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Eowyn3
Ossiriand
Feb 16 2013, 4:02am
Post #1 of 24
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Union between Elves and Mortals
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Technically there were only 3 unions of Elves and Mortals in Tolkien's world : Luthien and Beren, Idril and Tuor, and Aragorn with Arwen. My question is: Why in each of these unions it was always the husband mortal and the wife Elven? Why no union where the husband is Elven and the wife mortal? Even with Thingol and Melian, we see that the the wife is the higher order. Was there a reason why Tolkien never did choose the other way around?
" He has just as much reason to go to war as you do. Why can he not fight for those he loves?"
(This post was edited by Eowyn3 on Feb 16 2013, 4:04am)
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Ardamírë
Doriath
Feb 16 2013, 5:08am
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There are two other instances I can think of.
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One is from the Unfinished Tales. I believe her name is Mithrellas, though I can't remember for sure. I totally don't remember the guy's name. I think it was a forced union.
The other was actually just pining that never resulted in anything. And this one was actually an Elf man and a Human woman, Aegnor and Andreth. It's talked about somewhat in Morgoth's Ring, but not a lot.
I'm sure others could give you much more information. I'm too tired at the moment to be of much help. Sorry 
There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Feb 16 2013, 6:28am
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I think the way that Elven blood got into the veins of the human nobility of Dol Amroth was from a human male and an elven female.
No idea why the woman is always the more divine of the two. Maybe it's traditional: you have fairy princesses in stories, but not fairy princes, so the magic should lie with the lady?
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Feb 16 2013, 11:46am
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Yes, it was Mithrellas, a hand-maiden of Nimrodel who married Imrazor, as told in UT. I didn't get the idea it was a forced marriage, though - forced by whom? Anyway, through that union an elven bloodline pops up in a variety of surprising places - Imrahil is a descendant of Imrazor; that's explained - but then so are Boromir and Faramir, his sister-sons.
And Theoden. And Eomer and Eowyn; through Theoden's mum Morwen of Lossarnach; Steelsheen as she was called by the Rohirrim. For she was also a kinswoman of Imrahil.
BTW - Tolkien didn't say there were only three unions of Men and Elves; he said Men and the Eldar, who are a specific branch of elf-kind. And no, I don't know why the male is always a Man and the female an elf - tho' I guess it might all come back to that woodland glade in Roos in Yorkshire, back in 1917 or 18, when Edith sang and danced for her returned soldier.
(This post was edited by geordie on Feb 16 2013, 11:47am)
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Felagund
Mithlond
Feb 16 2013, 12:03pm
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the Dol Amroth connection and other thoughts
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Yes, Mithrellas is right. She was a Silvan elf, part of Nimrodel's party that made its way to Edhellond on the Bay of Belfalas. She was separated from Nimrodel and ended up being taken in by the local lord, Imrazôr the Númenórean, with whom she had two children - Galador and Gilmith. Don't have the text to hand, but I recall too that the union wasn't a happy one - Mithrellas runs off one night.
Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth at the time of the War of the Ring, is a descendant of Galador. From there you have Legolas' remark about Elvish blood running in the veins of the House of Dol Amroth.
And then there's Turin. He seems to have held a certain attraction for Elven women - Nellas of Doriath and Finduilas of Nargothrond both fell for his sociopathic charms but, like Aegnor and Andreth, no Elda-Atan marriage came of this.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Eowyn3
Ossiriand
Feb 16 2013, 2:43pm
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It's been 10 years since I read UT and History of ME. I recall that the prince Imharil has Elven blood and in ROTK it is told how the blood of Numenor runs true on Denethor and Faramir, but I did not remember the details. Thank you guys for this great info. Keep it coming while I can go back and read the original texts again.
" He has just as much reason to go to war as you do. Why can he not fight for those he loves?"
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IdrilofGondolin
Nargothrond
Feb 16 2013, 5:36pm
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Which has probably been discussed a lot here. Tolkien had a high view of women in that he saw them as spiritual and different than men. Better in some ways. A short post like this can't do justice to this argument but Tolkien has an "unfallen" (as in Adam and Eve) view of women. All of his women characters are strong. Most of them are of a higher order than the men.
Manwe is the King of Arda but he is never more strong than when Varda is with him. And it is Varda who is revered and called upon by the elves. It's all very interesting.
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Eowyn3
Ossiriand
Feb 16 2013, 7:45pm
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And I like that about him anyway. Quite progressive for Tolkien's times I would think.
" He has just as much reason to go to war as you do. Why can he not fight for those he loves?"
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Feb 16 2013, 10:27pm
Post #9 of 24
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One is from the Unfinished Tales. I believe her name is Mithrellas, though I can't remember for sure. I totally don't remember the guy's name. I think it was a forced union. The other was actually just pining that never resulted in anything. And this one was actually an Elf man and a Human woman, Aegnor and Andreth. It's talked about somewhat in Morgoth's Ring, but not a lot. I'm sure others could give you much more information. I'm too tired at the moment to be of much help. Sorry
And CuriousG wrote:
I think the way that Elven blood got into the veins of the human nobility of Dol Amroth was from a human male and an elven female.
Both were the same elven lady--Mithrellas, a silvan elf of Lorien who was wed (it is said) to a Númenorean mariner, Imrazor of Belfalas. Mithrellas bore him two sons--one of which was Galador, the first Lord of Dol Amroth, then she slipped away and was seen no more (as J.E.A. Tyler writes in The Complete Tolkien Companion).
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Elthir
Hithlum
Feb 17 2013, 3:37am
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In the first edition the three unions were between 'High Elves and Men' -> revised by JRRT to (second edition) 'Eldar and Edain'.
