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dernwyn
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Nov 26 2007, 7:44pm
Post #1 of 37
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The Old Forest II: So long, farewell, auf wiedersehn, goodbye - or, Hedging their bets
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Let’s return for a moment to the previous chapter, where we first learn of the sinister nature of the eastern boundary of Buckland:
...Their land was originally unprotected from the East; but on that side they had built a hedge: the High Hay. It had been planted many generations ago, and was now thick and tall, for it was constantly tended. It ran all the way from Brandywine Bridge, in a big loop curving away from the river, to Haysend (where the Withywindle flowed out of the Forest into the Brandywine): well over twenty miles from end to end. But, of course, it was not a complete protection. The Forest drew close to the hedge in many places. The Bucklanders kept their doors locked after dark, and that also was not usual in the Shire. How high do you think this hedge was? What shrubs would comprise it? How much upkeep would an over-twenty-mile-long Hedge require?
It seems strange that the Hobbits of Buckland would use one kind of living vegetation as a defense against another. Why not build, say, a tall iron-and-wood fence?
Fredegar is “horrified” to learn that Frodo and company plan to traverse the Old Forest: “'But you won't have any luck in the Old Forest...No one ever has luck in there. You'll get lost. People don't go in there.” The rest of the Shire-folk think those living in Buckland are crazy to live near such a place. Would they, like Fredegar, have heard “the old bogey-stories Fatty's nurses used to tell him, about goblins and wolves and things of that sort”? Who would have originated these stories, and why?
But we learn that some Brandybucks do wander in that dangerous place - no doubt as part of tweenage pranks, or secret society initiation rites - and that includes Merry and Frodo.
...They mounted, and soon they were riding off into the mist, which seemed to open reluctantly before them and close forbiddingly behind them. After riding for about an hour, slowly and without talking, they saw the Hedge looming suddenly ahead. It was tall and netted over with silver cobwebs...’I only hope you will not need rescuing before the day is out.’ Cue the portentious music! It can hardly be more obvious, that this quartet may soon come unstrung.
The four ride down into the hollow to the brick-lined tunnel under the Hedge.
...It was dark and damp. At the far end it was closed by a gate of thick-set iron bars. Merry got down and unlocked the gate, and when they had all passed through he pushed it to again. It shut with a clang, and the lock clicked. The sound was ominous.
...'There!' said Merry. 'You have left the Shire, and are now outside, and on the edge of the Old Forest.' The “point of no return”! Is the Old Forest locked out - or the Shire locked in?
And the four of them disappear into a tunnel. At other times in the forthcoming story, various members of the Fellowship will “disappear” into tunnels. What is the purpose of tunnels in LotR: did they hold a subconscious meaning for Tolkien, or are they merely plot devices?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 8:31pm
Post #2 of 37
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How high do you think this hedge was?
Much higher than the hobbits, apparently, if they had to build a gate under it to pass. Maybe ten feet high?
What shrubs would comprise it?
I have no idea.
How much upkeep would an over-twenty-mile-long Hedge require?
Constant tending, as Tolkien says.
Why not build, say, a tall iron-and-wood fence?
Well, a hedge is cheaper. Also the hobbits seem to treat the trees of the old forest more like wild animals than orcs. The idea was to create an unmanned barrier to movement, not a manned wall that would resist an army.
The hedge also shows that the hobbits were in touch with the earth, although they liked ordered hedges and fields rather than wild, untamed forests. It's the sort of thing that made Treebeard think of entwives. Giant stone walls just weren't a hobbit specialty -- hedges were.
Would [other hobbits], like Fredegar, have heard “the old bogey-stories Fatty's nurses used to tell him, about goblins and wolves and things of that sort”?
Yes.
Who would have originated these stories, and why?
First of all, Fatty's nurses may be wiser than Merry gives them credit for, like the old nurse Ioreth in Gondor. In Tolkien's world, old wives' tales originate in fact. Maybe the stories were altered over time, but Fatty was quite right to believe that the hobbits would need rescuing before the day was done.
Is the Old Forest locked out - or the Shire locked in?
Both, I suppose.
What is the purpose of tunnels in LotR: did they hold a subconscious meaning for Tolkien, or are they merely plot devices?
Some tunnels are longer than others. This one is more of a gate than a tunnel. In other words it is more of a transition between two places than a place for a self-contained adventure.
Borders are quite defined and significant in LotR. People keep strictly within the borders of their homeland, and that includes elves and orcs and wargs and huorns and ents and wights and eagles and spiders as well as humans and hobbits. Traveling is dangerous even for those who keep to the road, and deadly for all but a few who do not.
