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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Dec 15 2012, 3:21am
Post #1 of 17
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Any allegations that the films pacing was too slow are quite mistaken. . . and did anyone else have a problem with the erroneous revisionism of Dwarven history?
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That is a real query, by the way.
Back to the Pacing issue, however, I really struggle to see how anyone could objectively deem the pacing of the opening hour to be slow. The opening was, to my thought, perfectly paced. If there were any pacing problems at all, it seems to me that there may have been two or three places where events or responses seemed to lurch forward in transition a little too quickly (or where the soundtrack cued up a little too dramatically/ostentatiously), and not because of Higher Frame rates. I had harboured concerns about the Bilbo/Frodo scene running way too long, but that fear was soon allayed, and they dallied togetanthemher no longer than was sufficient to provide a nod and a laugh, and set up the focal story. Smaug seemed sufficiently enormous and impressive., Erebor and The Arkenstone were lovely, and Thranduil was a vision of eldritch majesty. The scenes of introduction and The Unexpected Party itself were wonderfully done. . . almost flawlessly, from the Smokering which Gandalf transforms for Bilbo's amusement all the way through the dwarves gorgeous rendering of their .
I found it interesting and unfotunate that The Great Ring of Durin's house was never mentioned, nor linked (as would have been proper and accurate) with the madness of Thror, especially since Jackson is doing so much to tie the films all together. Two films remain, so we will see if this comes up later. I found the changes to the history of the Dwarf and Goblin war to be as disappointing as I expected. Disturbing as the scene with Thror's head was, shifting his death to an event within the Azanulbizar battle robbed the war of nearly all its epic, powerful drama. Equally disappointing was the failure to better allude to the real reason the dwarves, despite winning the war and battle (decisively, and completely by the source account), were unable to reclaim Moria. . . which of course, was the same reason they first fled that greatest and eldest dwarven Fatherland: the presence of The Balrog. I dd note the fire and the great glow seen within Moria's gates and hall, which may well have been an allusion to the Balrog, but if so it was one of the most vague attempts at allusion in film history, and no one who wasn't both observant and well informed will have gotten it. Again, this is something which may (and frankly will need to, for the sake of continuity with what Is known in Fellowship, among other reasons) be amended in the next two films, though the alterations to the timeframe of Thror's and Azog's deaths certainly cannot be.
The shire to lonelands banter was enjoyable. I liked Gandalf's mentioning of The Blue Wizards, and would have been even more pleased (had his hat been consistently blue, rather than frequently seeming to shift between varying shades of blue, gray and blue/grey) if he had, perhaps, suggested that one of that pair had given him his iconic blue hat as a memento before departing East.  The troll scene was very humourous, and while I thought the mucus gag excessive, all the other decisions worked very well, from the Trolls comments, to Bilbo's cleverness, to the dwarves reactions, and finally Gandalf's impressive display of power, in the nick of time.
On the matter of Radagast. . . . no Jar Jar was he. And I quite enjoyed him, aside from his penchant for crossing his eyes, especially when also rolling them upward. That bit of superfluous silliness detracted from what was otherwise a very impressive moment when he seemingly both healed the hedgehog and repelled the spiders with his rolling spellcraft. His encounter with the wraith form Witch-King was a laudable treat. I must say that The Necromancer could easily have been better conceived and made to look more ominous Shadow entity and less tar person.
Rivendell was lovely. It was pleasant to hear the more joyous music, and to encounter Hugo playing a more affable and approachable Elrond. For the most part, I loved The White Council scene, though I was somewhat displeased with the alterations to background and timeline( and to the history of The Witch King and Arnor), as well as with Galadriel being suggestively portrayed (though certainly not implicitly stated) as a "superior" to Gandalf. Her conversation with him, both with spoken word, and their shared telepathic communication, was wonderful, as was his reaction and banter with Saruman. Lee was, as always, brilliant. The Moon Letter scene was also excellently rendered.
