RL-Finwe commented that this is a pivotal chapter for the whole book, which means I could ask a million what if's, but showing some restraint, I'll limit myself to: Admirable restraint CG....!

1. What if Feanor had consented to surrender the Silmarils to revive the Trees? Would he have still pursued Morgoth to Beleriand when he learned that the Silmarils were stolen and book-Finwe was dead? I think if he was capable of surrendering them - no. But he wasn't, and don't see without an epiphany how he would ever be. If he was at that spot in life, where he could say goodbye to the Silmarils and get past his fear, anger and possessiveness, I think he might have appropriately mourned Finwe but not pursued Morgoth. Or if he did, more justice-seeking than blind-eyed with rage. He might have let the Valar take action instead of spawning the Oath. Again - this all presumes an epiphany, which didn't happen.

2. What if Morgoth and Ungoliant succeeded in killing the Trees but were captured before leaving Aman? What would their punishment be? Knowing the Valar - chains and solitary. Like that worked out so well.

3. What if the Balrogs didn't rescue Morgoth--could Ungoliant have swallowed him? If so, would she gain all his powers? Definitely, she could have - but would his spirit just shift out and bolt? I don't think consumption would equal power gain; and do the Valar have any actual physical bodymass? It is referred to by JRRT as 'clothing' that can be changed - is it flesh? I am not sure that it is.

4. What if the Teleri grudgingly agreed to transport the Noldor to Beleriand and returned home with no ships burnt, no Kinslaying, no crossing of the Helcaraxe. Would we by sympathetic to Feanor then? Would the Curse of Mandos have happened? If so, would it seem fair, or petty vindictiveness? We probably would feel much more sympathetic towards Feanor, as the son of a murdered father, seeking justice. The curse may yet have happened - depends on how things went.

3. What if the Balrogs didn't rescue Morgoth--could Ungoliant have swallowed him? If so, would she gain all his powers? Definitely, she could have - but would his spirit just shift out and bolt? I don't think consumption would equal power gain; and do the Valar have any actual physical bodymass? It is referred to by JRRT as 'clothing' that can be changed - is it flesh? I am not sure that it is.

Since I'm not an oath-making kind of guy myself, I don't totally understand why I would ask God/gods to punish me for failing to do what I set out to do. I think the failure would be punishment enough. I probably wouldn't have fit in very well at Feanorian family festivities where people made small talk about what they were up to.

It's a bit odd that they would invoke the names of Manwe and Varda after rebelling against them and saying they were irrelevant.

I agree that the Valar lack the full understanding of the internal workings of the Noldor, but I think the Valar actually deserve more credit than most of the posters here are willing to give them and their understanding of the internal workings of the Noldor are based on a fairly consistent idea about the relation between the Elves and themselves. The Valar invited the Noldor to come to Valinor of their own free will, and if they want to depart they are equally free to do so. While they are staying in Valinor, the Elves are also allowed to govern their own affairs, without having the Valar interfering in their affairs, as long as the Elves don't openly threaten each other or show similar signs of hostility. This actually ties in with Tolkien's idea of self-government; that each people or group of families should be free to govern themselves without a big degree of centralized control or interference. Was it the wisest choice though - for the Elves? The Valar that seemed to know the world of Arda best, Ulmo, argued for the Elves to remain in Arda and heal the land of its hurts, fulfilling their sub-creative purpose as the Children of Illuvatar. The Valar seem to decide to bring them to Valinor based on two things - their desire to have their companionship and to be near their beauty, and the fear that the Elves would not be able to fend adequately for themselves. So it is self serving in the first instance, and paternalistic in the second. The fact that the Elves had to be "convinced" and politicked into coming to Valinor I feel should have been an indicator that it was not a natural move. And think of the cost to the Elves - instead of perhaps supporting them in their independence and as stewards of Arda the call to Valinor causes the first Sundering of the Elves. (A bit of the road to Helcaraxe being paved with good intentions...! Heehee!)

The Valar wanted the company of the Elves, being drawn to them and their "otherness", their gifts and how they reminded them of the will of Ilúvatar and his underlying ideas for the creation of Arda/Eä. They feel wounded that they are accused of holding the Elves captive in the same way that someone feels wounded when their good intentions seem wilfully misunderstood. True, I like this description - but it speaks of the paternalism of the Valar to me. And if you are going to 'care for' someone in that sort of parental role, you must take on the responsibility to interact that way - not to sulk (which is what I feel like they do! I know it describes them being aggrieved.) At the same time they can just as well believe that the Noldor should be free to make their own decisions by discussing things between themselves and count on the more cautious ones among the Noldor to persuade the majority of their people to arrive at the right conclusion (seen from the Valar's point of view). Exactly! From their point of view...! On the other hand, maybe it points to a blossoming of wisdom in allowing the Firstborn more independence, but maybe its too little too late. And although they are proven wrong as to the result of the discussion, it's only fair to say that the Noldor seem to be very divided in these matters and only resolve to follow Fëanor after a long debate. When they decide to leave, the majority don't accept Fëanor as their leader either, so the Valar haven't miscalculated the situation entirely. They have underestimated the power of Fëanor's words on the minds of the Noldor and the strengths of the bonds of loyalty between different parts of the Noldor, but they haven't underestimated the level of support Fëanor has a leader. "A great multitude gathered swiftly, therefore, to hear what he would say; and the hill and all the stairs and streets that climbed upon it were lit with the light of many torches that each one bore in hand." I would say they greatly underestimated the level of dissent and the level of interest that is obviously widespread and appears excited to quickly gather. "And all the Noldor ... but one tithe refused to take the road." So about 90% follow Feanor (including those against their better judgment, like Fingolfin and Finarfin). What I feel is that the haste and heat in which everything was being done was so alien to the Valar that they could not see how powerful it was. It just makes me think that having the Firstborn there, with this lack of 'sameness' was not the best choice.

Having the Valar sending a herald to speak against leaving too early would in my opinion only play into Fëanor's reasoning that the Valar are trying to stop or hinder their journey and keep them captive, so I think Manwë's decision is based on fairly sensible judgements when he decides to wait. As above, I think it the Valar are taken aback at the heat and passion that the Elves have within them when kindled, and I just don't think they ever saw it being aimed at going SO against their own ideals and plans. And when he makes decisions, they tend to be rather big strategic decisions rather than immediate measures and short term solutions, see chapter 11. His problem at the point in the story we're talking about now is partly that the Valar have not quite decided what to do about their problems; there is little help in previous knowledge and several uncertain factors to consider. When he eventually sends his herald, he tries to warn the Noldor as well as correct their accusations, which is actually all he can do at the moment, since he lacks any concrete plans of action he can propose. I agree here that the unknowns were great in this case. This was unique in history to that point, and I think the Valar simply had no comparable experience to draw upon here, or had any idea of what might actually happen. Sadly the Message, when it comes, is so miscalculating of the Elven mind and loyalties that it only cements Feanor's leadership!

I think it´s particularly interesting to look at why Fingolfin chooses to part from his brother to follow his hot-headed half-brother, even when the same half-brother abandons him to mortal danger and or humiliation. Is it pride? Stubbornness? A desire to prove himself to Fëanor and prove Fëanor wrong?