The "wilderness" is not as empty as it seems, but is almost always inhabited, although quite often not by humans. But there are many sentient non-humans, and also unseen powers guarding various borders, as well as many varieties of humans, such as woses and hobbits.
When King Elessar takes over he reinforces the borders rather than tearing them down. Frost may have quoted the proverb ironically in his poem, but Tolkien seems to have really believed the farmer's proverb that good fences make good neighbors.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 26 2007, 10:19pm
Post #3 of 37
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I generally agree, but...
[quote=Curious]Borders are quite defined and significant in LotR. People keep strictly within the borders of their homeland, and that includes elves and orcs and wargs and huorns and ents and wights and eagles and spiders as well as humans and hobbits. Traveling is dangerous even for those who keep to the road, and deadly for all but a few who do not.
This is a problem for me and always has been: people are adventurous, they do travel from place to place on roads. Are the non-adventurous peoples of Middle Earth simply not fathomable to the minds of real people (especially real, inquisitive people)?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 26 2007, 10:28pm
Post #4 of 37
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I mostly agree with Curious here
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How high do you think this hedge was? What shrubs would comprise it? How much upkeep would an over-twenty-mile-long Hedge require?
The shrubs would probably be common English shrubs. I imagine holly being a major component of it.
A twenty-mile-long hedge would require tremendous maintanance - so much that it almost strains credibility that the Hobbits actually do it. It would require a number of people working full-time just to trim it.
It seems strange that the Hobbits of Buckland would use one kind of living vegetation as a defense against another. Why not build, say, a tall iron-and-wood fence?
As Curious says, this is about as natural as artificial barriers can get. Hobbits represent order instead of the wilderness that the Elves and their borders represent, but the nature of the borders are the same. This particular border was made to keep out the trees, who might be hedged out (pun intended) by some natural force, here. If they were orcs, they still might have some trouble getting through, and if the Hobbits really put their mind to it, I'll bet they could make a pretty Orc-proof hedge, at least as Orc-proof as many of the stone walls of Men.
What is the purpose of tunnels in LotR: did they hold a subconscious meaning for Tolkien, or are they merely plot devices?
Both, although I think the plot is more important. The tunnels, in all cases, serve to conceal the Fellowship from the forces of Sauron, protecting them from his evil. However, each tunnel comes with its own dangers. In this sense, the "tunnel" that the Hobbits have passed into is not just a tunnel through the hedge, but a tunnel all of the way to close to Brie, because they are still hidden from the Black Riders clear over the Barrow Downs.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 10:56pm
Post #5 of 37
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Good point about the length of the tunnel!
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In this sense, the "tunnel" that the Hobbits have passed into is not just a tunnel through the hedge, but a tunnel all of the way to close to Brie, because they are still hidden from the Black Riders clear over the Barrow Downs.
We could at least see the passage through the Old Forest as a kind of tunnel, similar to although not as long as Bilbo's passage through Mirkwood. I'm not sure I would call it a tunnel in the Barrow Downs, though, even in a looser sense -- except of course when they literally go underground. They aren't really concealed on the Downs at all, at least not while the sun shines. Tunnels conceal but they also force the hobbits and other heroes down one specific path, where they cannot avoid confronting whoever resides in that tunnel. In the Downs they could have avoided the wight if they had followed Bombadil's instructions.
Long hedges are quite common in England, as well as elsewhere in Europe, so I'm not sure they are as hard to maintain as you think. And the largest known hedge was the Great Hedge of India, which extended for nearly 2000 miles and was designed as a barrier to humans. By the way, the Great Hedge of India had thorns, which would make sense for the hobbits if they wanted to keep out more than trees.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 11:06pm
Post #6 of 37
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Travel is dangerous, but not impossible.
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The dwarves and elves and Rangers travel across the north, and even some hobbits travel a bit. Elves travel between Rivendell and Lothlorien. Rohirrim and Gondorians travel across the south to the west of the Anduin. Sauron's armies travel to Mordor and back. But travel is dangerous, and I think that has been a reality throughout much of history. Before the invention of the train and car, most people did not travel.
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Kimi
Forum Admin
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Nov 26 2007, 11:41pm
Post #7 of 37
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Planting and maintaining hedges as boundaries is a skilled craft with a long history. I found interesting references here and here. Pleaching makes such hedges thick and well-nigh impenetrable, and means that, while they do need maintenance, we shouldn't imagine them as needing the sort of maintenance a conventionally-pruned garden hedge would need if scaled up to such a size.
