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drogo
Menegroth
Dec 12 2007, 2:29pm
Post #1 of 19
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Fog on the Barrow-downs IV: Tom Bombadil Redux
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Right after Frodo has taken a swing at the hand of the Barrow-wight, the memory of Tom's house enters his mind, and he remembers the song Tom taught him: " Ho! Tom Bombadil!"
Tom then breaks open the Barrow as he sings his song, now with a new verse:
Get out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!
Shrivel like the cold mist, like the winds go wailing,
Out into the barren lands far beyond the mountains!
Come never here again! Leave your barrow empty!
Lost and forgotten be, darker than the darkness,
Where gates stand for ever shut, till the world is mended.
How is Tom able to appear so quickly? Is the song a summoning spell of sorts? Does his proximity indicate that he was keeping an eye on the hobbits, or that he is omnipresent in the areas adjacent to his realm?
What does this episode say about the power of song in LOTR? (Think about the other instances of singing and of the singing contest in The Silmarillion between Finrod and Sauron that Tolkien based upon the song duels of the Finnish Kalevala.)
The hobbits finally shake off the spell of the Wight and regain consciousness, but Merry has some interesting lingering effects in which he sees through the eyes of one of the long deceased Men fighting the Witch-king's forces:
"What in the name of wonder?" began Merry, feeling the golden circlet that had slipped over one eye. Then he stopped, and a shadow came over his face, and he closed his eyes. "Of course, I remember!" he said. "The men of Carn Dûm came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!" He clutched at his breast. "No! No!" he said, opening his eyes. "What am I saying? I have been dreaming. Where did you get to, Frodo?"
What is the nature of this "dream" or memory Merry experiences? How can we account for this merging of Merry and a besieged Man of the early Third Age in Tolkien's universe? Does it have any parallels in other parts of the LOTR or the legendarium?
Other thoughts on the rescue? How does this differ from the Old Man Willow episode: do we see Frodo developing and growing as a hero at this point?
More on Thursday.
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 12 2007, 4:10pm
Post #2 of 19
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How is Tom able to appear so quickly?
There's a perfectly logical explanation available; the hobbits' ponies fled back to Tom's house without the hobbits, so he knew they were in trouble and came looking. However in this case Tolkien works hard to make the logical explanation seem magical, instead of the other way around.
The appearance of the Eagles in Mordor is similar. There are logical explanations for why the Eagles would show up, but Tolkien does not give us the explanations, thus making it seem like divine intervention.
Usually Tolkien does just the opposite, glossing over magic by describing it in ambiguous terms. But where Tolkien wants to hint that magic is taking place, he glosses over the logical explanation. Still, there is a logical explanation available.
One other example comes to mind; the eruption of Mount Doom. The logical explanation is that Mount Doom has recently become active after centuries of dormancy, then sends out vast clouds of dust which cover the land in darkness, and finally explodes. The magical explanation is that Sauron uses Mount Doom to create the Great Darkness, and then Sauron and Barad-dur fall when the Ring is unmade. Again, in this instance Tolkien glosses over the logical explanation -- but the logical explanation exists.
So with Tom we have a mini-eucatastrophe, an unexpected rescue in this small prelude to the main tale. It seems magical, as if Tom came when called -- but if we look closely we see that Tolkien provided a logical explanation for Tom's appearance.
Is the song a summoning spell of sorts?
Maybe. Tolkien certainly hints that it is, but also leaves room for the skeptic's explanation.
Note, by the way, that Tom's song, like the wight's incantation, seems to refer to the mythos Tolkien created in The Silmarillion. Tom banishes the wight to "Where the gates stand for ever shut, til the world is mended." That seems to be the Void, where Morgoth has been similarly banished until the final battle, where Morgoth's taint will be mended. The spirits of the Nazgul, Sauron, and Saruman may be similarly banished, although it is possible that they wander the world in a weak and helpless form.
Does his proximity indicate that he was keeping an eye on the hobbits, or that he is omnipresent in the areas adjacent to his realm?
Again, Tolkien hints at the supernatural explanation, but leaves room for the natural explanation.
What does this episode say about the power of song in LOTR?
If we look closely at LotR, we can find many examples of songs which may or may not have some sort of power over what happens next in the tale. However unlike most other examples, here Tolkien hints that the song is responsible for Tom's appearance, rather than glossing over the connection. In the Silmarillion the narrator simply tells us that certain songs have power, without any ambiguity. (You note Finrod and Sauron, and I would note the songs of Luthien.) In LotR Tolkien favors hinting over telling, and ambiguity over certainty.
