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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 16 2013, 12:02pm
Post #1 of 72
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**Silmarillion Discussion 2013, Chapter 9: Of The Flight of the Noldor
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This chapter is very rich both in action, and in the introduction of themes. Things start here which will take many further chapters to work out. It gives us a lot to discuss, and so I propose we divide it into parts. The chapter breaks naturally into 3 scenes. First, we have the scene where a great concourse of the Valar and at least some of the elves are gathered about the Ring of Doom. I suggest we discuss that far in this thread.
In further threads, I propose we then tackle:-
Melkor/Morgoth’s escape, his fight with Ungoliant and what he does with the Silmarils
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The departure of the Noldor for Middle-earth: a grim story of oaths, battles, prophecies and treachery.
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Then a final "AOB" thread to catch anything which didn't fit that scheme
As usual, I’ll provide a quick outline of the chapter and raise some questions which are intended as starters for the conversation. So its important to remind everyone that my questions are not intended to limit the discussion - feel free to raise all the very many interesting points I have probably missed! There is no need to feel obliged to answer all or indeed any of the starter questions I'm putting up. It's a conversation, not an English paper.
Okay then! At the chapter opening, the Valar and Elves have been summoned to work out how to repair the damaged trees. Yavanna says she cannot resuscitate the Trees (this starts a theme about one’s greatest works being something that can’t just be re-created at will). But she thinks she might be able to jump-start them using the only remaining source of their light, the Silmarils.
“The Light of the Trees has passed away, and lives now only in the Silmarils of Fëanor. Foresighted was he!”
Fëanor is asked to agree to letting Yavanna use the Silmarils, but he does not answer. Aule sympathetically asks that Fëanor be given time to answer (“We ask a greater thing than thou knowest”). Fëanor will not give up the Silmarils, saying that, like Yavanna, there are some things that he can accomplish only once - “if I must break them, I shall break my heart, and I shall be slain; first of all the Eldar in Aman”.
Mandos cryptically answers “Not the first”.
Fëanor is now filled with the idea that the Valar will take the Silmarils by force. But there is no opportunity to discover whether they actually intend this - messengers arrive with the news that Melkor has broken into the stronghold of Formenos, slain Finwe and stolen the Silmarils.
Fëanor curses Melkor, but also curses Manwe for summoning him - “thinking in the madness of his rage and grief that had he been at Formenos his strength would have availed more than to be slain also, as Melkor had purposed”. Fëanor then runs off into the night.
Quite a scene! Some potential starter points for discussion:
1) I note how direct and immediate the writing has become: we seem to be right in there in the meeting with them, rather than the style of earlier chapters, which report distant events much less directly. Do you feel there is a deliberate progression here for stylistic effect through the book? If so, does it work for you? Or does it depend on the various versions and edits from which each chapter was assembled (or the extent to which Tolkien had imagined the scene visually)? Or are we reflecting what information might have been available to the imagined in-world writer/editor of the Silmarillion?
That last point probably requires a bit of explanation - In earlier discussions we touched upon Tolkien not using the device he used in the Hobbit and LOTR - we don’t have Bilbo, Frodo and Sam leaving a text which Tolkien has discovered somehow and edited for the modern reader. it also seems that Tolkien considered such a device. But that it was abandoned when the Sil was prepared for publication. Such a story-outside-the-story can still be readily be imagined if you like (the Silmarillion could be a collection of histories you might find in Elrond’s library maybe, or in the Royal Library of Gondor after Aragorn becomes King. Following this thought, it would be plausible that the writer had access to eye-witnesses of this scene, or earlier eye-witness accounts. By contrast , earlier chapters would have to rely upon what the Valar told the Elves. And similarly, when we get onto the confrontation between melkor/Morgoth and Ungoliant, there can’t plausibly have been any witnesses to interview: we would have to be back to reconstruction, and perhaps that explains a shift back to less immediate language? Or not - what do you think?
2) Fëanor’s “foresight” - do we think Fëanor might really have been motivated (consciously or unconsciously) to make a sort of Light-of-the Trees emergency backup, or is Yavanna merely saying that what started out as a pure art project now has a practical use? Or is it a way of flattering him, to increase the chances of him handing over the family jewels. Or does Yavanna not understand the working's of the artificer's mind (despite being married to one)?
3) Interesting that it is Aule who intervenes to remind them all what the Silmarils mean to Fëanor. Is Aule thinking back to the unfortunate incident about the dwarves? Many of the Valar have been great creators of things - you’d think that many of them would understand. Perhaps especially Yavanna, who needs Fëanor’s lesser creation to save her greater one.
4) Apart from this (possibly accidental) role as a potential tree medicine, I don’t believe the Silmarils have a practical purpose: it is pure art stirring up these dark passions. Is that deliberate on Tolkien’s part, do you think? What I mean is that wanting the Silmarils is not bound up with wanting them for something, because the don’t do anything (burn your hand and then make a most uncomfortable crown, seems to be about it). And so the passions they stir up - pride, envy, covetousness, greed, suspicion could be said to be in a pure form. Is there an interesting contrast with passions stirred up by dangerous magical goodies in the Lord of the Rings - the Ring, palantirs? People want those, or to deny them to others at least in part for what they can do. Has Feanor created art so perfect that it drives people mad? I’m a bit reminded of Thorin’s obsession with the Arkenstone once he has recovered it in the Hobbit - is that a parallel worth pursuing?
5) “Not the first to be slain” says Mandos, in response to Fëanor’s melodramatic claim that surrendering the Silmarils will be the death of him. (I do find Mandos irritating!) Presumably Mandos is already aware that Finwe has been murdered. But we readers don't know that yet- what is Tolkien’s purpose in throwing us this puzzle at this point? Are we supposed to consider some other interpretation? For example, if Fëanor did give the Silmarils up and die of a broken heart, would that not be like the fate of his mother Miriel? Are we as readers intended to think of that reference first, then connect it to Finwes death later? Are we to infer this is part of Fëanor’s reluctance to part with the Silmarils? Or is there another intent?