Note some of the recommended species: "sloe, blackthorn, hazel, holly, buckthorn and hawthorn". All are species that coppice readily, and some are usefully spiny! But they also reminded me of:
"Apple, thorn, and nut and sloe, let them go! Let them go!"
"Hay", "hedge", and the "haw" of hawthorn are all related etymologically.
  
Promises to Keep: a novel set in 19th Century New Zealand.
The Passing of Mistress Rose
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 27 2007, 2:35am
Post #8 of 37
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Yet historical people wandered
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Historically, people were not as mobile as they are today, but there were the merchants, the adventurers, and the fugitives, who did go from place to place and crossed the borders of various nations.
I had a discussion recently that Tolkien's peoples seem too orderly, just as a general rule. Where are the bandits and highwaymen, and the couples who run away to elope, and the merchants who smell a profit shipping goods that each race desires and which other races have? Ellesar's command that no Men shall enter the Shire is incongrous: a merchant from Fornost go into Hobbiton with a wagonload of garden shears made from fine Dwarven steel, and the Hobbits would welcome him into their land, because they want to buy his stuff. And wouldn't the Fornostians enjoy a few barrels of Old Toby pipeweed that he brings back with him?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Nerdanel
Ossiriand
Nov 27 2007, 6:22am
Post #9 of 37
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I do love the British. A people who could make an art and a competitive sport out of growing hedges is my kind of people!
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Penthe
Mithlond
Nov 27 2007, 6:32am
Post #10 of 37
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Travel is seen as a good by Aragorn
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And by the people of Bree, generally. Aragorn's decree keeps humans out of the Shire, but it does not stop hobbits from going out to meet them if they want to. I think Aragorn is afraid that hobbits could be easily dominated, as Saruman's thugs did. It seems incongruous when we know that the hobbits managed to kick them out. Aragorn does not want anyone colonising the Shire though.
Both Gandalf and Aragorn both see increased travel along the Greenway as a good thing, as is expressed explicitly to Butterbur. The isolation of the Rohirrim is not seen as a good by Aragorn, he believes they have become proud and insular as a result. Other 'good' characters promote the cross fertilisation of cultures, such as Faramir giving right of way to Sam and Frodo and in his marrying Eowyn. One of Bilbo's great qualities is his tendency to befriend people outside the Shire. The Bree relationship of hobbits and men living together is likewise editorialised positively as an excellent arrangement.
In the hobbit we see all the peoples strengthened in the end by communicating with their neighbours - the Dale folk, the dwarves, the lakemen and the Elves all become greater for cooperation.
I think the text is suggesting that the stable, orderly situation of the nations in Middle-Earth is rather unnatural, and with the destruction of Sauron's evil movement and openess will prevail. I'll avoid postcolonial discussions at this point, I think.
I quite like cheese, you know.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 27 2007, 7:41am
Post #11 of 37
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Aragorn might be right to be worried
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and I am certain that this is the justification Tolkien would give for his decree. However, it is so much like so many of the other decrees and decisions made by Tolkien's rulers. Do you really think that the inhabitants of Hithlum would all abandon their homes to go to Gondolin, especially if they could never leave? I have no doubt that some would, but Tuor's finding Turgon's city entirely deserted demands some explanation other than a single royal decree. There are many other explanations of this sort of thing that I could bring up as well.
Now, here comes the irony: in LotR, there is movement between peoples, and peoples do behave as individuals, rather than as blocks. Gildor Inglorin's bunch is the first case we encounter of members of one people living well within the borders of another people's land and doing so quite harmoniously. It makes the Elves at least a much more fathomable people, as well as raises some interesting questions about their demographics (i.e. there may be a lot more of them in Middle Earth than anybody realizes!).
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 27 2007, 9:26am
Post #12 of 37
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How high do you think this hedge was? What shrubs would comprise it? How much upkeep would an over-twenty-mile-long Hedge require?
Hawthorn would be my first choice - it looks so beautiful in spring when the blossom is out, and I believe you can make some kind of wine from the haws. I imagine it tangled in with brambles and wild roses - both also with blossom in spring and useful fruit later, as well as being prickly. Holly's another prickly candidate. These plants would grow to their own natural height - I've seen hawthorn hedges 20 feet high or so, but I expect it depends on soil etc. Once a hedge is started, other wild plants tend to move in and get tangled up in the whole thing - honeysuckle and other creepers weave through it, wild flowers with tough roots (daisies, buttercups, pimpernels) grow thickly around the bottom and soon the whole thing takes on a life of its own. The hedge would need to have an eye kept on it, trimmed back occasionally and perhaps filled in if bits got thin. But if it was made of useful plants, people would be interested in looking after it for its own sake. And as one of the articles Kimi links to says, "[a hedge] will outlive any fence and needs only occasional maintenance."