What is the nature of this "dream" or memory Merry experiences?
It does not seem to be an ordinary dream, but a vision of something that really happened, or a false memory of a real event, with Merry imagining himself as one of the men buried in the barrow.
How can we account for this merging of Merry and a besieged Man of the early Third Age in Tolkien's universe?
I attribute it to the wight's enchantment. Alternatively, perhaps the clothes and treasure have some residual memories associated with them. Or perhaps this is similar to the visions of dead people in the Dead Marshes. It isn't like the ghosts in the Paths of the Dead, who are cursed spirits. It's more like some residual memory of the people who died, bits of their spirits rather than the whole of their spirit.
Does it have any parallels in other parts of the LOTR or the legendarium?
As I said, it reminds me of the Dead Marshes, but not the Paths of the Dead, which I think is something different.
Other thoughts on the rescue? How does this differ from the Old Man Willow episode: do we see Frodo developing and growing as a hero at this point?
Frodo does find his courage here, rather than just yelling for help. I'm not sure the outcome would have been any different if Tom had not heard him, but Frodo seems much more in control of himself, at least, than he did with Old Man Willow. Frodo also faced down the temptation to put on the Ring and run away, which is an important step in his development.
As I said a week or two ago, and several years ago, I'm struck by the similarities between the hobbits' adventures in Bombadil's house and the barrow and the rituals involved in making new knights. This seems to me to be a right of passage for the hobbits before they begin the central adventure of the epic with their new guide Strider. The hobbits leave their old lives behind, and are reborn as adventurers in a world very different from the Shire.
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Dec 12 2007, 4:26pm
Post #3 of 19
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What does this episode say about the power of song in LOTR?
[..] (You note Finrod and Sauron, and I would note the songs of Luthien.)
Yes, Curious! I was in the process of composing some thoughts along the same lines, but you beat me to it. Lúthien's songs, both in Middle-earth and before Mandos, are analogous. And Drogo, I happen to know that you yourself are (or were, or may be?) working on a paper on the song contests of the Kalevala as a source for Tolkien. Anything to add yourself? I also touch on these song contests briefly in my essay in The Silmarillion: Thirty Years On (Walking Tree, 2007). The essay is called “From Mythopoeia to Mythography: Tolkien, Lönnrot, and Jerome.” (Shameless self-promotion, I know; but I can live with myself, hahae.)
What is the nature of this "dream" or memory Merry experiences?
No one has mentioned it yet (probably only because N.E. Brigand hasn't logged in yet this morning, hahae), but Verlyn Flieger has an extended study of Merry's "dream" in the new issue of Tolkien Studies: “The Curious Incident of the Dream at the Barrow: Memory and Reincarnation in Middle-earth” (Tolkien Studies 4 (2007): 99–112). This essay developed out of the keynote address she delivered at the University of Vermont's Tolkien conference in April 2006.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 12 2007, 8:33pm
Post #5 of 19
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Is there more than one kind of soul?
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The memories that Merry receives in this situation call to mind a possibility that a friend of mine wrote into his fantasy world at one point, in which a person possesses more than one spirit, each of a different type, and these different types are sundered and each go to quite different fates after the individual's death. I agree with Curious that the memories of Merry resemble the faces in the Dead Marshes more than any other comparable interaction with the dead anywhere else in the legendarium. However, based on Tolkien's mythology in the Silmarillion, the following question arises:
According to the Silmarillion, Elves have immortal souls that go to Valinor following death. Men have mortal souls that go beyond the circles of the world following death. We do not know what kind of souls Orcs have, if any, but I think that we can be virtually certain that they do not go to Valinor, nor receive the 'gift' that Death (for Men) supposedly represents. And yet, in the Dead Marshes, the ghosts there bear the memories of all three! How is this possible?
The memories of beings in Middle Earth including those Merry is imbued with suggest to me that some form of spirit can remain after the death of an apparently noble individual: The Men of Carn Dûm are wicked Men, who fought with the Men of Cardolan, one of the kingdoms of Arnor, where we now are. So the spirit of this Man should have gone beyond the circles of the world.
I propose that there is some other form of spirit that Men also possess in addition to their souls that can stay behind in Arda. It also suggests that those Elves who were "lost to Elvenkind" (Lúthien, Arwen) might still leave something behind, something more than just their bloodline...
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 12 2007, 11:03pm
Post #6 of 19
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In Tolkien's world I think the soul or spirit can be split up a bit.
