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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Protesting in advance to the notion of Galadriel carrying Gandalf like a babe in arms, as though she were an angel of mercy.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 7:06am

Post #1 of 77 (1476 views)
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Protesting in advance to the notion of Galadriel carrying Gandalf like a babe in arms, as though she were an angel of mercy. Can't Post

HE is the Angel in the equation! I understand he is in a limited, incarnate form, but Peter and company seem to be climbing aboard the overboard express here.
They need not explicitly inform the audience of Gandalf's Angelic origins and hidden nature, but nor should they be so heavily implying that he is inferior to other beings in Middle-Earth.

I love Galadriel, and I love that much her her power and mystique are being portrayed in these films. But she should not be seen to come across with the same mystery and power to Maiar, temporarily limited and incarnate though they be, that she conveys to the likes of Frodo, Aragorn or even Sindarin Elves. What is more, I wouldn't mind her being portrayed as a semi-angelic saviour to the likes of Aragorn or Thorin (misplaced as such a scene might be), but to Gandalf?? It's a bridge to far, if not handled VERY carefully (and Sir Peter is not always sufficiently careful in these matters).

Gandalf and the other Wizards are emmisaries of Eru and of The Valar, NOT of The High Elves. They are not answerable to Galadriel, nor do they require her to affirm whether or not they are making proper decisions (though certainly they would exchange counsel with her), and while they certainly could achieve more combining their powers with her own than they could independantly, there is little to nothing (save perhaps in some moments of foresight) that she can achieve for them through her powers that they cannot manage with their own powers. Those of you familliar with the movie Willow will understand the meaning when I say that Galadriel is NOT to Gandalf, what the Fairy Queen Cherlindrea is to The High Aldwin of Willow's community, or to the sorceress Fin Raizel. Whatever appearances may suggest, Gandalf is not some human magician who has gained the favour and trust of The Elves and is now allowed into their inner circle or tasked with aiding them in protecting Middle-Earth. And while we here, all (or largely) learned with lore, might say, "well, of course, everyone knows that is not the case," the truth is not everyone knows. The layperson in the audience knows nothing about the distant histories and true natures of some of these characters. Thus, presenting Gandalf as subordinate to Galadriel or as essentially less capable than her presents a fundementally flawed understanding of these characters, and of the dynamic between them, and does a disservice to the character of Gandalf.

I am not going to get into the argument of "who is more powerful," the incarnate Gandalf or Galadriel. Gandalf The White is, explicitly by his and Tolkien's observation, the most powerful being in Middle-Earth aside from Sauron himself. But who is marginally mightiest between Gandalf The Gray, Galadriel, The Balrog and Alatar. . .there are strong arguments to be made, but I have no interest in derailing this thread with them. What does bear stating, and what cannot be reasonably argued, is that Galadriel would not have any hope of walking into a fight with Durin's Bane and defeating him without working up a terrible sweat. She would likely not fare any better than Gandalf, Glorfindel, Feanor and Ecthellion. And hence my concerns about the report of her carrying Gandalf out of a conflict (doubtless in the assault on Dol Guldur). . . IF it is handled in such a way that she herself is clearly seen to be damaged/injured and imperiled, and to have remained concious during the battle mainly due to chance, rather than to superior skill and power, then it could work. But if she comes off looking like Legolas and Gandalf like Pippin, or if she comes floating in, glowing and unscathed, and picks up her "poor", overwhelmed "little helper" . . .. FrownMad oh hell no FrownMad.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


lurtz2010
Rohan

Jan 11 2013, 7:27am

Post #2 of 77 (745 views)
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lol what makes you think this will happen? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 7:50am

Post #3 of 77 (787 views)
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It was reported in an EW article. There was a link to it in an earlier post on this board. [In reply to] Can't Post

Talk of Gandalf being in a bad spot and being carried out by Galadriel. McKellan even refferences the dummy-double (easier for Cate to lift), whom they dubbed "Michael Gambon." The joke is funny on several levels. . . but the notion of such a scene is not a damned bit funny, no not at all. FrownFrownFrown

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Elutherian
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 8:19am

Post #4 of 77 (731 views)
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I love the idea... [In reply to] Can't Post

...But I've never claimed to be a purist.