6) Would the Valar have compelled Fëanor to give up his stones? Would they have been right to do so? Perhaps related to this - there is a recurring theme about the uniqueness and non-reproducibility of someone’s greatest achievement. Yavanna cannot remake the trees; Fëanor cannot remake the Silmarils; and later, the elves of the Teleri will not give up their beautiful ships to carry the Noldor away (Fëanor and his followers take them by force). There is an irony (at least) that Fëanor would not willingly hand over the Silmarils, but feels it’s OK to mug the Teleri.
7) Fëanor’s outburst about being summoned by Manwe: is he actually accusing the Valar of being part of a conspiracy to steal the Silmarils? Or is he feeling guilty that he might have been able to save his father? Has that concern suddenly (perhaps temporarily) triumphed over his “greedy love” for his possessions? Or does he wish to have been at Formenos only to have been able to guard his treasures?
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
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Finwe
Menegroth
Apr 16 2013, 2:50pm
Post #2 of 72
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1) I note how direct and immediate the writing has become: we seem to be right in there in the meeting with them, rather than the style of earlier chapters, which report distant events much less directly. Do you feel there is a deliberate progression here for stylistic effect through the book? If so, does it work for you? Or does it depend on the various versions and edits from which each chapter was assembled (or the extent to which Tolkien had imagined the scene visually)? Or are we reflecting what information might have been available to the imagined in-world writer/editor of the Silmarillion? It is definitely a deliberate shift in styles intended to signify the importance of the content of the chapter. This is done several times throughout the Silmarillion; shifting from a bird's eye point of view to a seat squarely in the middle of the action. In my esitmation, this is the quintessential chapter in the Sil, so it's not surprising we get so much detail, similar to Beren and Luthien & Turin's story.
That last point probably requires a bit of explanation - In earlier discussions we touched upon Tolkien not using the device he used in the Hobbit and LOTR - we don’t have Bilbo, Frodo and Sam leaving a text which Tolkien has discovered somehow and edited for the modern reader. it also seems that Tolkien considered such a device. But that it was abandoned when the Sil was prepared for publication. Such a story-outside-the-story can still be readily be imagined if you like (the Silmarillion could be a collection of histories you might find in Elrond’s library maybe, or in the Royal Library of Gondor after Aragorn becomes King. Following this thought, it would be plausible that the writer had access to eye-witnesses of this scene, or earlier eye-witness accounts. By contrast , earlier chapters would have to rely upon what the Valar told the Elves. And similarly, when we get onto the confrontation between melkor/Morgoth and Ungoliant, there can’t plausibly have been any witnesses to interview: we would have to be back to reconstruction, and perhaps that explains a shift back to less immediate language? Or not - what do you think? I've always been under the impression that the Sil was an Elvish history. Events that the Elves couldn't have possibly have known about or witnessed, such as the Ainulindale or Valaquenta, they learned in Valinor. I know there was an earlier concept of Aelfwine (sorry, don't know how to make all those fancy characters) of England unintentionally finding the Straight Road, sailing to the Undying Lands, and being told these stories by an elf. I have read so many different versions that I can never remember anymore what Tolkien intended to stand up. Obviously, Christopher didn't include this framework in the published Silmarillion. I think you're dead on about the Melkor/Ungoliant scene and how it shifts back to a bird's eye view. I have previously heard the theory that Manwe's eagles are actually the ones who bring the info about their confrontation back to Manwe, hence it becomes known to the Elves of Aman.
2) Fëanor’s “foresight” - do we think Fëanor might really have been motivated (consciously or unconsciously) to make a sort of Light-of-the Trees emergency backup, or is Yavanna merely saying that what started out as a pure art project now has a practical use? Or is it a way of flattering him, to increase the chances of him handing over the family jewels. Or does Yavanna not understand the working's of the artificer's mind (despite being married to one)? I've always viewed Yavanna's foresight comment as kicking herself for not thinking herself to create a backup generator, so to speak, for the Trees. I do not sense that Yavanna is the type to play mind games, so I don't see it as an attempt to butter up Feanor. I do not believe Feanor had any inclination to trap the light for the preservation of the Trees. It was strictly a matter of creating something so grand to boost his ego.
3) Interesting that it is Aule who intervenes to remind them all what the Silmarils mean to Fëanor. Is Aule thinking back to the unfortunate incident about the dwarves? Many of the Valar have been great creators of things - you’d think that many of them would understand. Perhaps especially Yavanna, who needs Fëanor’s lesser creation to save her greater one. I agree with your thoughts here. I think this is a matter of Tolkien purposely giving the dialogue to Aule to reinforce his role as a great craftsman of the Valar. While the other Valar should understand, none understand as clearly as the great Aule. It also, once again, shows the "human" tendencies the Valar possess. Just because one knows or understands doesn't mean that knowledge and understand can get pushed to the background during times of crisis.
4) Apart from this (possibly accidental) role as a potential tree medicine, I don’t believe the Silmarils have a practical purpose: it is pure art stirring up these dark passions. Is that deliberate on Tolkien’s part, do you think? What I mean is that wanting the Silmarils is not bound up with wanting them for something, because the don’t do anything (burn your hand and then make a most uncomfortable crown, seems to be about it). And so the passions they stir up - pride, envy, covetousness, greed, suspicion could be said to be in a pure form. Is there an interesting contrast with passions stirred up by dangerous magical goodies in the Lord of the Rings - the Ring, palantirs? People want those, or to deny them to others at least in part for what they can do. Has Feanor created art so perfect that it drives people mad? I’m a bit reminded of Thorin’s obsession with the Arkenstone once he has recovered it in the Hobbit - is that a parallel worth pursuing? I've said this many times in these book discussions, but Feanor's lust for the Silmarils reinforces the central theme of the Silmarillion: "Love not too greatly the work of thine own hands." The silmarils end up having practical purposes, but these are unintended purposes (i.e. Trees generator, flashlight). Feanor, his sons, Morgoth, Ungoliant, etc. want them purely for their beauty. I do like the Arkenstone parallel.
