kilt, but noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 30 2013, 8:55pm
                                                        Bahahaha lovely! Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 30 2013, 9:05pm
                                                            What has it got in its sporranses, precious?// elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Apr 30 2013, 9:09pm
                                                                Eek! Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 30 2013, 9:33pm
                                                            Girdles done Ardamire! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 30 2013, 11:06pm
                                                                Magic even? Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë May 1 2013, 2:13am
                                                                    Sweet! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 1 2013, 3:13am
                                                                        Your suggestions Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë May 1 2013, 3:37am
                                                                            Yeah, we got this! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 1 2013, 10:58am
                                                        It's buried between the Bra of Ungoliant and Trousers of Tulkas. // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 30 2013, 9:15pm
                                                            Thanks- sorted now & will try to be erudite. Or even Eru-dite, which would be a fine thing in Middle-earth! // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 30 2013, 9:23pm
                                                                You are on a roll with these! :) // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 30 2013, 9:25pm
                Pants - a definition... elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Apr 30 2013, 8:13am
                    I speak UK English, so... fear. XD erynion Send a private message to erynion Apr 30 2013, 9:04am
    Wonderfully engaging post CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 29 2013, 7:13pm
    Love your post erynion! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 29 2013, 8:02pm
        Maglor and the boys CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 29 2013, 9:13pm
            This Letter puzzled me, that's why I had bookmarked it Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 29 2013, 10:17pm
                You're rhythm is eerily Sauron-esque CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 29 2013, 10:29pm
                    Wow. It is an eerie rhythm. Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 30 2013, 12:06am
                Now book is in hand CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 29 2013, 11:28pm
                    geez... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 29 2013, 11:49pm
                    I like to think so. erynion Send a private message to erynion Apr 30 2013, 11:20am
            It really does seem like one story split into two. erynion Send a private message to erynion Apr 30 2013, 11:16am
                The ideas in this discussion are amazing. Thanks so much for beginning this thread!... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 30 2013, 3:32pm
        Somehow I always understood it in the way that the Sons of Feanor didn't capture Elrond and Elros at all, but instead found them hiding from the assault itself. erynion Send a private message to erynion Apr 30 2013, 11:13am
            wow, just had an elros thought.... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 30 2013, 11:37am
                Elros and the Edain erynion Send a private message to erynion Apr 30 2013, 11:42am
                    so cool Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 30 2013, 11:47am
                    also Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 30 2013, 11:56am
                    There were Men at Sirion CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 30 2013, 1:54pm
                    there is the question of being Men PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Apr 30 2013, 4:14pm
                        I think Elros just took to Men as soon as he met them. erynion Send a private message to erynion Apr 30 2013, 5:32pm
                        Like father, like son CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 30 2013, 5:42pm
                            Plot device elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Apr 30 2013, 8:59pm
                            that's probably truefor Tolkien's motives, but I like to think of stories from their characters' points of view :) erynion Send a private message to erynion Apr 30 2013, 9:50pm
                            i actually am in agreement... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 30 2013, 9:54pm
                        Excellent point Phantom Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 30 2013, 7:45pm
                Love. Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Apr 30 2013, 7:36pm
                    i +love+ this idea! Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 30 2013, 10:04pm
                        Sparse examples of male as object of love interest CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 30 2013, 10:19pm
                            it's really not the love-interest aspect Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 30 2013, 10:25pm
                                Melian? Who's Melian? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 30 2013, 10:41pm
                                    +exactly+ Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 30 2013, 10:51pm
                            Male and female roles in the mythos Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 30 2013, 11:25pm
                                Melian's quite the "seeker" though erynion Send a private message to erynion May 1 2013, 8:03am
                                    Very true in the sense of a power gradient! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 1 2013, 10:51am
                            Turin, of course. sador Send a private message to sador May 1 2013, 8:45am
                                What about Celeborn as an object of love? erynion Send a private message to erynion May 1 2013, 9:49am
                                    Don't underestimate Celeborn sador Send a private message to sador May 1 2013, 10:12am
        Cave Elf Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Apr 30 2013, 1:31pm
    Further thought Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 29 2013, 8:30pm
        Nah.. elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Apr 29 2013, 8:46pm
        It also adds to the death of Gil-galad.. erynion Send a private message to erynion Apr 30 2013, 9:09am
            Also tragically true Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 30 2013, 10:45am
                I had another thought about Earendil meeting his boys again earlier... erynion Send a private message to erynion Apr 30 2013, 11:29am
            Macfalk, if you're reading this: why didn't Cirdan ever have a son? // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 30 2013, 1:37pm
                Cirdan not having a son... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 30 2013, 8:06pm
                    I should have said "Malickfan"--oops CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 30 2013, 9:11pm
                        That's it! Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Apr 30 2013, 9:35pm
                            Well I love it, and even found a pic... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 30 2013, 10:02pm
