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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 4 2007, 1:02am
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Chapter 7: In the House of Tom B--Goldberry
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"In a chair, at the far side of the room facing the outer door, sat a woman. Her long yellow hair rippled down her shoulders; her gown was green, green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew; and her belt was of gold, shaped like a chain of flag-lilies set with the pale-blue eyes of forget-me-nots. About her feel in wide vessels of green and brown earthenware, white water-lilies were floating, so that she seemed to be enthroned in the midst of a pool.
‘Enter, good guests!’ she said, and as she spoke they knew that it was her clear voice they had heard singing. They came a few timid steps further into the room, and began to bow low, feeling strangely surprised and awkward, like folk that, knocking at a cottage door to beg for a drink of water, have been answered by a fair young elf-queen clad in living flowers. But before they could say anything, she sprang lightly up and over the lily-bowls, and ran laughing towards them; and as she ran her gown rustled softly like the wind in the flowering borders of a river."
In Hammond and Scull's LOTR Reader's Companion, they quote the following from an essay by Deirdre Greene ("Higher Arguments: Tolkien and the Tradition of Vision, Epic and Prophecy"):
"Frodo's first sight of Goldberry in the house of Tom Bombadil tells the reader a great deal about the woman and, by association, her mate....The dwelling has low roofs, indicating simple humility; it is filled with light, suggesting spiritual good; the furnishings and the candles are of natural materials, connoting rural closeness to nature. Goldberry's chair, far opposite the door, suggests a throne in a reception hall. Her yellow hair suggests innocence and goodness; it is yellow rather than gold, emphasizing her unassuming nature. Her gown associates her with lush, young vegetation. Her belt is the gold of purity and sovereignty, but it celebrates in its floral design the eternal, cyclical triumph of nature; she is encircled by water and flowers, symbols of purity and fertility. As a whole, the image asserts Goldberry as a queen or a local deity, whose power derives from nature..."
Until I read this excerpt, it hadn't occurred to me that one of the reasons Goldberry seems like a queen is her "throne", sitting in a strategically placed part of the house to be seen upon entrance to the "hall". The hobbits begin bowing right away!
1) Comments on this interpretation? Do you agree that "the image asserts Goldberry as a queen or local deity" [my emphasis/a.s.]
Hammond and Scull further quote a letter from Tolkien: "In June 1958 Tolkien wrote to Forrest J. Ackerman that in The Lord of the Rings 'we are...in real river-lands in autumn. Goldberry represents the actual seasonal changes in such lands' (Letters p. 272)
2) What does Tolkien mean by Goldberry "representing" actual seasonal changes?
"‘Come dear folk!’ she said, taking Frodo by the hand. ‘Laugh and be merry! I am Goldberry, daughter of the River.’ Then lightly she passed them and closing the door she turned her back to it, with her white arms spread out across it. ‘Let us shut out the night!’ she said. ‘For you are still afraid, perhaps, of mist and tree-shadows and deep water, and untame things. Fear nothing! For tonight you are under the roof of Tom Bombadil.’"
3) When she closes the door, turns her back, and spreads her arms across it, is she just being dramatic? Or is she casting a spell of some kind?
4) Is there a significance to the fact that she speaks to all the hobbits, but takes Frodo by the hand?
"She passed out of the room with a glimmer and a rustle. The sound of her footsteps was like a stream falling gently away downhill over cool stones in the quiet of night."
and
"Water dripped down from the thatched eaves above. Before they had finished breakfast the clouds had
joined into an unbroken roof, and a straight grey rain came softly and steadily down. Behind its deep curtain the Forest was completely veiled. As they looked out of the window there came falling gently as if it was flowing down the rain out of the sky, the clear voice of Goldberry singing up above them. They could hear few words, but it seemed plain to them that the song was a rain-song, as sweet as showers on dry hills, that told the tale of a river from the spring in the highlands to the Sea far below."
5) Goldberry is obviously associated with water, both her self (she is the "daughter of the River") and her voice and movements, which sound like water. Is Goldberry "real"? Where is she when the hobbits hear the rain-song?
tomorrow: Tom, Alone, Himself
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 4 2007, 2:23am
Post #2 of 35
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Do you agree that "the image asserts Goldberry as a queen or local deity" [my emphasis/a.s.]
Yes.
2) What does Tolkien mean by Goldberry "representing" actual seasonal changes?