5) “Not the first to be slain” says Mandos, in response to Fëanor’s melodramatic claim that surrendering the Silmarils will be the death of him. (I do find Mandos irritating!) Presumably Mandos is already aware that Finwe has been murdered. But we readers don't know that yet- what is Tolkien’s purpose in throwing us this puzzle at this point? Are we supposed to consider some other interpretation? For example, if Fëanor did give the Silmarils up and die of a broken heart, would that not be like the fate of his mother Miriel? Are we as readers intended to think of that reference first, then connect it to Finwes death later? Are we to infer this is part of Fëanor’s reluctance to part with the Silmarils? Or is there another intent? I'm glad you brought up Miriel because that's exactly who I thought he was referring to since Feanor is talking about losing his will to live and dying if he lose the silmarils. That said, he's definitely referring to Finwe. It's simply a case of an author playing tricks with the reader, similar to the Mouth of Sauron presenting Frodo's tokens to Gandalf in LOTR. Personally, I don't mind thinks like this as long as they're not overused, as it provides a nice little "aha!" moment the second time through. It also gives Mandos an opportunity to show off his skills.
6) Would the Valar have compelled Fëanor to give up his stones? Would they have been right to do so? Perhaps related to this - there is a recurring theme about the uniqueness and non-reproducibility of someone’s greatest achievement. Yavanna cannot remake the trees; Fëanor cannot remake the Silmarils; and later, the elves of the Teleri will not give up their beautiful ships to carry the Noldor away (Fëanor and his followers take them by force). There is an irony (at least) that Fëanor would not willingly hand over the Silmarils, but feels it’s OK to mug the Teleri. I do not believe the Valar would have convinced or forcibly taken the silmarils from Feanor, nor would they have been right to do so. That would have set a horrible precedent. Yes, the light of the silmarils came from the work of Yavanna, but pretty much the whole or Arda was the work of the Valar, so where does their seizure stop? Does Orome show up at the Battle of the Five Armies and claim the Arkenstone, as it came from a mountain that the Valar presumably raised? Also, the light of the Trees was a spectacular achievement, but it's hardly the first by the Valar. They're basically Lamps 2.0. And we will see in future chapters that they don't need the Trees to light the world anyway. Feanor's disregard for the Teleri is yet another example of his selfishness. Contrast it to another subcreator we've already discussed, Aule. When Feanor is faced with the decision to sacrifice his greatest creations, Aule shows compassion toward his difficult decison. When the Teleri are faced with the exact situation as Feanor, he could care less about their loss. He's only concerned with his personal gain.
7) Fëanor’s outburst about being summoned by Manwe: is he actually accusing the Valar of being part of a conspiracy to steal the Silmarils? Or is he feeling guilty that he might have been able to save his father? Has that concern suddenly (perhaps temporarily) triumphed over his “greedy love” for his possessions? Or does he wish to have been at Formenos only to have been able to guard his treasures? I don't think Feanor considers the Valar to be active conspirators in the loss of the silmarils, but he definitely does view them as no different than Melkor. He makes several references to them all being "of the same order" throughout the book. Up until now, he viewed all the Ainur as a nuisance. Now, he probably views them all as his enemies. Melkor for obvious reasons, the rest of the Valar as overlords who have led him and his family to loss and death. His ego has grown so large that he stupidly believes he could have prevented his father's death and loss of his treasure had he been there. I think he mourns the loss of each equally, although much more is made of the loss of the silmarils because they are yet recoverable.
As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 17 2013, 1:00am
Post #3 of 72
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Thanks for another witty and incisive post, no Wiz, and good idea on how to break it up.
1) I note how direct and immediate the writing has become: we seem to be right in there in the meeting with them, rather than the style of earlier chapters, which report distant events much less directly. Do you feel there is a deliberate progression here for stylistic effect through the book? If so, does it work for you? Or does it depend on the various versions and edits from which each chapter was assembled (or the extent to which Tolkien had imagined the scene visually)? Or are we reflecting what information might have been available to the imagined in-world writer/editor of the Silmarillion?
Yes, this is where the reader gets more involved in what happens, and I enjoy it. I feel like I'm sitting there in their Circle of Doom as they're talking and brooding, instead of watching them through a telescope or reading through annals. Even in the Aule and Yavanna chapter, I didn't feel like I was a potential participant in all the dialogue like I do here. Maybe it's because of the Elves being present.
Much of The Silmarillion does seem like it was written by an Elvish scribe, at least the Quenta part. I really have trouble seeing how the Ainulindale was communicated by an Ainu to an Elf. And generally, I'm not very fond of pretending to read what someone else has written about what happened. It almost seems too cute, an author pretending that they're not really the author. But it works in other ways: I like how Tolkien suggests things happen without anyone really knowing, such as the fates of both Shelob and Ungoliant. He doesn't just say "No one knows what happened to her." He gives you some options. And that's maddening in its own way, because I want all my questions answered, but I think it enriches the tale that you don't get everything you want, just hints (if it's done sparingly--what if in LOTR we had to stomach: "and whether Gollum fell into the Crack of Doom and destroyed Sauron, or whether all was lost in the war and Sauron triumphed, no tale tells." That's worse than putting up with Mandos!) Further, I really enjoy the final scene between Ungoliant and Melkor, and you're right, there's no plausible way an Elf would know about it. The story gets distorted if everything has to be forced into a narrow narrative mold.
2) Fëanor’s “foresight” - do we think Fëanor might really have been motivated (consciously or unconsciously) to make a sort of Light-of-the Trees emergency backup, or is Yavanna merely saying that what started out as a pure art project now has a practical use? Or is it a way of flattering him, to increase the chances of him handing over the family jewels. Or does Yavanna not understand the working's of the artificer's mind (despite being married to one)?
I like Finwe's comment about Yavanna ruing her own lack of foresight--I'd never thought of that, but it rings true. I think she's giving Feanor a compliment, but not in a manipulative way, more of a way of cheering everyone up. She goes on to say what strikes me as a beautiful line: "and then our hurt should be healed, and the malice of Melkor confounded." She's speaking of a profound and radical hope that this ultimate act of sabotage that robbed the world of beauty and light can be reversed. How often is it possible to undo evil acts? What if we could undo the Holocaust or September 11 or school shootings? Tolkien probably intended her dialogue to be restricted purely to the Trees and Silmarils, but every time I read it, it takes on a larger significance. For that reason, I don't think she had an ulterior motive. She was grasping at optimism in the midst of tragedy.