It seems strange that the Hobbits of Buckland would use one kind of living vegetation as a defense against another. Why not build, say, a tall iron-and-wood fence?
As the article says, hedges are more likely to last than man-made fences. Back in the fifties, the British government ripped out the hedges on some blind corners of country roads near where I'm from, and replaced them with open metal fencing to improve visibility. Today the metal fencing is rusted and unsightly, but the hedges on either side are as thick and robust as ever.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Nov 27 2007, 9:33am)
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Penthe
Mithlond
Nov 27 2007, 10:51am
Post #13 of 37
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I don't visualise the Buckland hedge in such glowing and summery terms, though. But it must flower or berry at some times, and all the other things would surely grow in it if it borders the fields of the hobbits.
You also reminded me of The Borrowers Afield, in which Arrietty climbs inside a hedge, but presumably not a 20 foot high one. Then I wondered if hobbits would have borrowers or not.
I quite like cheese, you know.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 27 2007, 12:29pm
Post #14 of 37
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Sure, travel will be safe in the empire. But
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it will be orderly travel, with strict laws and strong borders. No trespassing permitted. No offending the local citizens. It's not exactly the wild frontier. On the other hand men will be able to expand into the territory formerly held by non-humans, either because elves and such have voluntarily vacated the premises, or more likely because monsters and wights have been banished. So there will be plenty of new settlements like the Westmarch in the Shire, or the new Ithilien. But they, too, will have borders and laws.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 27 2007, 12:41pm
Post #15 of 37
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Tolkien's peoples seem too orderly, just as a general rule
Tolkien's peoples include orcs and trolls and ruffians. His people are orderly in the sense that they are separated into good peoples and bad peoples. That of course is part of the fantasy, and not the case in the Primary World, as Tolkien recognized in his letters, where he talked about the orcish soldiers in the British Army.
Where are the bandits and highwaymen
See orcs and trolls.
the couples who run away to elope
Beren and Luthien? Turgon's sister?
the merchants who smell a profit shipping goods that each race desires and which other races have?
Dwarves? Lotho-Sackville Baggins? Tolkien was not a big fan of merchants, I judge.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 27 2007, 6:02pm
Post #16 of 37
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Shouldn't fantasy be fantastical?
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Tolkien's peoples include orcs and trolls and ruffians. His people are orderly in the sense that they are separated into good peoples and bad peoples.
Although, as you say, the orcs and trolls and ruffians themselves are confined by borders.
Beren and Luthien? Turgon's sister?
That's two, both in the First Age. Where are the others? And where are they in the Third Age?
The other part of the "order" runs into major problems with B&L, for that matter.
Dwarves? Lotho-Sackville Baggins? Tolkien was not a big fan of merchants, I judge.
Of cource not - they're greedy.
So, if a Man cannot make the journey from Fornost to the Shire to sell garden shears and bring back pipeweed, can a Hobbit go from the Shire to Fornost to sell pipeweed and bring back garden shears?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 27 2007, 6:21pm
Post #17 of 37
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They can, but they wouldn't want to.
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can a Hobbit go from the Shire to Fornost to sell pipeweed and bring back garden shears?
Most wouldn't go at all. The Tooks and Brandybucks and Fairbairns and Gardners and Gamgees who go to Fornost would surely bring pipeweed as a gift, though, knowing that the King likes it, and may well get garden shears, or perhaps some rare seeds from Gondor, as a return gift.
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Kethry
Menegroth
Nov 27 2007, 11:47pm
Post #18 of 37
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It seems strange that the Hobbits of Buckland would use one kind of living vegetation as a defense against another. Why not build, say, a tall iron-and-wood fence?
When did they build the hedge? Was it soon after they arrived in Buckland? Had they the capability to build a tall fence made of iron and wood? But if they grew the hedge, and used plants transplanted from the Shire, then I would think that the plantings would be domesticated, so to speak. Although now I wonder, was the reason the hedge was built to protect from the forest, or from more mobile beings? If they didn’t see the Forest as a threat, then there’s nothing wrong with building a fence with plants.
Merry got down and unlocked the gate, and when they had all passed through he pushed it to again. It shut with a clang, and the lock clicked.
What kind of lock was on this gate? Was it a keyed lock, or just a latch? If it was keyed, who had the key? Was it hanging on the post so anyone could get into the forest? Was it given to particular hobbits? Well, Merry does mention the private Brandybuck entrance. Perhaps only a few hobbits knew of that entrance into the forest.
"Any kind of plan where you lose your hat... is a bad plan."