As you note, Goldberry's "washing day" is an all-day rain, near the change in seasons from Summer to Fall. In "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil," Goldberry was a water nymph, but here Tolkien seems to have elevated her status to that of a local nature goddess. Of course in Tolkien's mythos all these local spirits are part of a strict heirarchy, and are more like angels than gods. So perhaps we could consider Goldberry the hobbits' motherly guardian angel, and Bombadil their fatherly guardian angel.
3) When she closes the door, turns her back, and spreads her arms across it, is she just being dramatic? Or is she casting a spell of some kind?
I seriously doubt she needs to cast a spell to keep the Old Forest out of Bombadil's house. So I would say she is being dramatic.
4) Is there a significance to the fact that she speaks to all the hobbits, but takes Frodo by the hand?
I wouldn't be surprised if there was, but we don't know.
5) Is Goldberry "real"? Where is she when the hobbits hear the rain-song?
She's as real as rain. Where is she? Up above them, I suppose, singing. Maybe she's on the roof, or maybe she's joined the clouds. It's hard to tell.
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Owlyross
Nargothrond
Dec 4 2007, 5:11pm
Post #3 of 35
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Sounding like a broken record, but
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1) Comments on this interpretation? Do you agree that "the image asserts Goldberry as a queen or local deity" [my emphasis/a.s.]
She's a spirit. The spirit of the weather, the air... Again, I find it impossible to look at this chapter/s without viewing it through a slightly pagan (Pagan in its meaning of "of the countryside") filter, or at least pre-Christian... She is a goddess, and this old goddess, much as Tom is, is restricted to this small and decreasing in size area.
2) What does Tolkien mean by Goldberry "representing" actual seasonal changes?
As in she is the Autumn showers/storms. Much like we're having here in the UK right now. A cleansing of the Earth, which is her purpose. She is the April showers, as much as she is the winter snows.
3) When she closes the door, turns her back, and spreads her arms across it, is she just being dramatic? Or is she casting a spell of some kind?
She could well be, although I would imagine Tom has more power over the house.
4) Is there a significance to the fact that she speaks to all the hobbits, but takes Frodo by the hand?
Possibly, she could be his protector, the female characters seem to protect Frodo, Galadriel certainly takes him on as a special case, and Arwen passes his place on the ship to him... Eowyn doesn't, but she looks after Merry.
5) Goldberry is obviously associated with water, both her self (she is the "daughter of the River") and her voice and movements, which sound like water. Is Goldberry "real"? Where is she when the hobbits hear the rain-song?
She is the rain. Much as Tom is the country and the land. What the Hobbits are seeing is a manifestation which they can understand. I see them both as older than religion, older than the peoples of Middle Earth, they are spirits of the land and water, and what power they have left is in the Old Forest and the house.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)
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weaver
Gondolin
Dec 4 2007, 6:18pm
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I like those water-lilies at her feet...
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It's those pools of water around here, with the lilies in them that create the sort of "queenly" image of her to me -- Tolkien even uses the word "enthroned" in his description here.
I know lillies are an Easter flower, associated with the Resurrection. I am not sure if there is a different symbolism to water lillies than regular lillies. But if Goldberry represents seasonal changes, then the "rebirth" associations with lillies make sense for her, and water is an obvious element to bring in given her "River daughter" status.
Tolkien would probably not approve, but I tend to connect the Tarot Card image of the Queen of Cups with Goldberry as well -- on some decks, I know, she's shown on a throne surrounded by water.
Weaver
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Kimi
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Dec 4 2007, 8:54pm
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is its scientific name. The "Nymphaea" invokes water nymphs, which goes well with Goldberry.
The white water lily is often seen as a symbol of purity and chastity. In fact it's said to have anaphrodisiac properties, but I don't think I'll take that any further :-)
  
Promises to Keep: a novel set in 19th Century New Zealand.
The Passing of Mistress Rose
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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weaver
Gondolin
Dec 4 2007, 9:03pm
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well, that would explain why Tom is always singing..../
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Weaver
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Penthe
Mithlond
Dec 5 2007, 12:17am
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I love Goldberry, even though she is as utterly unfitted for the rest of Middle-Earth as Tom is. Like Cate Blanchett she has married a man who is not as handsome as she, but has other wonderful qualities!
Now, to be a little more serious.
Goldberry certainly has a kind of sovereignty over water in the areas where Tom is master. One of the wonderful things about the pair of them is that they both have real power, and power that shapes them as entities or people, but not power that demands ritual, domination of others or any other kind of structure. They are much more like hobbits or Bree people in this respect than they are like any other powerful characters in the story. They have sovereignty without control of other entities. So I am not sure that Goldberry is, in fact, queen-like or goddess-like. Rather, she is like a person completely at peace with herself and her environment. This gives her grace.