But otherwise, I think she and Aule never really understand each other even though they're both creative types, and I think that shows up here. My question would be to turn it around on her: would she kill her Two Trees for some greater good, knowing that she couldn't recreate them? Somehow, I don't think so, or not without great internal struggle and lots of pronouncements from Mandos that to not kill the Trees would lead to very awful things. That's my question for everyone: could Yavanna do what she's asking Feanor to do? I'm not suggesting she's a hypocrite, I just think she hasn't thought it all through, and that's what Aule is gently getting at. "Honey, it's like asking you to turn your trees into firewood. This is gonna hurt him."
As for the actuality of Feanor's foresight, I don't think he had any conscious premonitions, but I like how it's hinted at in the previous chapter. Then my next question would be was it random foresight, which is possible, or a prompting from Eru Olorin-style ("they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts"). If it could be traced back to Eru, he must have felt pretty bitter at the outcome of this backup plan for the Trees, considering all the havoc that resulted from the Silmarils.
3) Interesting that it is Aule who intervenes to remind them all what the Silmarils mean to Fëanor. Is Aule thinking back to the unfortunate incident about the dwarves? Many of the Valar have been great creators of things - you’d think that many of them would understand. Perhaps especially Yavanna, who needs Fëanor’s lesser creation to save her greater one.
As Finwe said, I think this is a good illustration that the Valar are not a pack of gods or angels that all think alike and read each other's minds.
4) Apart from this (possibly accidental) role as a potential tree medicine, I don’t believe the Silmarils have a practical purpose: it is pure art stirring up these dark passions.
It's funny you say this, because that never dawned on me before. They're these great holy jewels of sublime beauty that are tied up with the elements and fate of the world, but really, what are they good for except as glow-in-the-dark paperweights? And to compare with LOTR, the Ring was certainly useful and capable of all kinds of things--worth fighting over. Is this book only about egos and lust for expensive things that you want to have to make sure others don't have them? That is what motivates Melkor and Feanor, and somehow they sucked everyone else in. What if the Valar and Noldor said, "Oh, they're just pretty jewelry. Get over it, Feanor," and he had to go to Beleriand on his own mad mission? And The Hobbit mostly fit that attitude: Thorin obsessed over the Arkenstone, but the others didn't. It seemed his pet craving that others accommodated but didn't identify with. Bard and Thranduil certainly didn't start fighting over it or run away and hide it. All of that is a "yes" to your great question Has Feanor created art so perfect that it drives people mad?
Back to their practical purpose: what exactly would be the process for using the Silmarils to recharge the Trees? Do you split them open or shatter them? How many did Yavanna need--1 and 1/2 per Tree? Would one work for both? What was Feanor's real choice if he only had to destroy one or two of them?
5) Mandos--oh, don't get me started on him! But with Finwe, I thought at first that he was just reminding Feanor (in a tactless way) that his mother had died first of a broken heart, and not to self-obsess (which was otherwise good advice). I think the ambiguity is deliberate so that later we see that he was really talking about Feanor's other dead parent. Given the fates of his parents in The Blessed Realm, you can see why Feanor wasn't as impressed with it as others.
6) Would the Valar have compelled Fëanor to give up his stones? Would they have been right to do so? Perhaps related to this - there is a recurring theme about the uniqueness and non-reproducibility of someone’s greatest achievement. Yavanna cannot remake the trees; Fëanor cannot remake the Silmarils; and later, the elves of the Teleri will not give up their beautiful ships to carry the Noldor away (Fëanor and his followers take them by force). There is an irony (at least) that Fëanor would not willingly hand over the Silmarils, but feels it’s OK to mug the Teleri.
I don't think they would have compelled him to give up the Silmarils since they accept his decision without protest or even an attempt at persuasion. Now your next question is worthy of great debate: would they be right to? Tough call. I think I would answer yes or no depending on the day of the week, because I really don't know. I mostly think no, but it was for the greater good, and his theatrics aside, it wouldn't "hurt" him. Roughly analogous to: "If the government plowed a road through your house so it could get food to starving people, and the route through your house was the only possible way to go, would it be right to do so?" I think it depends on how essential the greater good is. As it turns out, they found light by other means, so lacking that essential need, I guess I'd say they'd be wrong. But ask me again tomorrow.
Certainly it is a domino effect of the loss/destruction of unreproducible wonders: Trees, Silmarils, ships. And yes, it's odd that Feanor doesn't feel the slightest conflict over not only stealing, but even burning these ships that were like Silmarils to the Teleri. Which is why I would not want to meet him in person because I'd only say rude things to him.
7) Fëanor’s outburst about being summoned by Manwe: is he actually accusing the Valar of being part of a conspiracy to steal the Silmarils?
I'm clearly no fan of Feanor's, but I'll let him off the hook on this one. He was crazy with grief and said crazy things. People do that.
Thanks again for an excellent chapter analysis.
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Maciliel
Doriath
Apr 17 2013, 2:15am
Post #4 of 72
(1657 views)
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shall reply in detail later...
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... as i'm in the middle of re-reading the chapter....
but...
... did want to pass along a very strong and persistent thought i had earlier today....
so... feanor is described (don't have the quote handy; perhaps someone can supply) as being the most gifted and mightiest of the noldor (or eldar; i'm not remembering how far-reaching the quote was).
but feanor is all about creating... things. inventing... things.
it's author's perogative, of course, but why does "most gifted" mean someone who makes..."things"?
if we can imagine that the fea of feanor was blessed by aule and through that and the artistic gifts miriel gave him he came into the world with these talents (i'm speaking poetically here; i'm not saying that aule actually blessed his birth)... if we can imagine this.... would it not have been better if he had been blessed by nienna also? or instead?
i find it ironic in a book that's filled with the cautionary tale of loving the work of one's own hands too much, that "most gifted" means talent in this particular, narrow scope.
what really makes us grow, what is far more valuable than beautiful gems (even holy gems), inventive writing systems, superior armor are things like compassion and kindness. empathy and pity (which is a major theme of lotr).
so why not call the "greatest" eldar someone who evinced the gifts that nienna embodied? we always put artists on pedestals, especially if they behave badly. the healers and the helpers and the ones who can enlighten us with compassion and raise us to higher levels of being -- these are the ones who should be praised above artists (certainly above selfish, self-destructive, toxic artists, at least).
the blossoming of the sun and moon were made possible by not just yavanna, but nienna. it was nienna who taught olorin so much, that he then used to kindle hope and strength in others.
think of your darkest hours, when you doubted, when you suffered, when your hope and strength stuttered. think upon someone who helped you through that time, through a kind deed, through listening, through just holding you while you sobbed uncontrollably. these are nienna's gifts, so often overlooked.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 17 2013, 2:54am
Post #5 of 72
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"Greatest" has many definitions, I think
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I recall a fierce argument we had in school with a teacher who hated Hitler but insisted that he was a "great" leader because he was pretty effective. She didn't defend any of his actions and quite abhorred him, but she made the objective argument that by accomplishing a lot, he was great. I don't want to revisit that argument because everything about Hitler is so awful, but these many years later, I can see what she meant. A serial killer could run a mile in 20 seconds and be a great runner while still being an awful human being. So, greatness can just measure a person against what is normally possible, and the higher up the scale you can go, the greater you are--in that context.