As for Mithrellas, I think this information tends to be taken as a bit 'too factual' sometimes. Granted, can Legolas be wrong when he looks at Imrahil? One wouldn't think so, I agree. But that noted, if I recall correctly Tolkien is always careful to report this legend of Elvish blood as a legend, or a story; a legend within a legend I guess.
And Tolkien, in a late note, even adds that in some versions the lady was Nimrodel herself, although adding that this was less probable than Mithrellas. But even with Mithrellas, why does Tolkien construct the legend so as to have the Elf disappear after bearing children? Hmm.
Maybe it's a good way for a rumour to start, from a mannish perspective anyway, that the mother of these children was a 'fairy wife'... a tale that in time cannot be proven or disproven, as she is gone.
And the founding of Dol Amroth is another matter: according to an author's note to Cirion and Eorl (Unfinished Tales) the founding of Dol Amroth may go well back before Galador (son of Mithrellas according to the legend), with the name 'Dol Amroth' being applied much later.
This is a late note, but if I read the description correctly, in a very late note (December 1972 or later) Tolkien again refers to Nimrodel in any case, with: 'The legend of the prince's line was that one of the earliest fathers had wedded an Elf-maiden: in some versions it was indeed (evidently improbably) said to have been Nimrodel herself. In other tales, and more probably, it was one of Nimrodel's companions who was lost in the upper mountain glens.' which again, considering 'one of the earliest fathers' here, seems to imply that the line started nearer the drowning of Amroth instead of much earlier.
With respect to these accounts Christopher Tolkien notes: '... the two statements can only be reconciled on the supposition that the line of the Princes, and indeed the place of their dwelling, went back more than two thousand years before Galador's day, and that Galador was called the first Lord of Dol Amroth because it was not until his time (after the drowning of Amroth in the year 1981) that Dol Amroth was so named.'
Skipping over the further difficulty of an Adrahil mentioned here, Christopher Tolkien also notes that while his explanations to reconcile the seemingly variant accounts are not impossible, they seem less likely than there being two distinct and independent traditions of the origins of the Lords of Dol Amroth.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 17 2013, 3:46am)
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Feb 17 2013, 2:44pm
Post #12 of 24
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I was thinking of the magic part
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It seems that the princesses usually have a magical dimension to them, more often than the men do. "Fairy princess" is a common term, but "fairy prince" isn't.
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PhantomS
Nargothrond
Feb 17 2013, 5:57pm
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Imrahil replies to Legolas by saying that the Elves had walked in his lands a long ago; earlier he is shown with his knights, all looking alike with grey eyes and tall bearing; perhaps it's not a direct line of descent? He and his knights are portrayed as being very truly Numenorean, it might be that he is not the only one descended from Elves (arguably he's the first Dol Amroth man Legolas meets in the city) and more mixing was possible as Elves had lived there while Gondor flourished. Legolas doesn't say anything about Faramir or Boromir who both should have some kind of Elf-blood recognition through their mum, oddly enough.
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sador
Gondolin
Feb 17 2013, 6:23pm
Post #14 of 24
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There is also the story of one of the Tooks who had a fairy wife...
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That was, of course, absurd. 
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Eowyn3
Ossiriand
Feb 17 2013, 9:06pm
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Do you remember what book it was? And yes, that does sound absurd!
" He has just as much reason to go to war as you do. Why can he not fight for those he loves?"
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Eowyn3
Ossiriand
Feb 17 2013, 9:14pm
Post #16 of 24
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about Aegnor and Andreth. I'll have to pull out Morgoth's ring and re-read. With Mithrellas, we are still talking about Elf lady and Mortal man. But that is at least one.
" He has just as much reason to go to war as you do. Why can he not fight for those he loves?"
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Feb 17 2013, 10:43pm
Post #17 of 24
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Actually, it is in 'The Hobbit'
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Do you remember what book it was? And yes, that does sound absurd!
It is a story told of the Tooks.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Eowyn3
Ossiriand
Feb 17 2013, 11:18pm
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I never took that very serious,
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because of the way it's worded. To me it has always meant just Hobbit- gossip. It does say right there that it's absurd. Is it said in any other Tolkien work in a more serious way?
" He has just as much reason to go to war as you do. Why can he not fight for those he loves?"
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Feb 17 2013, 11:20pm
Post #19 of 24
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Well, not so much a story really.
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What Tolkien wrote was this - 'It had always been said that long ago one or other of the Tooks had married into a fairy family (the less friemdly said a goblin family)...'
(ch.1, An Unexpected Party)
That was in the 1st and 2nd editions; Tolkien dropped the 'goblin' part later.
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Eowyn3
Ossiriand
Feb 17 2013, 11:36pm
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I have 3 copies of The Hobbit (don't ask why), but my oldest copy is a 4th edition hardcover from 1978. I guess the wording is a little different. It does not say anything about goblin and it makes the whole thing sound very much like an absurd Hobbit-gossip.
On my version it says-"It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife. That was of course, absurd, but certainly there was something not entirely hobbitlike about them...
" He has just as much reason to go to war as you do. Why can he not fight for those he loves?"
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Eowyn3
Ossiriand
Feb 18 2013, 12:31am
Post #22 of 24
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Very impressive and well researched article. I hope others will read it too.
" He has just as much reason to go to war as you do. Why can he not fight for those he loves?"
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sador
Gondolin
Feb 18 2013, 4:22am
Post #23 of 24
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ElendilTheShort
Mithlond
Feb 21 2013, 8:21am
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any married man knows that his wife is his better half.
Tolkien just elevated this further with his elven/human pairings.
Another elfy girl that I do not think has been mentioned is Finduilas and her affection for Turin. If he had been sensible and properly responded to her attention much tragedy would have been averted.
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