The Grey Pilgrim, they once called me. Three hundred lives of men I walked this earth, and now I have no time...


imin
Valinor


Jan 11 2013, 8:29am

Post #5 of 77 (731 views)
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Do we know the circumstances of how he ends up over her shoulder? [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean maybe they were fighting and Gandalf went ahead - being a wizard after all and Galadriel being wise but more a councillor than a warrior - after a period of time he has not come back and she feels forced to go look for him, finds him incapacitated for whatever reason and helps him, the cause of his injury has fled.

This would work i think in terms of - shows she is caring and brave but is not the ultimate xena-warrior elf who is better than Gandalf. It would also perhaps let the audience see that Gandalf is indeed 'stronger' than Galadriel is but what he was facing was his match - Sauron.

Or perhaps they are just wanting young girls who are watching the movie to feel they have a role model - the perfect woman - kind, wise, brave, beautiful, strong etc.

What Phillipa said makes me think it is more the second idea which is fine so long as they dont change the dynamic of their relationship which i think can be maintained if they play it out like something along the lines i said above.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jan 11 2013, 8:33am

Post #6 of 77 (712 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I agree with your sentiment.

If it comes to pass (get it?), I blame the female writers for emasculating Gandalf to suit their agenda of "feminine energy" at the expense of their lip services for their love and intimate knowledge of the Middle Earth lore. If it comes to pass. Otherwise - nevermind. You would think Tauriel is enough for them.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Jan 11 2013, 8:35am)


Rolfina
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 8:33am

Post #7 of 77 (702 views)
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I can certainly see Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

being unconscious and carried around by someone. I just don't see that someone being Galadriel. I try to conjure a mental image, and I just can't.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jan 11 2013, 8:45am

Post #8 of 77 (651 views)
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Faaaar out [In reply to] Can't Post

I really hope this doesn't happen but if it did then by canon she could as she was 6'4" (at least) and a match for the athletes of the Noldor in their youth, and Gandalf was only about 5'6" stooped over as he was, so maybe 5'8" standing straight up.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 8:48am

Post #9 of 77 (745 views)
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That has been a worry since I heard Phillipa comment on Galadriel [In reply to] Can't Post

being "the most powerful being in Middle-Earth at the time,". . . Really . . .even putting aside Gandalf, Saruman AND Bombadil, what of Sauron and The Balrog? Even as the necromancer it seems unlikely that Galadriel, without the council, would singlehandedly overthrow him by the time of The hobbit.

Galadriel is powerful, and I like her being showcased as such, but I would hate for them to go overboard, in pursuit of good intentions for female role models and "girl power, and end up diminishing The Istari, and subsequently Sauron and The Balrog, in service of this. People shouldn't come away thinking, "Boy, if Galadriel had been there in Moria, everything would have been fine. . . " or, "Why didn't they just send her to defeat Sauron. . . again!"

In Reply To
I think I agree with your sentiment.

If it comes to pass (get it?), I blame the female writers for emasculating Gandalf to suit their agenda of "feminine energy" at the expense of their lip services for their love and intimate knowledge of the Middle Earth lore. If it comes to pass. Otherwise - nevermind. You would think Tauriel is enough for them.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 8:51am

Post #10 of 77 (666 views)
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I am inclined to agree with you here. [In reply to] Can't Post

My issue is not her being able to carry him, as I have no doubt she would certainly be strong enough to easily lift a man sized person. . . it is with the circumstances surrounding it. If they are portrayed as having been in the same fight, but her coming out relatively unscathed while he is not senseless and has to be rescued by her OR, if he is shown going and catching a beating, but then she shows up and floats in, kicks everyone's ass, and carries him out as a firefighter might, then it is a travesty.

In Reply To
I mean maybe they were fighting and Gandalf went ahead - being a wizard after all and Galadriel being wise but more a councillor than a warrior - after a period of time he has not come back and she feels forced to go look for him, finds him incapacitated for whatever reason and helps him, the cause of his injury has fled.

This would work i think in terms of - shows she is caring and brave but is not the ultimate xena-warrior elf who is better than Gandalf. It would also perhaps let the audience see that Gandalf is indeed 'stronger' than Galadriel is but what he was facing was his match - Sauron.

Or perhaps they are just wanting young girls who are watching the movie to feel they have a role model - the perfect woman - kind, wise, brave, beautiful, strong etc.

