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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Mar 4 2013, 6:32pm
Post #2 of 37
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Thranduil is a bit of a rotter anyway
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Putting the Dwarves in prison for trespassing and provoking the spiders is a good enough reason; whether or not Thranduil knows it is Thorin.
And don't forget that Thorin is worried (in AUJ) that others may have read the same signs, and also go after the gold. If Thranduil knows about their Quest, perhaps he's tempted to get there before him?
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dormouse
Gondolin
Mar 4 2013, 6:59pm
Post #4 of 37
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My hero (at age 8-ish) and, as we all know, 'the lord of a good and kindly people'. And well within his rights to round up a group of dwarves who kept disrupting his people - 'did you not three times pursue and trouble my people in the forest and rouse the spiders with your riot and clamour' - and then wouldn't say what they were doing in his land. Mirkwood's a dangerous place, you know, can't be too careful....
Seriously, I don't think that the fact that film Thranduil clearly knows the Erebor dwarves needs change very much. In the book the Elvenking doesn't use Thorin's name, but he doesn't ask who he is either. He asks why the dwarves attacked his people - which is presumably how it seemed to the elves - where the dwarves had come from, where they were going, what they were doing. For all he knew, they might have been the forerunners of a dwarf army coming to attack him - it wouldn't be the first time. You could read that whole passage in the sense that the King knew who Thorin was and it wouldn't alter anything - it's the dwarves' intentions he's worried by; for all we know he does recognise Thorin.
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Rostron2
Mithlond
Mar 4 2013, 7:02pm
Post #5 of 37
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I guess the only thing we can say for certain is that it's going to be debated whether he was fairly or unfairly characterized. There's not a lot of source material to go on, so it's going to mean a lot of writer/director/actor dramatic license will be taken with his character.
In general, he ought to be a 'gray' figure in this quest. He does the right thing in the end, since the enemies of the dwarves are his enemies, but the elves are kind of like some countries: They stay neutral until they can't any more.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Mar 4 2013, 7:04pm
Post #6 of 37
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Thranduil comes across far less jerk-y in the book than in the film
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And I fully agree that he has every right for imprisoning them. I think, however, that the film deliberately sets it up so that Thranduil comes across as a rotter. I can't imagine any non-reader not thinking that Thranduil is a mean-spirited elf.
It'll be interesting to see how this plays out in DOS and TABA.
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Brethil
Gondolin
Mar 4 2013, 7:28pm
Post #7 of 37
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Perhaps Thorin and Thranduil have more in common than is good for them
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Thranduil is of the Firstborn who never saw the light of the Two Trees, and as Tolkien wrote was more wild and less wise that other Elves - presumably those who did see the Light (although this detail would not be described until later in canon). He also has quite a significant desire to possess certain wealth- I believe white gems were his trinkets of choice, not quite in line with the desires of other wiser Elves.
Thorin is a direct male descendant of Durin, the greatest of the Elf-friends among the Dwarven fathers. So between all the races of Elves and Dwarves I think they are the most similar to each other and in the position to most closely have certain resemblances to each other in behavior.
I envision a Venn diagram with Thranduil and Thorin, with the overlap being possession of gems of beauty and uniqueness. And since the traits shared in common involve desire for possession of the same general types of items, and are thereby competitive, and sets up a rivalry. Take by contrast an overlap of, for example, social customs or shared ideals, which may bring people or races closer together rather than farther apart.
Of course the most beautiful and unique of all the white gemstones would be the Arkenstone...is there motive here held in common that explains both their actions?
And how amazingly EXPLOSIVE does Bilbo's handing over the Arkenstone to The Enemy become, when Thranduil is probably rubbing nbis long white hands together to get hold of it!
And to add as contrast - Elrond and Thorin have no Venn overlap, yet through Elrond's greater wisdom a (tentative) peace was begun between them.
It could explain why Thranduil pays homage to Thror as long as the flow of gems continues, but why he shows no compassion when Thror is wounded and stumbling out from Erebor. Aside from whatever the film team is doing, I think the similarity metaphor holds up based on what we know about the charactars just from text.