I think Goldberry represents seasonal changes through this as well - because she is part of her environment without seeking to control it, she alters as it alters, and it alters as she alters. The lilies at her feet represent this externally, but we don't see enough of her to see how she changes in herself. And, of course, we only see what the hobbits see. What Gandalf or Galadriel might see could be rather different.
With regards to her closing the door I think that the use of 'untame' to describe the things outside is pretty interesting. Goldberry and Tom are untame things, I suspect, except that they enjoy a quiet domestic life as well. They don't seek to tame or domesticate others things, though, so they do not need to be tame themselves. However, their own courtesy and grace shows them that the hobbits need to be protected from untame things, and Tom and Goldberry's own peaceful existence would be disturbed by the constant intrusion of other untame things in the house as well. It's like dirt, wonderful in the ground, but not so good on the carpet. Closing the door symbolises the keeping out of the untame things, but it's both Tom's and Goldberry's will that keeps them out of the house and garden. I don't think it requires magic or spells, though. It's more that Tom and Goldberry let their environment reflect their wills, as their wills reflect the environment. They themselves are liminal creatures in that sense.
I quite like cheese, you know.
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Kimi
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Dec 5 2007, 1:16am
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if they were songs of longing :-)
"Anaphrodisiac" is the opposite of aphrodisiac.
Promises to Keep: a novel set in 19th Century New Zealand.
The Passing of Mistress Rose
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 5 2007, 1:19am
Post #9 of 35
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5) Goldberry is obviously associated with water, both her self (she is the "daughter of the River") and her voice and movements, which sound like water. Is Goldberry "real"? Where is she when the hobbits hear the rain-song?
She is the rain.
I agree with you, and in fact I remember talking about this the last time we had the chapter discussions (and in fact, I should have attributed the question to Nerdanel, I think!! it was a good question!):
4. Goldberry’s voice is coming from “up above them.” Where is she?
She is singing in the rain. I mean, IN the rain. She is rain.
Can everyone see Goldberry (and Tom) if they are "spirits of the land and water"? If not, who can?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 5 2007, 1:21am
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well, his songs are certainly anaphrodisiac, to me, but
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Goldberry seems to like them!
It just goes to show that even goddesses can have bad taste, I guess!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
Dec 5 2007, 1:33am
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Which reminds me of a discussion that
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Kimi and I had here probably more than five years ago. She seems to be of the opinion that Tom and Goldberry's marriage was quite passionate. I always found Tom too goofy to imagine him being quite the lover.
~~~~~~~~
Formerly known as GaladrielTX
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weaver
Gondolin
Dec 5 2007, 1:38am
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Ha! That's what I get for skimming big words like that!
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Given this definition, maybe Tom needed to "turn off" Goldberry for the winter. If she really does represent the changing seasons, that actually sort of makes sense....
Weaver
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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 5 2007, 1:52am
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not their magic, their reality?
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Well, that's poorly worded but I can't think too much more about Goldberry and Tom tonight, I'm starting to get a headache. Starting to think in short declarative sentences with lots of exclamation points!! A sure symptom of Tom overload!
But anyway, I wanted to comment on this part of your post:
Closing the door symbolises the keeping out of the untame things, but it's both Tom's and Goldberry's will that keeps them out of the house and garden. I don't think it requires magic or spells, though. It's more that Tom and Goldberry let their environment reflect their wills, as their wills reflect the environment. They themselves are liminal creatures in that sense.
So let's say that Tom and Goldberry somehow ARE Nature (however we want to think of that, in our finite brains). This explains their mastery of untame things like the wild animals outside the door. They don't need magic; after all, Nature sets its own limits on the wild animals of the forest, who go and come according to the laws of Nature. It's only men who are the destroyers, hackers, usurpers, etc.
Nature and its natural laws have nothing to fear from the wild animals outside the door. Nature is in charge. "The Master", so to speak.
What's a "liminal creature"?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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Penthe
Mithlond
Dec 5 2007, 2:07am
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A liminal creature is the result of a poorly worded sentence. I meant that I think they occupy a space between 'Nature' as a capital N concept, and a domesticated space. They inhabit the threshold between those two places. But I think that they 'naturally', for want of a better word right now, do this, rather than attempting to domesticate nature themselves.