What Phillipa said makes me think it is more the second idea which is fine so long as they dont change the dynamic of their relationship which i think can be maintained if they play it out like something along the lines i said above.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Jan 11 2013, 8:52am)


Mooseboy018
Gondor


Jan 11 2013, 8:53am

Post #11 of 77 (651 views)
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I'd accept it on one condition. [In reply to] Can't Post

If Galadriel was replaced in that scene with Tom Bombadil.

Imagine... Gandalf is weakened by Sauron, and it looks like he's met his match. But right before Sauron can deal the final blow, Tom Bombadil swoops in out of nowhere (kicks Sauron in the shin) and carries Gandalf to safety.

I'm completely serious. That would be the best thing to happen ever.Laugh


imin
Valinor


Jan 11 2013, 8:59am

Post #12 of 77 (643 views)
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Yeah i wouldnt like it [In reply to] Can't Post

If the situation you describe happens - though i cant see them filming that as it just seems wrong.

but then things like this happen in commercials/adverts all the time - the guy being a complete idiot and the woman completely in control and sorts him out as he is basically a child - perhaps Phillipa wants to make Gandalf and Galadriel into that kind of relationship?

I cant see it happening and i would be annoyed if it did like you would be - the fact we dont know anything about how it will happen though means we are just worrying for no reason - it could happen something like i said in my original post - in which case, i wouldnt have a problem with it.


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 11 2013, 9:03am

Post #13 of 77 (651 views)
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I'll wait to see how the scene plays out [In reply to] Can't Post

It could be a really beautiful scene (or it might not). Maybe the quote has been taken out of context on the EW website. It wouldn't be the first time!

Perhaps it will never make it into the film, and will become part of the scrapped XenaGaladriel plot.


Scourge of the Stoors
Rivendell

Jan 11 2013, 9:37am

Post #14 of 77 (661 views)
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Galadriel was hardcore in the Silmarillion [In reply to] Can't Post

She did some serious physical stuff. And I don't see it's emasculating Gandalf to have him being carried by a woman. Maybe it it were John McClane or Rambo, but Gandalf isn't a particularly masculine character to begin with.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jan 11 2013, 11:05am

Post #15 of 77 (617 views)
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Actually, nowhere in the SIL is there any detail of exactly what Galadriel did that was "hardcore"... [In reply to] Can't Post

In the SIL it says she did not participate in the First Kinslaying of the Teleri at Aqualonde... although the UT version of her early history has her living at Alqualonde and fighting against her Noldo cousins to defend her close kin. In the Second Age, When the going got rough in Eregion she departed to Lothlorien via Moria, leaving Celeborn to stay and fight with Elrond. We have no real idea of her warrior capabilities or indeed powers except in the dying stages of the War of the Ring when she "threw down the walls of Dol Guldur and laid bare its pits."


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort






dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 12:32pm

Post #16 of 77 (566 views)
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Wait and see.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Like all the other 'Oh no, are they going to....' panics we've had around here, the actual scene in the film will probably turn out just fine. Even in the books, Galadriel is Gandalf's support network. Remember in The Two Towers, she is the one who sends Gwaihir to look for Gandalf after his fall in Moria and bring him to Lorien - and it's with her that "Healing I found, and I was clothed in white. Counsel I gave and counsel took...' So it doesn't seem so far-fetched to me that she should help him at Dol Guldur. Depends how they do it, of course, but we have almost a year to wait to find that out.

You may be protesting against something they have no intention of doing.


RalphDamiani
Rivendell

Jan 11 2013, 12:37pm

Post #17 of 77 (567 views)
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It's impossible that Galadriel would carry Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

That's what she married Celeborn for. Or do you think it was actually Galadriel who spent her time behind the loom weaving cloaks?

Celeborn, the Wise, didn't even get invitations for the holidays in Rivendell. In PJ's universe, during the overthrow of Dol Guldur, attentive viewers will notice he was given the valuable mission of polishing silverware and sweeping golden leaves off a certain penthouse.


(This post was edited by RalphDamiani on Jan 11 2013, 12:38pm)


Kullervo
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 1:00pm

Post #18 of 77 (556 views)
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I'm not worried [In reply to] Can't Post

There are several scenarios in where a person of lesser power could be saving the person with the greater power in a field of battle. It does not mean that the persson doing the saving is absolutely the more powerful one to the person being saved. Battles are chaotic and situations arise where balances of power are temporarely shifted. There are almost endless ways in wich this could be handled, all having a slightly different balance.