                                I LOVE THIS!!!!!!!!! // Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë May 1 2013, 2:11am
                                    Kilts on for Chapter 11 noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme May 2 2013, 12:21pm
                        Was thinking more of whether Cirdan had boxer or briefs... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 30 2013, 10:31pm
                        No worries I struggle to remember my own username half the time malickfan Send a private message to malickfan May 4 2013, 10:28am
                            Thank you for this Malickfan! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 4 2013, 2:10pm
                    Is Cirdan even married? Or still waiting for "a cirdan someone" perhaps?// noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 30 2013, 9:21pm
                        oh, OH! Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 30 2013, 9:48pm
    Re: dik-dik Send a private message to dik-dik Apr 30 2013, 1:22pm
        just a short reply for now as I'm on my phone.. erynion Send a private message to erynion Apr 30 2013, 3:36pm
    the sinking of Beleriand Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Apr 30 2013, 2:01pm
    The War of Wrath vs. the Change of the World Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai Apr 30 2013, 4:03pm
        the 'inland city' & Hyarmenor Felagund Send a private message to Felagund May 11 2013, 4:19pm
            The inland city - Osgiliath? Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai May 11 2013, 5:34pm
                some thoughts on the Osgiliath theory Felagund Send a private message to Felagund May 12 2013, 11:36am
                    An inland city in Umbar (or elsewhere) is a possibility... Otaku-sempai Send a private message to Otaku-sempai May 13 2013, 12:44am
    On the location of Maedhros and Maglor erynion Send a private message to erynion Apr 30 2013, 5:19pm
        Amon Ereb CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 30 2013, 5:26pm
            that fits with the edit I just made to my post! perfect. :3 erynion Send a private message to erynion Apr 30 2013, 5:28pm
                might be either that... dik-dik Send a private message to dik-dik Apr 30 2013, 10:03pm
                    Ossiriand? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 30 2013, 10:34pm
                        I agree here CG on Elwing's leap Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 30 2013, 10:44pm
                            Another triple digit thread in the Reading Room CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 1 2013, 12:27am
                                Triple digits again...! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 1 2013, 10:56am
                                    I'm quite proud of this thread now :D erynion Send a private message to erynion May 2 2013, 3:04pm
                        I think M&M participated in the War of Wrath, mainly because they would see the light of the Silmaril shining on Vingilot and would stay AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to that ship, thank you very much. erynion Send a private message to erynion May 1 2013, 8:05am
    "It's a dangerous businesses, erynion, posting in the RR. Ataahua Send a private message to Ataahua May 1 2013, 4:01am
        That's fine - when old questions are answered, ask new ones. :3 erynion Send a private message to erynion May 1 2013, 8:03am
    A few comments sador Send a private message to sador May 1 2013, 9:19am
        some replies :) erynion Send a private message to erynion May 1 2013, 10:02am
            Three short notes: sador Send a private message to sador May 1 2013, 10:34am
                looong replies - more about Círdan and the flooding, Celegorm, Caranthir and Curufin, Gil-galad, Dior's aging, etc. erynion Send a private message to erynion May 2 2013, 2:54pm
                    One point about leaders killing leaders CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 2 2013, 5:09pm
                    Balar Elthir Send a private message to Elthir May 2 2013, 6:26pm
                        yep, those 42 years are what I wanted this thread to cover :3 erynion Send a private message to erynion May 2 2013, 6:40pm
                            It's pretty vague CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 2 2013, 6:50pm
                                Absolutely. And also, Gil-galad has to earn his title :3 erynion Send a private message to erynion May 2 2013, 7:06pm
                                Now some book passages to back things up CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 2 2013, 11:19pm
                    Interesting ideas about the sea advancing with the army, or even on purpose by Ulmo wildespace Send a private message to wildespace Jun 9 2013, 9:36am
            Celebrimor...hmmm Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 1 2013, 1:13pm
                Celebrimbor does seem cursed CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 1 2013, 11:40pm
                    True - I remember Legolas speaking of Hollin... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 1 2013, 11:56pm
                        Rings CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 2 2013, 12:20am
                            Thanks for the Three info! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 2 2013, 2:37am
                                you know Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 2 2013, 3:04am
                        The Dwarves sharing mithril with Celebrimbor to make Rings with makes me wonder if perhaps the Elves actually found mithril together with the Dwarves? Also: Arkenstone/Silmaril stuffs. erynion Send a private message to erynion May 2 2013, 5:22pm
                            Partial answer CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 2 2013, 6:40pm
                                In that case I wonder when the Eriador Dwarves learned of what happened in Doriath. erynion Send a private message to erynion May 2 2013, 6:44pm
                                    Good point CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 2 2013, 6:53pm
                            Nice conspiracy idea Erynion...! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 3 2013, 2:47am
    You know summink ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort May 2 2013, 8:47am
        Mitigating factors CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 2 2013, 1:28pm
        I think he's too exasperated to bother hating anymore.. erynion Send a private message to erynion May 2 2013, 2:56pm
    Man did I miss a great thread! Finwe Send a private message to Finwe May 2 2013, 6:57pm
        Well, if Finwe says so.. *bows* ^^ erynion Send a private message to erynion May 2 2013, 7:07pm
            Yes, behold! CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 2 2013, 7:24pm
                Brilliant, I am honoured! And while we're on the subject of Finwe... ;) erynion Send a private message to erynion May 2 2013, 8:00pm
                    Limitations CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 2 2013, 8:26pm
                        I read that Finrod re-embodies "soon" after his death... what exactly does that mean? erynion Send a private message to erynion May 2 2013, 8:47pm
                            Can answer Finrod part CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 2 2013, 8:52pm
                                I suppose there aren't really any rules - with active gods, you can just make it up as you go along, because they can do anything. erynion Send a private message to erynion May 2 2013, 8:54pm

 
 
 

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