I partially think that that is how Feanor is great. He's got more gifts than most people do and even rivals the Valar and Aule, because he made the Silmarils, and they didn't/couldn't. He's high on the scale of creating great beauty, but as you point out, he's not a great person. Though I find him loathsome, and Tolkien made Feanor's evil acts quite unambiguous and even had Mandos succinctly call him evil, I still have a sense that Tolkien admired him. I can never point to just what makes me think that, but when I reread The Sil, I still get the feeling that JRR thought Feanor was pretty cool. I think he saw Feanor as a flawed personality with great skill, whereas I think he's much worse than flawed.
On to heroism. Tolkien was constrained by convention in that heroes in fantasy are supposed to be great in some way or many ways. Feanor was a pivotal character, and he led the rebellion of the Noldor. He could only do that by being great and persuasive, not just a skilled craftsmen, because how often do artists get chosen as rulers? So he compared Feanor to his brothers and said he "was mightiest of skill of word and of hand," throwing in that "word" part to explain why Feanor could be so persuasive as an orator in getting the Noldor to follow him. And they do seem to be in awe of him. JRR never uses the word, but I think Feanor clearly had charisma, an undefinable ability to attract people to him which "great" people often possess.
But as you point out, Feanor clearly missed the boat on being great with people in terms of treating them well and thinking about their welfare. One of the most damning things I think about Feanor is this passage:
[he] knew with the foreknowledge of death that no power of the Noldor would ever overcome [Thangorodrim]...but he laid it upon his sons to hold to their oath, and avenge their father. That's a textbook example of a narcissist who uses other people like tools for their own ends. He does even care that he's dooming his sons to futility and death in pursuit of their oath!! He wants to use them for revenge on Morgoth. Fie upon him. Yet Tolkien just a few lines later gives him praise:
Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous woe. This is the same author who invented Nienna??? Because I can't think of any mythology with a Nienna in it. The closest I can come is the Greek Hestia, the humble goddess of the hearth whose origins were quite great, but still, she was humble, not someone who pitied the sorrows of the world and grew in wisdom as a result, and influenced others to do so. And what I also find significant is that Nienna has no counterpart. Not that she necessarily needed one, but there is often a god of war and a god of peace as counterparts, or even Aule and Yavanna as married counterparts of industry vs nature. There's no Vala of joy, and no path to wisdom through joy in Arda, only through sorrow.
I won't blame Tolkien for his ambivalence, because we all have that, but it seems to me that he undermines his message via Nienna that compassion and empathy are the highest virtues in life by depicting Feanor as great. But aside from what Tolkien wrote, I think you made a great and non-ambivalent point that generals winning wars and artists making pretty things probably get trumped in the Great Music by people showing compassion. And certainly Gandalf and Frodo are exemplars of that. But does he EVER use the word "great" with Frodo?
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Finwe
Menegroth
Apr 17 2013, 3:05am
Post #6 of 72
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Gifted can describe many things
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I see what you're saying. I think that there are many, many types of gifts one may possess. Feanor seemed to possess many himself, hence the title. He not only was a great craftsman, he also invented an alphabet, improved Quenya, was one of the greatest orators in history, just to name a few off the top of my head. Plus Tolkien loved to toss around the "greatest" title as often as possible in this book.
As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.
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Finwe
Menegroth
Apr 17 2013, 3:09am
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Just to provide another example
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Michael Jordan is the undisputed greatest basketball player of all-time, however was undeniably a gigantic a-hole. And I say this as a huge Bulls fan. Often times the same attributes that make one successful can also make them less than great human beings. That's what makes the great ones in both senses so special.
As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 17 2013, 8:15pm
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Why does Manwe not speak? It seems odd that he doesn't realise that the attack on the Trees is a grave challenge to his leadership. You'd expect his to speak of the need for calm and unity, and of the steps to build new lights and to bring Melkor to justice. He should see the need to rally the troops and settle things down.
I'll have more to say about his handling of the revolt of the Noldor when we get there, but I feel it's Manwe's failure to provide leadership at this point which allows the situation to slip away from him.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
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Finwe
Menegroth
Apr 17 2013, 8:45pm
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Manwe's place as leader is secure amongst the Vanyar and Valar. The Teleri seem indifferent to these events. His only problem is Feanor and the Noldor. I don't want to step on your toes for any future posts you have planned this week, so I won't say too much, but I think Manwe had a purpose in mind with his silence. He just made one little miscalculation, which I will share when the time comes.
As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 17 2013, 9:12pm
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Sounds intriguing! Happy to hold fire until the planned third thread on this though - where the Valar make a couple of attempts to get the Noldor to turn back, and it seems right to ask whether they could have handled it better.
You're right - a human leader would want to reassure and reinforce his/her authority. But one reason would be vulnerability to a vote of no confidence, a coup, a run on the stock market etc. Manwe has none of those concerns. Maybe it results in fatal complacency. Or maybe he does have a plan which miscarries: it will be interesting to debate.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
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Brethil
Gondolin
Apr 17 2013, 9:23pm
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Of the Flight of the Noldor - great lead-in NoWiz!!!!
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“The Light of the Trees has passed away, and lives now only in the Silmarils of Fëanor. Foresighted was he!”