I think Galadriel saving Gandalf actually has a lot of potential for being a very beautiful and emotionally powerful scene, without reducing Gandalf into a mere magician. Or, it could be completely ridiculous. We have no proof either way, so we have no reason to be worried. I'll calmly, and hopefully, wait and see.


Arannir
Valinor

Jan 11 2013, 1:05pm

Post #19 of 77 (518 views)
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100% Agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post

IMHO not even close to a Xena-Arwen-moment. Quite the opposite, actually, if done nicely.


I am soooo looking for to this "battle"... and even more to the moment the White Council realizes "it is Sauron".

I am glad now they changed the timeline here and we get to see them realizing it. I hope for very emotional and memory-heavy reactions especially by Galadriel and Elrond.

A battle in which they maybe merely push him out of Dol Guldur but have to realize he is rising again, in which they are pushed to the limit of their own power (and life!) is quite a thing, actually. And something totally different to what we ever saw before in movie-ME.


Galadriel's power status is quite ambiguous anyway, especially in the books.


(This post was edited by Arannir on Jan 11 2013, 1:12pm)


dubulous
Rohan

Jan 11 2013, 1:21pm

Post #20 of 77 (511 views)
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I don't get what there is to be upset about [In reply to] Can't Post

One little paragraph tells us absolutely nothing. We don't know anything about the context and we don't know if this will even happen in the movie. A lot of things get filmed that end up playing no part at all in the movie.

Even if this does happen though, I find the idea nothing but intriguing. Whether it'll work depends on how it's carried out of course but the concept certainly has potential in my opinion. Galadriel was called Nerwen for a reason. If Gandalf finds himself in a situation where he needs to be carried (because powerful as he may be, he's not invincible), there is no reason why Galadriel wouldn't have the strength to carry him as much as anyone else, and the fact that she is a woman shouldn't make it a problem when she's been described as being "strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth".


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 1:24pm

Post #21 of 77 (531 views)
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Ridiculous scene [In reply to] Can't Post

if she comes floating in, glowing and unscathed, and picks up her "poor", overwhelmed "little helper"

Search your feelings. You know it to be true.

This is extremely disappointing.


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 1:33pm

Post #22 of 77 (528 views)
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Hundred facepalms [In reply to] Can't Post

Still going on about this? Seriously. You seem to have cooked up in your mind the most bizzare scenarios with no basis on reality. And somehow imagined that Gandalf is an unbeatable, infallible badass while at it. Wait until you actually see the scene instead of inventing it, before you start with the complaints.


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 1:40pm

Post #23 of 77 (501 views)
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The scene is completely made up by PJ [In reply to] Can't Post

So it's not going to please everyone. I personally am disgusted by the whole thing, but I guess we'll just see what happens.

It's similar to people being angry when they heard about the bunny sled, and then it appeared and changed few minds. It's one of those made up scenes that not everyone will agree on, and the OP has the right to be mad about it.


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 1:55pm

Post #24 of 77 (489 views)
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*sigh* [In reply to] Can't Post

To make an entire overblown thread about a minor detail mentioned in passing in a brief interview without any kind of context or details is a ridiculous overreaction, no matter how you put it. Wait to at least see a scene in a trailer to get mad about it. Or better yet, see the actual film. The justifications for the complaint are based on made-up details that have not been stated or confirmed anywhere. I have my complaints about the AUJ. I made them after I saw the film instead of jumping to conclusions 11 months before its release. You're worried about the detail, OK, it was made absolutely clear in the thread describing the interview, the point is made. Opening an entirely new thread to officially declare a protest against this tidbit is absurd.


Beren0nehanded
Bree


Jan 11 2013, 2:00pm

Post #25 of 77 (460 views)
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Thank you Lightice! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Still going on about this? Seriously. You seem to have cooked up in your mind the most bizzare scenarios with no basis on reality. And somehow imagined that Gandalf is an unbeatable, infallible badass while at it. Wait until you actually see the scene instead of inventing it, before you start with the complaints.


For bringing some sense into this discussion! Wink

Don't be hasty.

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