Of the Stone Giant battle plenty has been said, already. I will say only that I greatly enjoyed the emotions and interactions which the peril brought out amongst Bilbo and The Dwarves. Barry Humpries was inspired as The Great Goblin, and will likely be long enshrined as one of film's classic comic villains. Gandalf's magical, initial liberation of the dwarves was, while not stylistically as dramatic as I imagined possible, very impressive and awe inducing in its way. It was certainly a far more astounding display than I feared Peter, with his erratic and sometimes bothersome penchant for severely downplaying magic when translating scenes from the text, might have given. Any concerns that Peter Jackson might reduce Gandalf's big rescue act to a scene of the Wizard merely distracting the goblin horde by shining his staff light in their faces are literally blown away. For a brief moment the film's Mithrandir parts the veil of his gray cloak (figuratively), and allows something of his true power to show forth, before rallying the dwarves to arise and do their part. The Goblin King's reaction was pitch perfect, and the subsequent flight and fight was exhilarating, and not nearly as cartoonish or cheap seeming as the released clip and earlier rumours suggest, though there are a few moments that are excessively animated. The Goblin king's last words are not so bad, in context.
As has been stated many times, the Riddles in The Dark scene is spot on, at turns creepy and successfully comic, and ultimately touching, as Bilbo's well rewarded moment of mercy comes to the fore.
I might have mentioned the wargs earlier, but I have saved speaking of them to coincide with comments on their last hunt in the film. They are extremely well rendered and horrifying. Conceptually they are leagues better (the white matriarch especially) than their Two Towers counterparts, and the CGI, while not perfect if you really strain to spot a flaw, is at least on par with and mainly superior to that of the earlier, hyena-like "wargs." These wargs are the type of great, hellish, quadruped werewolf-like wolf-monsters that one would expect based on the textual descriptions. Azog, for his part, truly is a creepy and unsettling monster, even if he is dead walking and exactly a head taller than he is supposed to be at this time?   , an erroneous revisionism which never quite stopped bothering me. There were other, better, less deviant ways of having Thorin hunting and hunted by a hated, horrible orc. Say, Bolg).
I have to say, I did expect a little better of the Wizard's pinecone magic in the trees. I expected Jackson to either disservice us by leaving it out entirely, or to do it proper, majestic justice. As it is, he did the one thing I didn't expect: he kept the scene, but made it look gimmicky. The Old Rankin & Bass cartoon managed that particular display of magic better. Other than that, the scene was certainly riveting, and the films ending properly touching and settled. The parts of Smaug's face were, as hoped, magnificent.
As to slow pacing? Like I said, nowhere to be seen.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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thoon
Nevrast
Dec 15 2012, 3:45am
Post #2 of 17
(1100 views)
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My thoughts on the reorganization of Azanulbizar
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I think it works because the changes add to/support significant driving points of the film. There are two things motivating the dwarves: 1) a need for home 2) a need for justice.
As to the first, retaking Moria isn't a stretch. It doesn't fall in line directly with Tolkien's writings, but Thror's desire is proof that it's not unthinkable. They've lost their home, and dwarves are not the kind to be intimidated. There was a need to regain a sense of pride and honor, and taking back Moria would have done just that. But they failed, and it cemented their status as a desolate people. There is no question that they have been diminished, and that they have no true home to return to.
As for the second, falling in line with the changes to taking Moria, Thror's death at Azanulbizar avoids discarding the event while keeping it streamlined. They could have cut that plot entirely: the jumps between years and events might have been a bit too much for an otherwise very fluid prologue. The important thing, though, is that it is in. Honestly, the fact that Thorin actually witnesses the event adds a degree of drama and brokenness to the character. He's witnessed the heinous destruction of his home. Now he's witnessed the savage death of his grandfather. He's lost everything. There is no way he can deny it. But we see that it hasn't deterred him, and we want to root for him because of that determination against adversity.
Both are deviations, I'll agree. But I'm okay with them because they work and add significant weight narratively. Good storytelling is good storytelling in my book.