Fëanor is asked to agree to letting Yavanna use the Silmarils, but he does not answer. Aule sympathetically asks that Fëanor be given time to answer (“We ask a greater thing than thou knowest”). Fëanor will not give up the Silmarils, saying that, like Yavanna, there are some things that he can accomplish only once - “if I must break them, I shall break my heart, and I shall be slain; first of all the Eldar in Aman”. Mandos cryptically answers “Not the first”.
Fëanor is now filled with the idea that the Valar will take the Silmarils by force. But there is no opportunity to discover whether they actually intend this - messengers arrive with the news that Melkor has broken into the stronghold of Formenos, slain Finwe and stolen the Silmarils. Fëanor curses Melkor, but also curses Manwe for summoning him - “thinking in the madness of his rage and grief that had he been at Formenos his strength would have availed more than to be slain also, as Melkor had purposed”. Fëanor then runs off into the night.
Quite a scene! Some potential starter points for discussion:
1) I note how direct and immediate the writing has become: we seem to be right in there in the meeting with them, rather than the style of earlier chapters, which report distant events much less directly. Do you feel there is a deliberate progression here for stylistic effect through the book? If so, does it work for you? Or does it depend on the various versions and edits from which each chapter was assembled (or the extent to which Tolkien had imagined the scene visually)? Or are we reflecting what information might have been available to the imagined in-world writer/editor of the Silmarillion? I like the immediacy of the language, and I wonder if JRRT chose this approach to highlight the interpersonal importance of what happens here, between Feanor and the Valar, because of the importance of what will come of the meeting. It reminds me of that 'overheard' conversation between Aule and Yavanna. We get a more 'personal' picture here instead of a more distant and single-perspective narrative. So I think it may be deliberate.
And similarly, when we get onto the confrontation between melkor/Morgoth and Ungoliant, there can’t plausibly have been any witnesses to interview: we would have to be back to reconstruction, and perhaps that explains a shift back to less immediate language? Or not - what do you think? Yes, I think that is the case. It's more like a 'retelling' than the scene with Feanor and the Valar.
2) Fëanor’s “foresight” - do we think Fëanor might really have been motivated (consciously or unconsciously) to make a sort of Light-of-the Trees emergency backup, or is Yavanna merely saying that what started out as a pure art project now has a practical use? Or is it a way of flattering him, to increase the chances of him handing over the family jewels. Or does Yavanna not understand the working's of the artificer's mind (despite being married to one)? I am not sure that she does fully understand the mind of a creator of inanimate objects - different than the olvar and kelvar, who breathe and reproduce, and are not singular. So I don't think it is flattery, I think it is a genuine appeal, but she can't fathom, like Aule can, that once the Thing is gone, it is gone forever; plus with her love of Life, I think that she sees that as paramount and secondary to Things.
3) Interesting that it is Aule who intervenes to remind them all what the Silmarils mean to Fëanor. Is Aule thinking back to the unfortunate incident about the dwarves? Many of the Valar have been great creators of things - you’d think that many of them would understand. Perhaps especially Yavanna, who needs Fëanor’s lesser creation to save her greater one. I think it comes back to what I wrote above - her Creations are different than Feanor's. And yes I do think Aule has learned, through the potential loss of the Dwarves who he created, how the destruction would feel. We see that in his weeping upon raising the hammer to destroy them.
4) Apart from this (possibly accidental) role as a potential tree medicine, I don’t believe the Silmarils have a practical purpose: it is pure art stirring up these dark passions. Is that deliberate on Tolkien’s part, do you think? What I mean is that wanting the Silmarils is not bound up with wanting them for something, because the don’t do anything (burn your hand and then make a most uncomfortable crown, seems to be about it). And so the passions they stir up - pride, envy, covetousness, greed, suspicion could be said to be in a pure form. Is there an interesting contrast with passions stirred up by dangerous magical goodies in the Lord of the Rings - the Ring, palantirs? People want those, or to deny them to others at least in part for what they can do. Has Feanor created art so perfect that it drives people mad? I’m a bit reminded of Thorin’s obsession with the Arkenstone once he has recovered it in the Hobbit - is that a parallel worth pursuing? Pure form of covetousness equal to the pure form of light that the Silmarils housed? All light after that - the Sun and Moon - represent the world after it had been sullied by Morgoth. Tolkien says that the Jewels represented the 'power of sub-creation' of the Elves. Ultimately their creation and existence is the root cause of the Fall of the Elves. I think having created such a perfect race of beings, beautiful, creative and immortal, their fall (and there HAD to be a Fall) must by nature revolve around something of unworldly beauty and purity, because anything lesser would not sway them to covetousness, kinslaying and Oaths. So I think they key is that Feanor created something, maybe the only thing, that could drive Elves to the deeds that came later on. That's why in an earlier thread (I think Of the Silmarils) I pondered whether, from the perspective of keeping the plan of Eru and the world and the Elves Pure, if the Silmarils ever should have been created at all; or if attempting to transmute ownerless beauty and purity into plebian "things" was wrong.
5) “Not the first to be slain” says Mandos, in response to Fëanor’s melodramatic claim that surrendering the Silmarils will be the death of him. (I do find Mandos irritating!) Presumably Mandos is already aware that Finwe has been murdered. But we readers don't know that yet- what is Tolkien’s purpose in throwing us this puzzle at this point? Are we supposed to consider some other interpretation? For example, if Fëanor did give the Silmarils up and die of a broken heart, would that not be like the fate of his mother Miriel? Are we as readers intended to think of that reference first, then connect it to Finwes death later? Are we to infer this is part of Fëanor’s reluctance to part with the Silmarils? Or is there another intent? Is it simply a comment by Mandos that he knows on this day something perhaps more precious to Feanor has already been lost? Maybe there is a parallel to Miriel here, which then oddly also describes the fate of Finwe. So maybe it is a cryptic comment that will evolve as more of the story is read, as it can apply to both parents in this blighted family.