(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 4 2013, 7:34pm)
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QuackingTroll
Doriath
Mar 4 2013, 7:46pm
Post #8 of 37
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Or for killing his stag in Mirkwood. Which isn't an unlikely speculation IMO //
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macfalk
Doriath
Mar 4 2013, 7:53pm
Post #9 of 37
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Sorry, couldn't disagree more!
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<Thranduil rant commencing>
I think Thranduil is greedy and treats the dwarves like garbage. Imprisoning travelers in dark cells underground for weeks. Fine, if you want to play the tough lord in your homeland, I suppose he was in his rights.
But when the news reach him that the dragon has fallen (the treasures are unguarded) he loses his last shred of respect for me. He's a hypocrite, and has no problem tresspassing into other people's lands, but when someone walks into his own land, you get a free ride to the Mirkwood dark cells.
<Thranduil rant finished>
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Mar 4 2013, 8:08pm
Post #10 of 37
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Another thought about Thranduil finding out the purpose of why they are in Mirwkood
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In the book, the Elves put a spell on Thorin when they drag him back to Thranduil's Halls ...
Perhaps they use the spell to find out his true purpose, and why they are travelling through Mirkwood.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Mar 4 2013, 8:15pm
Post #11 of 37
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He does give them plenty of food and water (not to mention shelter away from the spiders!)
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If he was that mean, he'd just let them rot in his cells. He was never going to best buddies with the Company - the Elves and Dwarves have too much history between them.
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Dwarf Cupcake
Lindon
Mar 4 2013, 11:05pm
Post #12 of 37
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( I know, dangerous...  )Perhaps they're setting Thranduil up to be an antagonist. Not the villain, but someone who gets in the way of the heroes on their way to their goal. Just the impression I got from the way he was shown in THUJ.
Not All those who wander are lost...
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dormouse
Gondolin
Mar 4 2013, 11:25pm
Post #13 of 37
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I think the spell just knocks him out, doesn't it?
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If it also gave them access to his mind they wouldn't have had to ask what he was up to.
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Elenorflower
Mithlond
Mar 4 2013, 11:31pm
Post #14 of 37
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I agree. In the book Thranduil
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was not a horrible Elf. He did all he could to help the people of Laketown when they were in desperate trouble. He was fair minded and not selfish at all. The only 'negative' thing that could be said of him was that he imprisoned the Dwarves, but the Dwarves were well treated at all times, and I think Thranduil wanted answers to the Dwarves stubborn silence more than he wanted to imprison anyone. He also liked jools, but he didnt insist on keeping anything after the battle of 5 A. Bilbo liked him and not only wished to fight by the side of the Elvenking (and Bilbo was a good judge of character) he also presented Thranduil with an emerald necklace because he knew Thranduil would like it. That all says to me that in the book at least Thranduil was a jolly nice sort.
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Elenorflower
Mithlond
Mar 4 2013, 11:39pm
Post #15 of 37
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but Thranduil didnt tresspass anywhere. He went to the aid of the people of Laketown, Dale was deserted, and he thought the Dwarves were all dead, plus no body lived in the Desolation of Smaug, so I fail to see who's land he tresspassed on, unless you mean the Giant Snails rocks.
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Finrod
Nargothrond
Mar 5 2013, 1:45am
Post #16 of 37
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The Elvenking was one of the good guys
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but Thranduil didn’t tresspass anywhere. He went to the aid of the people of Laketown, Dale was deserted, and he thought the Dwarves were all dead, plus no body lived in the Desolation of Smaug, so I fail to see who's land he tresspassed on, unless you mean the Giant Snails rocks.
Quite right!
The Elvenking was gentler than many a mortal ruler, who would regularly put all poachers of the royal woodland (where the king himself did hunt) to the sword, no matter whether they were starving or not.