(This post was edited by thoon on Dec 15 2012, 3:47am)
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Dec 15 2012, 3:50am
Post #3 of 17
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i really enjoyed him as well. No complaints on pacing from me. At first yes but that was while i was watching the film for the first time. After viewing the film i have no issue with the pacing.
Owned.
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Kristin Thompson
Nargothrond
Dec 15 2012, 3:58am
Post #4 of 17
(989 views)
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Thanks for your report on the film!
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I haven't seen the film yet. Like you, I am a big fan of Gandalf, and your descriptions of his actions reassure me that, unlike in LOTR, his role is not downplayed in THE HOBBIT.
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Captain Salt
Dor-Lomin
Dec 15 2012, 3:58am
Post #5 of 17
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Agreed, in what way is the first hour "too slow"?
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There's not a wasted moment in the Unexpected Party, and in fact I would have preferred we had gotten to know most of the Dwarves better.
The problem for me, IMO, is not that the film runs too long, it's that it lacks the narrative momentum and story-propelled core to sustain it, therefore things doesn't necessarily lead to the next in a way which feels like it's being driven forward...it is a tad laboriously-paced as a result, IMO, but however, despite this, I still very much enjoyed the film, flaws and all.
I also don't get the comparisons of Radagast to Jar Jar...eh, not so much. Do we remember how awful Jar Jar was? I was fine with Raddy and thought he was well-acted by Silvester McCoy.
I didn't mind the re-written Dwarf history, as it was close enough for me that it worked...and allowed for the introduction of Eggnog Defiler.
My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Dec 15 2012, 5:16am
Post #6 of 17
(972 views)
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It isn't nearly as powerful a story. And it lacks the strong justification of The War of Vengeance.
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Thror went to look upon Moria, not to try to reclaim it. He and Nar alone wouldn't have been up to the task of taking on a pair of trolls that might have gone within to hide from the sun, let alone an army of orcs or a Balrog. Thror made a visit, hoping perhaps to find some treasure, but it turned fatal.
The change turns a powerful story into an decent story. As to whether or not they were intimidated. . . normally, no, but one thing intimidated them above all others left on earth: Durin's bane. Dain slew Azog with savage, righteous wrath. . . and beheld the Demon and came back grey faced with terror, making a proclamation to his king that was also some of the best foreshadowing since Glorfindel prophesied about The Witch King. Gimli also speaks of The Balrog as a being which haunts the deepest nightmares of the dwarves. They are bold and fierce, but not fearless, and the demon against whom they could do little or no harm terrified them. And that too is a potent tale of horror and foreboding, especially when we have Fellowship sitting ahead, making this being to be such a big deal, and the terror of Moria. The visual companion to The Hobbit also speaks of him driving the dwarves from Moria. The fire beyond The East Moria Gate may well have alluded to him in this movie. But sooo vaguely. They may say more later. It would be a major oversight if not. Having established him as the Horror of Moria since time out of mind, it at least merits explaining why the dwarves might hope to find him not at home after a thousand years. . . and to allude to how wrong their hopes proved.
I think it works because the changes add to/support significant driving points of the film. There are two things motivating the dwarves: 1) a need for home 2) a need for justice.
As to the first, retaking Moria isn't a stretch. It doesn't fall in line directly with Tolkien's writings, but Thror's desire is proof that it's not unthinkable. They've lost their home, and dwarves are not the kind to be intimidated. There was a need to regain a sense of pride and honor, and taking back Moria would have done just that. But they failed, and it cemented their status as a desolate people. There is no question that they have been diminished, and that they have no true home to return to.
As for the second, falling in line with the changes to taking Moria, Thror's death at Azanulbizar avoids discarding the event while keeping it streamlined. They could have cut that plot entirely: the jumps between years and events might have been a bit too much for an otherwise very fluid prologue. The important thing, though, is that it is in. Honestly, the fact that Thorin actually witnesses the event adds a degree of drama and brokenness to the character. He's witnessed the heinous destruction of his home. Now he's witnessed the savage death of his grandfather. He's lost everything. There is no way he can deny it. But we see that it hasn't deterred him, and we want to root for him because of that determination against adversity.