6) Would the Valar have compelled Fëanor to give up his stones? Would they have been right to do so? Perhaps related to this - there is a recurring theme about the uniqueness and non-reproducibility of someone’s greatest achievement. Yavanna cannot remake the trees; Fëanor cannot remake the Silmarils; and later, the elves of the Teleri will not give up their beautiful ships to carry the Noldor away (Fëanor and his followers take them by force). There is an irony (at least) that Fëanor would not willingly hand over the Silmarils, but feels it’s OK to mug the Teleri. If they taken direct action, gone against his Free Will and had compelled him, what would have happened? Would he have died then and there of grief; somehow I don't think so because he would not be sad, he would be angry. Would he have destroyed the Trees a second time? Not sure if I see that either. Would he have spent time near the Trees, in their Light...hmm. That's a possibility. Somehow I think that he might have tried again to re-create the Jewels, but I think it would have failed. Then, perhaps, I think he might have given up; but then there would be no Fall. So maybe what JRRT is saying here is that choice and Free Will is at the heart of every fall from grace. I think Feanor sees taking the Teleri's ships as secondary to his Creations; at this point I think he sees everything secondary to his creations, which ties up with JRRT's idea that politicizing the world and reducing everyone and everything else to their minimal, utilitarian meaning is a huge act of rebellion against Good. The Teleri, their lives and their ships mean only to Feanor in that moment what he needs them to be; all their merits and life and kinship mean nothing because Feanor is too focused on getting his way.
7) Fëanor’s outburst about being summoned by Manwe: is he actually accusing the Valar of being part of a conspiracy to steal the Silmarils? Or is he feeling guilty that he might have been able to save his father? Has that concern suddenly (perhaps temporarily) triumphed over his “greedy love” for his possessions? Or does he wish to have been at Formenos only to have been able to guard his treasures? I think it is the overflow of emotion here, and I think (too late perhaps) he does love something more than the Jewels, in that moment, for we read that he valued his father was dearer to him than the peerless works of his hands. So that guilt and rage I think gets channeled at the Valar; I think on the strength of that emotion though his anger congeals and the Valar are an easy target as he is confident that, unlike Melkor, the Valar will not strike at him. Awesome job NoWiz, I love what you did with the discussion points here. Thanks for leading us out!
Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 17 2013, 9:42pm
Post #12 of 72
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I always think that about Jordan
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Admire his athletic prowess, but would never want to have a beer with him. Some celebrities I only admire from afar.
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Brethil
Gondolin
Apr 17 2013, 9:54pm
Post #14 of 72
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A thought on Nienna and Melkor as counterparts...
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This is the same author who invented Nienna??? Because I can't think of any mythology with a Nienna in it. The closest I can come is the Greek Hestia, the humble goddess of the hearth whose origins were quite great, but still, she was humble, not someone who pitied the sorrows of the world and grew in wisdom as a result, and influenced others to do so. And what I also find significant is that Nienna has no counterpart. Not that she necessarily needed one, but there is often a god of war and a god of peace as counterparts, or even Aule and Yavanna as married counterparts of industry vs nature. There's no Vala of joy, and no path to wisdom through joy in Arda, only through sorrow.
What do you think of the idea of Melkor as her opposite? Healing vs Marring. And just a thought, which I didn't quite 'put together' with the Silmarils until recently: the Trees couldn't exist without Melkor, because they are grown with Nienna's tears. She cries over the deeds of Melkor, and how he has hurt Arda. And of course without the Trees we have no Jewels...so those two are sort of bound together, aren't they?
Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 17 2013, 9:57pm
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Which sounds disturbingly like a new TV comedy.
Tolkien seems to set up that scene very carefully. Everyone is deep in anguish, there's a ray of hope that Feanor can reverse it all, and he chooses not to. The Valar don't force him to do anything, so they keep the moral high ground, and he begins his long fall, dragging the other Noldor with him.
He didn't yet know about his father's death; that information is withheld from the scene so it can't be used as an excuse for his decision. He has no threats, no one criticizes him, and Aule even showed some sympathy. There's a whole lot of buildup to his big fall. I almost want to reach into the book and shake him by the collar and say, "Don't you realize where all this is going?!", because he really seems to have no clue.
And he never looks back or regrets anything. Shouldn't he have a Gollum moment of repentance? Feanor's Fall seems as absolute and sealed as Adam's.
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Brethil
Gondolin
Apr 17 2013, 10:12pm
Post #16 of 72
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Which sounds disturbingly like a new TV comedy.
Tolkien seems to set up that scene very carefully. Everyone is deep in anguish, there's a ray of hope that Feanor can reverse it all, and he chooses not to. The Valar don't force him to do anything, so they keep the moral high ground, and he begins his long fall, dragging the other Noldor with him.
He didn't yet know about his father's death; that information is withheld from the scene so it can't be used as an excuse for his decision. He has no threats, no one criticizes him, and Aule even showed some sympathy. There's a whole lot of buildup to his big fall. I almost want to reach into the book and shake him by the collar and say, "Don't you realize where all this is going?!", because he really seems to have no clue.
And he never looks back or regrets anything. Shouldn't he have a Gollum moment of repentance? Feanor's Fall seems as absolute and sealed as Adam's.
It's true, I never thought of it that way, but everything in that scene is so precise. I wonder if that explains what NoWiz enquired about in the OP: the reason for the immediacy of the narrative and the wealth of detail. Because you are right CG, it's like Someone is giving Feanor plenty of rope to hang himself with! And the Valar lack the foresight to see the whole picture, the potential for destruction - so they DO let him choose. Free Will isn't always pretty is it? And if they HSAD the foresight - I don't think the Fall would have happened. Of course Eru Illuvatar purposely did not give them that sight; do despite the events to come, ultimately he desires the Song to play out with all its possibilities and not remain flat.
I think it feels 'right' that he has no clue at this point though - because he is already so distant from the concerns of others, even his family, that it's a place he has already gotten to prior to the request of Yavanna. It would seem odd if he was 'suddenly' so uncaring; JRRT has built up (or down?) Feanor in such small, deliberate steps to reach the point where he is at.
Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.
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Finwe
Menegroth
Apr 17 2013, 11:31pm
Post #17 of 72
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I'm sure you'll all be thinking what a crackpot I am after hearing my theory. 
As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.
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Finwe
Menegroth
Apr 17 2013, 11:33pm
Post #18 of 72
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I typically only follow media members on Twitter, but made a few exceptions for athletes and celebs. Man was that a buzzkill in some cases.
As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.