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Thus Sauron pours a good portion of his spirit into the Ring, and Eol pours his bitter spirit into Turin's sword. On the good side, whoever made Glamdring and Sting poured their good spirits into those swords, and Anduril is similar. In Unfinished Tales a Wose pours his spirit into a statue that comes to life when he is gone. Usually we see this with makers and the things they make, but in the Dead Marshes it might also have to with where these people died. Another example that comes to mind is the palantir held by Denethor when he dies, in which all but Aragorn and his kin see nothing but Denethor's hands.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 12 2007, 11:31pm
Post #7 of 19
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Tolkien explicitly says that some of the bad guys' dividing their spirits up into artifacts and, in one instance, a planet, results in the weakening of the spirits of those doing the dividing. This would happen if spirit were conserved, i.e. it is not possible for anyone (except Eru, of course) to create new spirit, except potentially by the conception of children (unless that is also handled by Eru, which it is in Morgoth's Ring). There is implication that spirit also cannot be destroyed, at least as far as the description of souls goes, although one has to wonder than what happens to the part of Sauron's spirit that is in the Ring when it is destroyed.
Does this rule also apply to the good guys? Are Varda and Yavana weaker now than they once were, some of their spirits passed into the dead Trees? Did Glamdring and Orchrist take something out of the Elves that made them?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 13 2007, 3:08am
Post #8 of 19
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With Eru, all things are possible.
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After all, Gandalf comes back from the dead more powerful than ever.
But even without Eru's direct intervention, spirit, or energy of spirit, seems to be somewhat renewable for both good and bad characters. Thus Feanor's mother gives up her ghost because she thinks the energy she spent giving birth to Feanor can never be renewed, but she is wrong, and eventually is reincarnated. But the Shadow also can reform over time. Thus Sauron came back from "death" more than once, and Morgoth will come back at the end of time.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 13 2007, 4:46am
Post #9 of 19
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Although, in the case of Morgoth,
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he was physically thrown out of the Doors of Night, instead of slain and his spirit dispersed.
When he comes back, I can't help but wonder how they expect to defeat him. Suppose that Túrin does manage to slay Morgoth with the Black Sword - that will release Morgoth's spirit to unite with the taint that is in Middle Earth. Is it not possible that this will bring back the real Melkor, only stronger?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 13 2007, 6:43am
Post #10 of 19
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This is a Very Interesting Thread
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I can add only two points (or questions) to: - I haven't got The Silmarillion here (which reminds me - the bloke I've lent it to hasn't returned it yet), bot IIRC, at the end of "Of the Third Age and the Rings of Power" it is said that Sauron was casted out of the Doors of Night. Is it so? What does it mean?
- The connection between artifacts and the spirit of the creator is clear in Feanor's words to the Valar, when he is asked to surrender the Silmarils so they could heal the Two Trees. And clearly, the difference between the Three and the Nine is due to the Three being imbued only by Celebribor's spirit, without Sauron's. I think Elrond says so at his Council.
On a different question - why is it Merry who has this vision? On the way to Bree, he is clearly the leader (meaning guide). Is this coimcidental, or has a deepoer meaning?
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vtboyarc
Menegroth
Dec 13 2007, 6:51am
Post #11 of 19
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I like to think of it as magical. The Ring didn't effect Tom, think how powerful, from a magical perspective, he must be therefore. I'm guessing that he really wouldn't have wanted to leave the Old Forest and go along following the Hobbits. The song must be magical thing, and he must of been able to quickly transport to the location of where the song is sung, i.e., where the Hobbits were at that time, in the Barrow Downs.
The question that always plagues me, is what is Tom? A vala?
Theres some good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and its worth fighting for.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 13 2007, 7:25am
Post #12 of 19
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It isn't necessarily just power
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Beings aren't necessarily just on a scale of greater to lesser; the scale may be multidimensional. The impression that we have of Tom as conveyed by Gandalf in the Council of Elrond is that Tom is other: he's not subject to the normal rules of Middle Earth, which includes things like the Rings of Power.
Here's another, similar example: consider the Army of the Dead. We don't know whether their weapons "bite" or not (they do in the movie, but they never get to test them in the book). We can surmise, however, that ordinary spears and swords and whatnot cannot harm them; they're ghosts, after all. Aragorn is not a ghost, and there is no reason why he could not be killed by a well-aimed spear-thrust. And yet, he is able to command the Army of the Dead, because of who he is. I think that the relationship between Tom Bombadil and the Rings of Power may be similar: they simply do not affect one-another, and have no power over one-another. Obviously Tom cannot destroy the Ring, can he?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 13 2007, 11:39am
Post #13 of 19
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dernwyn's theory on Tom and his words
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was posted in a thread below.