They represent nature and the natural order of things, but they are not entirely of it. Their wills can affect nature, but generally their will is to do as woud happen anyway (but not entirely). It's this small space of difference that allows them to keep the untamed things out, despite the fact that I think neither Tom or Goldberry is really tame in the sense that hobbits might think of the word. The Shire is a tamed space, inhabited by a people who think of themselves as a tamed people (although it proves later that they need not be all the time). Tom and Goldberry, as you say, are more like wild creatures in the forest. They have their own desires, and the ability to act to produce change, but generally their desires accord with the natural environment. Compared to hobbits or real life humans, at any rate.
I quite like cheese, you know.
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Penthe
Mithlond
Dec 5 2007, 3:56am
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That's no way to treat a lady.
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He might find, come spring, the on switch has been permanently disabled.
I quite like cheese, you know.
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weaver
Gondolin
Dec 5 2007, 4:08am
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Not this Spring, Tom, I have a watershed-ache.../
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Weaver
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Dec 5 2007, 4:11am
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what forms Tom (and Goldberry) would take on! 
I assume that his "goofy" manner is for the Hobbits' benefit: his attempt at creating a character which would be akin to them, and put them at ease. Goldberry, also, uses a form which she believes the Hobbits would find pleasing.
Goldberry is described as a "woman" - but I wonder how tall she is, for her to easily take Frodo's hand, and for her to stand up beneath the "low" ceiling? Is she Tom's height?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 5 2007, 5:03am
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Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Dec 5 2007, 6:39am
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I was at a lecture last year given by an old-fashioned philologist who was speaking on the possible Celtic origins of place-names in the British Isles, and one of his points that struck me was that there is evidence from the names themselves that the original Celts believed that rivers were actually goddesses (not just inhabited by water-nymphs etc as in Roman traditon). He matched up river names with names of ancient goddesses, but I'm afraid I don't remember the details. (Another detail that struck me was his suggestion that the first syllable of the word 'brigand' is the same as the word 'bree', meaning hill. I thought NEB might like to know that, but I've never found a relevant place to mention it!)
Anyway, the river-goddess idea made me think of Goldberry. The people the philologist was referring to are the ancestors of the indigenous people of Britain before the Romans came, about whom very little is known. I like the thought that Tolkien might have made Tom B the last survival of this ancient people, the embodiment of England before it changed for ever, and his wife the river goddess of that people. In a vague history-repeating-itself sort of way, I like to imagine the Elves and Numenorians as Romans - a great and knowledgeable people who come in, organise things, build great works and then withdraw, leaving their ruins, and the echo of their knowledge, behind them.
Just a thought, quite unprovable. But I find it an interesting way of imagining the 'ancient history' of Middle-earth, and I enjoyed listening to an old-fashioned philologist (he was hard to follow, as he read from a prepared text, and unlike most of the lecturers in the series used no slides or illustrations) and wondering if this is what it was like listening to Tolkien back in the day!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Dec 5 2007, 2:20pm
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Nymph Lake is one of my favorite lakes in Rocky Mountain National Park. It's covered with water lilies (gold, not white). The lake was apparently named for the larval stage of the dragonfly or some such critter, but it's still a nice name.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Letters from the Goddess
Firithyleleni
 
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Dec 5 2007, 2:27pm
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Goofy guys can be great lovers
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and mine has always reminded me of Tom Bombadil:
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Letters from the Goddess
Firithyleleni
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Riel
Lindon
Dec 5 2007, 3:50pm
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That's a very nice picture, Dora!
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I used to live in Estes Park, so I went to Rocky Mountain National Park all the time. it takes me back...hehe
"Even the smallest person can change the course of the future."
~Galadriel
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Dec 5 2007, 6:28pm
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And it's nice to meet you. Maybe our paths crossed up there a time or two and we didn't realize it :-)
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Letters from the Goddess
Firithyleleni
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 5 2007, 7:19pm
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Insect larvae are called nymphs
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More specifically, nymphs are larvae of non-pupating insects (which includes dragonflies, lacewings, cockroaches, true bugs, grasshoppers and crickets, leaf-hoppers and their cousins, etc.). The larvae of pupating insects (beetles, flies, butterflies and moths, wasps, etc.) are not called nymphs.
How high is that photo? It looks like it's in the lodgepole pine zone, given the density of the trees and the common juniper in the lower right.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Dec 5 2007, 9:01pm
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Yep, lodgepole pine and blue spruce are probably the most common trees, as well as aspens. And a few junipers, as you noted.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Letters from the Goddess
Firithyleleni
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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