'But it does not seem that I can trust anyone,' said Frodo.
Sam looked at him unhappily. 'It all depends on what you want,' put in Merry. 'You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin - to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours - closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo.'
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 28 2007, 12:12am
Post #19 of 37
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Suppose that some Man does break Aragorn's edict and go into the Shire to sell garden shears and buy pipeweed. What happens to him?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Nov 28 2007, 12:23am
Post #20 of 37
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If it was keyed, did the key hang on a ring on the Shire-side of the gate, and anyone who went through needed to take it with them in order to return? Or did many Hobbits have a key?
Or if it was a latch, would it have unlocked only in one direction, making those who passed through have to either, say, set a stone in the gate so it wouldn't close and lock on them, or have someone waiting on the Shire side to let them back in?
And if it unlocked in either direction - then why bother with a gate? Who, or what, was the gate there, to keep out?
Good question!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 28 2007, 12:34am
Post #21 of 37
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in the behind, like all the other ruffians! No, he'll probably be politely turned away, and get the pitchfork only if he becomes unruly.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 28 2007, 3:27am
Post #22 of 37
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Does Aragorn maintain an armed guard on the Shire in the Fourth Age, in which entering it without being a Hobbit is punishable by death?
I presume that Dwarves and Elves are free to enter the Shire...
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 28 2007, 3:34am
Post #23 of 37
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I'm sure there are still bounders.
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Although I suppose if the Big Folk get the message, they may not have to permanently station anyone at the bridge. But no, I'm sure the punishment was not death. And I'm also sure the Big Folk got the message, and settled elsewhere. I think Aragorn made the rule because the rest of the North Kingdom was going to be rapidly resettled.
I think elves and dwarves are free to enter in order to reach their domains to the west, although the implication is that both races will dwindle and fade rapidly in the Age of Man.
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Owlyross
Nargothrond
Nov 28 2007, 3:03pm
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How high do you think this hedge was? What shrubs would comprise it? How much upkeep would an over-twenty-mile-long Hedge require?
All kinds of shrubs, trees, and everything in between. If nothing abbuts the Hedge, it wouldn’t need a huge amount of maintenance, just a trim every year or so…
It seems strange that the Hobbits of Buckland would use one kind of living vegetation as a defense against another. Why not build, say, a tall iron-and-wood fence?
Maybe they learnt their lesson about using human power against the power of nature (the fire glade) and wanted to placate the forest. If these plants are alive and have thoughts, they’re less likely to try and destroy their own kind than a man (or hobbit) built fence.
Fredegar is “horrified” to learn that Frodo and company plan to traverse the Old Forest: “'But you won't have any luck in the Old Forest...No one ever has luck in there. You'll get lost. People don't go in there.” The rest of the Shire-folk think those living in Buckland are crazy to live near such a place. Would they, like Fredegar, have heard “the old bogey-stories Fatty's nurses used to tell him, about goblins and wolves and things of that sort”? Who would have originated these stories, and why?
Probably the same people who believe the Forest is a malevolent force (for good reason, following my thread) and who decided to build “a hedge” rather than “a wall”
Cue the portentious music! It can hardly be more obvious, that this quartet may soon come unstrung.
Well, it’s that early morning feeling, half awake, half asleep, everything seems softer, but more threatening, as you can’t see that far. It’s the same as when dusk hits.
The “point of no return”! Is the Old Forest locked out - or the Shire locked in?
The Shire is locked in already, and it continues to be even more locked in at the end of the book, when Aragorn proclaims it off-limits to all.
And the four of them disappear into a tunnel. At other times in the forthcoming story, various members of the Fellowship will “disappear” into tunnels. What is the purpose of tunnels in LotR: did they hold a subconscious meaning for Tolkien, or are they merely plot devices?
They’re transitional. From bad to worse. Or in this case, the first instance of the Hobbits being out of their depth comes after they have gone through the tunnel. This, Shelob’s tunnel, the Paths of the Dead, Moria… There is an escalation each time, the story kicks up a gear and we get further from the mundane and further into deep fantasy.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Nov 28 2007, 3:58pm
Post #25 of 37
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"Gnawing, hacking, burning, destroyers and usurpers" couldn't get through a hedge? Well, maybe you're right, but I take the hedge at face value as a defense against the Old Forest. The Old Forest itself might be a good first line of defense against orcs, but not necessarily. Consider the destruction orcs wreaked on Fangorn before the Ents were roused.
I love your idea that the hobbits are in a protective tunnel all the way to Bree. That tunnel and gate get more fascinating every time we discuss this chapter.
Where's Frodo?
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