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Finwe
Menegroth
Apr 18 2013, 12:57am
Post #19 of 72
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Anytime Tolkien zooms in from the bird's eye view narrative style that makes up the majority of the Silmarillion, you can be sure it is most definitely deliberate and meaningful. This is Feanor's chapter all the way. The chapters in the Sil can seem broken and disjointed at times, but upon closer examination, all the previous chapters serve as buildup to this one. And all subsequent chapters are details of what happens as a result of this one.
As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 18 2013, 1:16am
Post #20 of 72
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So what you're saying is, you really like bad boys like Melkor
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And probably because he gave you a dozen ponies for Valentine's, :)
But seriously, good points. Though I'm away from home a few days and don't have my book (should just buy an e-version, I know). Was Nienna involved in the creation of the Trees? She definitely added her tears to Yavanna's prayers to eke out the Sun and Moon, but I don't recall her being part of the original Trees' birth. But that would still give credit to Melkor for indirectly leading to the Sun and Moon, which finally brought light to the rest of Arda, which was long overdue in my opinion. So now I sound like I'm giving him credit too.
Anyway, you're right about her being a counterpart to Melkor--I didn't look deep enough. There's no Vala of Joy vs. Sorrow, but Nienna is more than tears, she's compassion and empathy. She's also quite selfless, which again opposes her to Melkor, who has no compassion and is as selfish as a 2-year-old having a tantrum. (That would be a good match for The Arena: Morgoth vs a tantrum child. The latter can be fierce!) Add that to Healing vs. Marring, and they are doomed to NOT be a happy couple, even if opposites attract. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Brethil
Gondolin
Apr 18 2013, 1:23am
Post #21 of 72
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Absolutely. I think in reads prior I was missing this, Finwe
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Anytime Tolkien zooms in from the bird's eye view narrative style that makes up the majority of the Silmarillion, you can be sure it is most definitely deliberate and meaningful. This is Feanor's chapter all the way. The chapters in the Sil can seem broken and disjointed at times, but upon closer examination, all the previous chapters serve as buildup to this one. And all subsequent chapters are details of what happens as a result of this one.
Yes I agree, it has an intimacy with Feanor here that we didn't even get to see in chapters 6 or 7, where we get the back story and the buildup. So this zoom-in view, even including Manwe's dry, puzzling comment, is the story payoff for all that has come before. As far as Feanor I have always been so tied up in Ch 6 that perhaps I haven't given this section its just due. And all the events to come will flow, as you say, from this point...with the loss of Finwe it all becomes *ALMOST* inevitable. doesn't it? The chance for Feanor to back down or have an epiphany is so slim now, with Nerdanel gone from his life, the Jewels taken and Finwe gone too (and perhaps not loved as much as he could have been until it is too late)...all Feanor has left is his anger and sense of loss, unless something massive and internal happened - which sadly at this point I don't see him capable of.
(BTW, writing TO Finwe about Finwe - feels a bit odd!) 
Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.
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Brethil
Gondolin
Apr 18 2013, 1:48am
Post #22 of 72
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Well, we all know about my weakness for ponies and bad boys, especially Dwarven kings...
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(Ahem) But as far as Nienna...
In Beginning of Days, as Yavanna sang her song of power "...Nienna thought in silence, and watered the mould with tears." It is after that, with more chanting, that the saplings appear. So Yavanna is the moving, spiritual force in their creation, and the vision is hers, but Nienna's tears are the environmental equivalent of the water needed for them to grow I think.
I'm glad you posted that about Nienna, CG, because I wasn't that confident about the connection back when we were in the previous chapters (and before then I was merely lurking) but now I feel better about it. And you're right, they are opposites in almost every way! Selfish to selfless, taker to giver, instrument of pain to sounding board for pain, breaker and fixer. One thing they have in common though - they do both FEEL very intensely though, just to different ends. Think of how she aided on Melkor's behalf before the Manwe for his benefit; there is something there - not attraction per se, but certainly not revulsion, and she could open her heart to help him, after what he caused, which hurt her. Deeply unhappy for Nienna in the end.
Well, indirectly from the more negative view of the events JRRT does 'credit' Melkor with the Sun and Moon - referring to them as the light of Fallen, marred Arda. But I think it can be traced back through a purely historical way too, so I wouldn't call it 'credit' in that sense that his influence was a dark one, but the tie is there for the rest of the World to get Light, even imperfect Light.
(I sympathize, I hate not having my books with me, like when I am at work and bring the laptop along. My friends make enough geek jokes about me without me bringing half a dozen JRRT books along too....)
Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 18 2013, 6:28am
Post #23 of 72
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Back in Ch2 some of us had a discussion of why so many of the Valar came in married heterosexual pairs, with a few singletons like Melkor. "Where was 'Melkorina' ", I wondered? What started out a bit whimsy by me turned out some interesting points.
This post of Squire's might be a good starting point for that sub-theme
http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=557729#557729
I'm **not** suggesting that this earlier discussion should preclude more now! Then, one of the Melkorina candidates was Ungoliant, & we get to see how that couple don't get on too stably in this Chapter!
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
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Brethil
Gondolin
Apr 18 2013, 11:10am
Post #24 of 72
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Yes, I remember that, and I like Squire's point about Nienna
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Squire makes a good case for a better and happier pairing for Nienna - Ulmo, a supportive and strong figure. But the Nienna - Melkor I see is sort of a pair-that-isn't, maybe because of the very natures of each if those two Valar. Part of Nienna's strength I think comes from being alone and feeling for the entire World; and Melkor's deep reaction to rejection is part of what starts him down the path that he chose. But as 'opposites' and both involved with the Trees (one in creation, one is destruction) and then later with the Silmarils, they are sort of bound up together historically if not personally. Nienna's part in the origins is the organic, natural part of growth and nurturing, while Melkor is at the other end, destroying nature in the form of he living Trees and coveting the mechanical representation of what they were.
True about JRRT sometimes not balancing the sexes; but in this case I think part of what makes Nienna herself is her loneliness.
Thanks for the link, NoWiz!
Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 18 2013, 11:30am
Post #25 of 72
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I think you're right - they're poles apart
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I think I once read the idea that the way to be happy was to either love everybody (Nienna) or love nobody at all (Melkor). Not sure either of them is happy, though. They could be a wonderfully co-dependent couple however - he'd keep on doing worse things so that she could keep on forgiving him...
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 18 2013, 11:31am)
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