And he’s the one who quite nobly proclaimed:But the Elvenking said: “Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold. The dwarves cannot press us, unless we will, or do anything that we cannot mark. Let us hope still for something that will bring reconciliation. Our advantage in numbers will be enough, if in the end it must come to unhappy blows.” And remember, too, Bilbo at the end:He had taken his stand on Ravenhill among the Elves — partly because there was more chance of escape from that point, and partly (with the more Tookish part of his mind) because if he was going to be in a last desperate stand, he preferred on the whole to defend the Elvenking. What could be clearer?
Both the Hobbit and the Elvenking withstood the dragon sickness much better than the Dwarves, who seemed particularly susceptible. Do not forget thatThey dwelt most often by the edges of the woods, from which they could escape at times to hunt, or to ride and run over the open lands by moonlight or starlight; and after the coming of Men they took ever more and more to the gloaming and the dusk. Still elves they were and remain, and that is Good People. Tolkien’s position on his Elves here is unambiguous.
…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house.The Silmarillion, pp 150-151 while Felagund laughs beneath the treesin Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.The Lays of Beleriand, p 311
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marillaraina
Nargothrond
Mar 5 2013, 2:18am
Post #17 of 37
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I agree with Macfolk. I never liked the Elvenking in the book. Sure it's nice he gave them food and water and didn't beat them, but he STILL imprisoned them.
They were not attacking the elves, they were trying to get help and the elves disappeared every time they showed up. It was dark and confusing in the woods, they were starving. Unlike the elves who were in their home territory and familiar with the woods. The elves themselves show little compassion for them if they kept disappearing and didn't even try to talk to them.
Now I understand they weren't omniscient and may have thought they were being attacked, but as I said, they are elves, they are familiar with the area, it would not be terribly hard to figure out it was a just a group of 13 starving dwarves who maybe they could VOLUNTEER to help, had they bothered to make even a small effort to figure out what was happening. Even if they were being attacked, you'd think they'd want to "know their enemy" and if they'd done that it would have pretty easy to see it was 13 fairly clueless very hungry dwarves..
If the elves, and Thranduil in particular, are so "wise and king" then IMO the normal "human" reasons for such behavior cannot be used to excuse their behavior.
Imprisoned is imprisoned, it doesn't matter if the captors are "nice" they are still captors. More, the dwarves were at least semi-isolated and Thorin himself was essentially in solitary confinement not near any of them. That is rather cruel in itself considering how important and companionship appear to be to the dwarves.
Sure Thranduil went to help Laketown, but he had ZERO business having anything at all to do with the trouble regarding getting a share of the treasure that had belonged for Dale, or frankly, getting any kind of "repayment" for himself, because that suggests he didn't help them out of the kindness of his heart but because he figured he'd get it back, so no skin off his nose and it would make him look good, keep the wheels of commerce flowing easily between them.
If he was so serious about not going to war for gold, then he should NOT have been there when the battle started. He should have refused to take part and left. In hindsight it may be good he was there(extra hands when the wargs and orcs and goblins, etc showed) but there was no way of knowing that would happen to start with. But it wasn't his fight.
I think Tolkien was just in love with elves because to be honest I saw very little reason for Bilbo to so "If I have to go war I'd want to defend the Elvenking". :) And to seem so in awe of him, especially when many of the dwarves had been good to him.
Obviously Thranduil was not evil or a bad guy, but even in the book I thought he was a real first class jerk and quite greedy himself and in fact rather lacking in what seemed like real compassion.
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Mar 5 2013, 2:26am)
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Escapist
Mithlond
Mar 5 2013, 2:24am
Post #18 of 37
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I think the imprisonment situation was epicly sad
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because you know that the elves are good people and so are the dwarves, but instead of partying together we get this.
I can't blame the Elvenking too much, though, because when he demanded an explanation Thorin refused and in dark times under the shadow from Dol Guldur, that is not something to treat lightly.
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marillaraina
Nargothrond
Mar 5 2013, 2:33am
Post #19 of 37
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because you know that the elves are good people and so are the dwarves, but instead of partying together we get this.
I can't blame the Elvenking too much, though, because when he demanded an explanation Thorin refused and in dark times under the shadow from Dol Guldur, that is not something to treat lightly.