Both are deviations, I'll agree. But I'm okay with them because they work and add significant weight narratively. Good storytelling is good storytelling in my book.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Dec 15 2012, 5:19am
Post #7 of 17
(923 views)
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You are very welcome! And thank you for the response.
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I've followed your work on all the behind the scenes happenings that led up to this film finally being made, and have been impressed by it. Yes, Gandalf The Grey is well represented here. It isn't always perfect, as with the pine cones, but it does keep most of the key points (there are even a few subtle but impressive additions), and the scene in The Great Goblin's lair works quite well.I haven't seen the film yet. Like you, I am a big fan of Gandalf, and your descriptions of his actions reassure me that, unlike in LOTR, his role is not downplayed in THE HOBBIT.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Elessar
Doriath
Dec 15 2012, 5:29am
Post #8 of 17
(947 views)
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Glad you liked it but I am surprised :)
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Elessar
Doriath
Dec 15 2012, 5:53am
Post #10 of 17
(903 views)
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Just based on what I've read I would have strongly put money on you really not liking it.
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Dec 15 2012, 5:59am
Post #11 of 17
(906 views)
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Ahh. You have to look more closely. lol
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I rage and vent really hard, but you will notice it is usually only about a select and fairly small number of changes, deviations and omissions that REALLY annoy me. Everything that I directly praise, and many things that I don't bother to mention, I like quite a lot. The films are great as films, and good as adaptations. But there are flaws, and things I wish Peter would either have done, or have refrained from doing, and I don't mind saying so. lol
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Dec 15 2012, 6:05am
Post #12 of 17
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And generally agree. The film, as you point, was not perfectly paced. There were places where I felt it lurched, or where transitions were too sudden. But the notion that any part of it was too slow or dragged along, I think we both refute. The movie moved, for the most part, at a great pace, but there were simply moments where it seemed to trip and stagger for a step or two before recovering. There's not a wasted moment in the Unexpected Party, and in fact I would have preferred we had gotten to know most of the Dwarves better.
The problem for me, IMO, is not that the film runs too long, it's that it lacks the narrative momentum and story-propelled core to sustain it, therefore things doesn't necessarily lead to the next in a way which feels like it's being driven forward...it is a tad laboriously-paced as a result, IMO, but however, despite this, I still very much enjoyed the film, flaws and all.
I also don't get the comparisons of Radagast to Jar Jar...eh, not so much. Do we remember how awful Jar Jar was? I was fine with Raddy and thought he was well-acted by Silvester McCoy.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Elessar
Doriath
Dec 15 2012, 6:15am
Post #13 of 17
(899 views)
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The eye will be ever watchful from now on.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 15 2012, 7:27am
Post #14 of 17
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Have the filmmakers exceeded their legal rights?
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Since you mention the Blue Wizards...
Tolkien sold the film rights to The Hobbit and The Lord of the Ring, but not to his other works; rights to those remain the property of the Tolkien Estate.
Tolkien has Saruman mention the five wizards in LOTR, so the filmmakers have the right to use that concept. Tolkien said in a letter that the public release of this information was a mistake by Saruman in his rage, but the filmmakers do not have the rights to Tolkien's letters, so they break no rules by having Gandalf mention five wizards to Bilbo.
However, as far as I know, the fact that there are two Blue Wizards is not mentioned in LOTR but only in the letters, Unfinished Tales and The Peoples of Middle-earth. Have the filmmakers, as with the description of the Ring of Barahir in the LOTR movies, said more than they are allowed, strictly speaking?
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 15 2012, 8:54am
Post #16 of 17
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She wasn't trying to get the filmmakers in trouble, I trust!
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 15 2012, 5:37pm
Post #17 of 17
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Croft has confirmed on the Mythopoeic Society mailing list that there was a non-LOTR/Hobbit detail in the films she advised the filmmakers to cut but they didn't.
I'm sure it won't really make a difference.
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