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Loresilme
Doriath
Jan 10 2013, 10:45pm
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A physical manifestation of dragon sickness?
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Richard Armitage has hinted in several interviews that Thorin is going to take a dark turn indeed, and that we're going to "hate" him by the end.
In this Movieline interview, he talks about Thror and also something he refers to as the physical effects of dragon sickness, although I'm not quite sure from his remarks below whether he means we may see this manifestation in Thror in the third film (in flashback) or in Thorin. Full interview here. Excerpts below:
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Do you see that as his over-arching narrative throughout the film? [The renunciation of] greed? Or revenge?
It's more about — yes, he was bequeathed a revenge upon Azog for his grandfather's beheading. He also has to take his people back to the mountain to reclaim the gold that was taken from them in this horrific Holocaust whereby the dragon came and decimated his people. It's not altruistic. It has to be personal and he wants to be King Under the Mountain. That means taking back the gold. The greed aspect is something that — as he gets closer to the mountain, it's like the greed draws him and the gold corrupts him.
Certainly in the novel, as you speak of getting close to the mountain in physical distance, he also gets closer somehow to the character of Smaug.
I think he is probably corrupted by the gold as Smaug was fattened by it. But that's the aspect of Thorin's character that he's ashamed of. He knows it exists. It's like a line that runs through his family of greed. And when they come in contact with gold it corrupts them. It happened to his grandfather. I always imagined that Thorin was probably closer to [his grandfather] Thror than he was to [his father] Thrain. I think that Thror hid himself away when he got the dragon sickness, and Thorin kind of kept him behind closed doors and would nurse him through his sickness. Kept the door closed so no one ever saw the king. I think he witnessed the physical effects of that. So when we get into film III, you'll see the manifestation of what that is.
Physically?
A physical sense. It's not just the desire for greed. I saw it as a physical ailment. If [director] Pete [Jackson] decides to use that.
___________________
Thoughts?
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Rane
Nevrast
Jan 10 2013, 11:01pm
Post #2 of 16
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Shaking hands? Bags under the eyes?
I just hope he doesn't turn into a Gollumesque like creature (I doubt that will happen anyway).
We may see some changes in makeup and hair. Someone on this board mentioned that Thorin's hairline receded after Smaug's attack, so I think it will be more in that department than anything.
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ShireHorse
Nargothrond
Jan 10 2013, 11:04pm
Post #3 of 16
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Thanks for finding this, Loresilme!
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I've been discussing this on another thread but I couldn't remember where I saw it.
Well, from what RA says, it would seem that he's going in there all guns blazing as far as the greed thing is concerned. However, I think I'd take this with a pinch of salt because he always writes his characters a very detailed and vivid back-story to help him with his performance. This does sound, I must admit, more like his ideas and musings on the situation rather than what PJ actually means to do.
For instance, he makes it sound as if the dragon sickness is going to be physical but he has also said that he is still arguing with PJ over that: he wants to deface himself and PJ doesn't.
Also, the emphasis in the film so far has been on Thorin reclaiming his homeland for his people - the treasure has hardly been mentioned. That's the way that PJ has slanted it. Will he continue along this track or will Thorin suddenly be overcome with greed as he nears the Mountain?
I'm really looking forward to seeing how it all turns out, whatever way they decide to play it.
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Yva
Menegroth
Jan 10 2013, 11:29pm
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These were exactly my thougths as I was reading the excerpt above. RA does bring up the personal revenge and greed motives a lot in various interviews, but the focus in AUJ just really seems to be elsewhere. Well, the personal revenge theme is present to some extent, that's true, but the greed and lust for gold not really... except in the Misty Mountains song, perhaps.
So I'd say that yes, it will be elaborated in the next movies, or RA is already too preoccupied with the mad!Thorin phase.
Also, the emphasis in the film so far has been on Thorin reclaiming his homeland for his people - the treasure has hardly been mentioned. That's the way that PJ has slanted it. Will he continue along this track or will Thorin suddenly be overcome with greed as he nears the Mountain?
I'm really looking forward to seeing how it all turns out, whatever way they decide to play it.
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ashonmytomatoes
Nevrast
Jan 10 2013, 11:31pm
Post #5 of 16
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PJ needs to stay strong and NOT let RA deface himself! [;)]
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Loresilme
Doriath
Jan 10 2013, 11:42pm
Post #6 of 16
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You're very welcome! The only other on-film hint
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that I can think of is when Gandalf says to him, "Your pride will be your downfall!" That *must* have been there for a reason.
So I guess it'll be either the greed thing, or the pride thing :-)?
Regarding the 'reclaiming his homeland' aspect - I agree that is definitely the slant they have put on it at the outset. Perhaps because it then starts it off as if it's a noble thing, which then makes it all the more tragic when that noble motivation is corrupted by dragon sickness into greed for gold.