The song must be magical thing, and he must of been able to quickly transport to the location of where the song is sung, i.e., where the Hobbits were at that time, in the Barrow Downs.
Even though I can't explain how they are connected, Tom and his words/songs/voice are all bound up together somehow. His power is words and song, literally.
The question that always plagues me, is what is Tom? A vala?
Not that I'm trying to squelch further contemplation of this subject (we'll probably never get to the end of discussion about what-who-how is Tom. But there is discussion of this in some of the threads below, and I put my own thoughts on the subject here.
I definitely think it's a kind of magic, and it isn't Elven and it isn't possessed by any other entities we come across in LOTR. My take.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 13 2007, 11:56am
Post #14 of 19
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Does his proximity indicate that he was keeping an eye on the hobbits, or that he is omnipresent in the areas adjacent to his realm?
I think his quick appearance indicates the power of his songs. Specifically. I don't know how they work, necessarily, but somehow they are powerful and they are powerful specifically because they are Tom's song in Tom's domain.
So...a spell, I guess. For lack of a better word.
What does this episode say about the power of song in LOTR?
I'm not sure these songs are really like anything else in LOTR. They are like the spells Gandalf talks about, maybe, when he says he once knew all the spells in all the tongues of men and elves (to paraphrase). I mean, this specific use of Tom's song by the hobbits is like a spell.
Maybe they are, in a way, like the song Sam sings in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. That song doesn't bring a..."person"...like this song does, but it does summon strength and courage and hope.
What is the nature of this "dream" or memory Merry experiences? How can we account for this merging of Merry and a besieged Man of the early Third Age in Tolkien's universe?
Flieger discusses this dream in Question of Time. She notes that in the published text, Merry is obviously speaking with the voice and memory of another person entirely. In the drafts, though, Merry doesn't talk this way and just makes some vague mention of being unconscious in the barrow. What happened in the interim between the draft version and the published version is that Tolkien was working on Notion Club Papers, his time-travel story in which the main character(s) travel through time in dreams. She posits a connection between his ideas in Notion Club and Merry's subsequent dream episode.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 13 2007, 3:14pm
Post #15 of 19
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The key to defeating Morgoth once and for all
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is the remaking of Arda, for Arda Marred is Morgoth's Ring. Morgoth has dispersed his tainted spirit into all of Arda as Sauron did into the Ring. Until Arda can be remade, then, Morgoth can not truly be defeated. It's a neat and evil trick.
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 13 2007, 4:42pm
Post #16 of 19
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I don't think you are remembering correctly.
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"Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" says "Then Sauron failed, and he was utterly vanquished and passed away like a shadow of malice..." That may or may not mean that he was cast out of the Doors of Night to join Morgoth in the Void. Another possibility is that Sauron's spirit simply wandered the world without any power to make himself felt, like some minor ghost. The same may be true of the spirits of the Nazgul and Saruman.
I agree with your second point about the Silmarils and the rings.
My guess is that Sam and Pippin had dreams similar to Merry's, but we never find out if that is true. I do think it would be even more incongruous if good old Sam or young Pippin spoke the formal words of a dead prince, so perhaps that is why Tolkien chose Merry for those lines. Merry has a rather serious personality, for a hobbit. That becomes much more clear when he finds himself alone in Rohan.
Of course it is Merry who actually avenges the dead prince on the Fields of Pelennor, using the prince's sword to cut through the spells protecting the Witch-king of Angmar. Could it be that the prince's spirit stayed with Merry all that time? Ooh, that is intriguing!
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 13 2007, 8:28pm
Post #17 of 19
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By no living man shall he be slain!
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That's another character who fits that prophecy who does the WK! Cool!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 13 2007, 9:24pm
Post #18 of 19
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Oh well, it's never nice to be caught in a mistake. But thanks a lot.
Also, I've really enjoyed the connection you've pointed out regarding Merry and the Witch-king. I wouldn't take it as far as the prince's spirit actually staying with Merry, but swords do somehow resonance with their owners (in Tolkien's world). And Merry does avenge the prince of Cardolan. Thanks for this idea, even more.
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 13 2007, 9:38pm
Post #19 of 19
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I can see the prince's spirit staying with the sword.
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It seems similar to Eol's bitter spirit in Turin's sword, or for that matter to Sauron's evil spirit in the Ring. But it does seem appropriate that Merry, of all people, channeled the prince's spirit for a moment way back in the barrows, and then avenged the prince in Gondor.
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