Oh I don't know. He had 13 dwarves who apparently could barely manage to feed themselves. Does he really think they are working for some dark force? And even if they are, if they are that incompetent, hardly anything to worry about.
It makes him look sort of stupid if he did. Especially after having them imprisoned for so long. It just seemed mean for the sake of it. Not cruel but mean. I'd say after a couple days it would be obvious they were just a group of dwarves who had gotten lost and just wanted to get the hell out of there and continue on their way. If it's dark to the elves who are familiar with it, the elves would have to realize it would even worse and more confusing to people who had never even been there before.
To me Thranduil just came across as looking for an excuse to imprison them because he didn't like dwarves and esp didn't like not being answered, not because he actually was in any way worried about them in actuality or because he really had any right to know.
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macfalk
Doriath
Mar 5 2013, 8:32am
Post #20 of 37
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You leave out one, but very vital detail
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"but Thranduil didnt tresspass anywhere.
Um, he went with an army to Laketown (definately outside his borders) with hostile intentions.
"He went to the aid of the people of Laketown,"
Oh, no. No, no, no... that was not his initial plan. Only after witnessed the destruction of Laketown in person did he help the people. His plan was always to march forward to the Mountain (where the gold dwelled that he so badly wanted, but was never his to take) and take it by force
As for "tresspassing" or not, I suppose that lies in the eye of the beholder. He's a hypocrite though, according to him it's a severe crime to wander through his woods, but taking an army to steal treasures that aren't his in a land that he is tresspassing on, is no problem for him. He's obsessed with gems, as Tolkien wrote, and would do anything to become as wealthy as the other Elven lords.
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
(This post was edited by macfalk on Mar 5 2013, 8:33am)
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Mar 5 2013, 9:31am
Post #21 of 37
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But I wouldn't mind a deviation from the text. Perhaps it's similar to Galadriel's mind-reading power?
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ElendilTheShort
Mithlond
Mar 5 2013, 9:52am
Post #22 of 37
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He aint tresspassing until he refuses to leave as requested by the owner of the land.
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The assumption was that Thorin and Co were dead, and the mountain uninhabited. I will agree with you on this macfalk, it seems to me the reason to lay seige to the lonely mountain was tenuous at best for those of Laketown and entirely without just cause from Thranduil. Aiding the Lakemen is one thing, going to war on their behalf is another. This plot point has always concerned me, it is like the entire situation irrationally escalated.
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macfalk
Doriath
Mar 5 2013, 10:20am
Post #23 of 37
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When I come to this point in the book, I always find sympathy for the Laketown people and Bard. I can't however, for the life of me find any sympathy for the Mirkwood elves. I always think: Why are they here? The matter of Erebor and the gold should be no concern of theirs.
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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dormouse
Gondolin
Mar 5 2013, 11:05am
Post #24 of 37
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Well, you see, I've always read it completely the other way
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..from 8 years old onwards. The dwarves to me were grumpy old men with beards. They were mean to Bilbo, rude to Gandalf. They caught me in the beginning with 'Far over the Misty Mountains' and that sense of loss and longing - I was always a sucker for lost battles - but the way they grumbled their way through the journey dispelled the sympathy. I didn't mind Fili and Kili - probably because they were the youngest, but the others, no.
So when it came to Mirkwood, and those lovely mysterious glimpses of the Elves out being elves - the lights and the music - and the Elvenking, so beautiful and so beautifully spoken, so obviously noble and nice - I couldn't understand why Bilbo didn't just tell him everything and join up with the Elves. His decision to stand with the Elvenking in the battle made perfect sense to me then and it still does - hang it all, Thorin had just come close to killing him and the others didn't raise a finger to help.
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imin
Doriath
Mar 5 2013, 1:06pm
Post #25 of 37
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Never cared much for nasty Thranduil, lol. Put me off elves for a few years when i was little and sealed the deal for my liking of the dwarves.
Thranduil was basically a jerk - this coming from my view of a 7/8 year old.
(This post was edited by imin on Mar 5 2013, 1:06pm)
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