Problem is they've made Thorin so sympathetic a character (at least, initially) it'll have to be something awful enough to make it seem somewhat like justice at the end. Oh gosh I just had a horrible thought - what if they have his character be responsible for Kili and Fili's death, not just indirectly as in the book where they fall defending him, but in a more really direct way? Oh no, I don't even want to think about that, lol. I bet that would make people 'hate' him, like he says.
*sigh* it's going to be a really long couple of years to wait and find out :-).
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Yva
Menegroth
Jan 10 2013, 11:44pm
Post #7 of 16
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Thanks for the transcript. As ShireHorse mentioned, we talked about these comments in another thread and I was curious as to how recent they were as I haven't seen them before.
Physical manifestation can be subtle, or gollum style, and I doubt it would be worth mentioning in the interview if he only had the subtle sort in mind. That said, I hope he won't turn into something... unnatural. But messy hair, gaunter face, exhausted look, maybe very slightly shabbier clothes, I see no problem there.
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Loresilme
Doriath
Jan 10 2013, 11:58pm
Post #8 of 16
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he said something to the effect of, because Thorin is up until then a melancholic type of character, that the gold sickness (once they find the gold) makes him more vibrant, more like a king, but that it 'comes at a price'.
So I don't know.... except to say that RA sure gives some very interesting interviews :-).
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Rane
Nevrast
Jan 11 2013, 12:09am
Post #9 of 16
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I don't think he'll go *that* far
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Oh gosh I just had a horrible thought - what if they have his character be responsible for Kili and Fili's death, not just indirectly as in the book where they fall defending him, but in a more really direct way? Oh no, I don't even want to think about that, lol. I bet that would make people 'hate' him, like he says. I don't think he'll kill his nephews (directly). If you remember in the book those two were worried about his gold-lust. They might try to calm him down and get smacked upside the head so-to-speak. We'll hate him because that, of what he does to Bilbo, and because he won't forgive the Elvenking (grudges grudges). Think tyrant, dwarf sized.
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Loresilme
Doriath
Jan 11 2013, 12:15am
Post #10 of 16
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You're welcome :-). I found another
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interview, in which it sounds like the physical effects he's referring to are something completely the opposite than what we'd expect them to be. He says that because Thorin is up until then a melancholic type of character, that the gold sickness (once they find the gold) makes him more vibrant, more like a king, but that it 'comes at a price'.
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Loresilme
Doriath
Jan 11 2013, 12:21am
Post #11 of 16
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Actually I didn't mean he'd kill them directly, I meant that in some gold-crazed lack of judgement moment he'd do something that would result in them losing their lives.
Either way though, I really hope not.
And now I just also got very bummed out again remembering how hard it's going to be to lose Kili and Fili too. They seem more like just innocent bystanders. Their scenes might be even harder to watch.
lol "Think tyrant, dwarf sized" - "Think furnace, with wings  "
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Yva
Menegroth
Jan 11 2013, 12:44am
Post #12 of 16
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Possibly something altogether different then, even though it's of couse all just speculation.
And it would make sense, in fact more so than the depressed clichéd variant I had thought of, and would tie in neatly with the pride taking over him etc. So... glowing eyes, maybe... ? :)
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Rane
Nevrast
Jan 11 2013, 1:46am
Post #13 of 16
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Misinterpreted you there.
And yes, it will be very hard to watch them die, more so than Thorin's death. Greed comes with a very steep cost. I wonder if Peter will make Thorin acknowledge their death while he's on his own death bed. Tolkien only gave their deaths a passing mention really.
At least we'll still have Bofur 
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lindorian
Lindon
Jan 11 2013, 5:07pm
Post #14 of 16
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RA loves his in depth characterisations
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I took the 'physical manifestation' in this quote to be more of an actor thing rather than a visual thing. By this I mean the way in which an actor will use different physicality to create a character. Think of the way he talks about the young versus old fighting style. He refers to studying addiction (drugs? - don't remember) in another interview when building the idea of the dragon-sickness. Judging by the thought he puts into every aspect of a character, I would think it would be the internal need coming out in a 'physical manifestation', i.e his way of moving. Just making him look different would be too simplistic.
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Loresilme
Doriath
Jan 11 2013, 7:30pm
Post #15 of 16
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I didn't write that very clearly, sorry :-). And yes I agree if they do include a scene or moment where Thorin realizes they've both died for him.... that's going to be utterly devastating.
Regarding Bofur, I wonder if they will give him a moment to grieve as well, which would be very emotional given his (thus far) upbeat, humorous character.
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Yva
Menegroth
Jan 11 2013, 10:56pm
Post #16 of 16
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You're absolutely right, and I probably had a typical fan overreaction, thinking he would get altered in an OTT Theoden fashion (and, overreaction or not, such worries are not entirely groundless when it comes to PJ's movies. But then again, this idea is coming from RA apparently, not PJ?). The part about waiting for PJ to approve it sounds as if it were something significant, not merely cosmetic. But I'll just stop reading into it. As little as I know about RA and his work, I'm sure the result will be good.
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