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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Goblin/Orc connection?
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YaznegSouth40
Rivendell

Nov 9 2012, 8:42pm

Post #1 of 30 (1220 views)
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Goblin/Orc connection? Can't Post

With all these leaked images of goblins and orcs from the upcoming movie it is making me wonder (for this adaptation at least) what the connection is between the slimy, sore festered goblins and the orcs (more man-sized) presumably from Dol Guldur? Does one group have more dominion over the other : the orcs of the Necromancer dominate but also aid the goblins when they are in trouble (Goblin King's death) and later at the Battle of Five Armies?


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Nov 9 2012, 8:48pm

Post #2 of 30 (675 views)
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We don't know for certain I don't think. [In reply to] Can't Post

Much as in the texts, to what extent, if any, Dol Guldur influenced the goblins at that time.

LR


(This post was edited by Lacrimae Rerum on Nov 9 2012, 8:55pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Nov 9 2012, 10:09pm

Post #3 of 30 (633 views)
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Tolkien used the term interchangeably [In reply to] Can't Post

in his writings so basically in the book universe there isn't much difference just the term orc or goblin whichever Tolkien felt like using at the time... Now what Peter Jackson is doing who knows? And in Tolkien's work there were no goblin's or Orcs of Dol Guldur in the Hobbit and the necromancer had nothing to do with the BO5A... SO I'm just thinking PJ is making it up as he goes along. Wink


chrism628
Bree

Nov 9 2012, 10:21pm

Post #4 of 30 (649 views)
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Goblin/Orc Distinguished [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure what sort of influence the goblins have with the orcs. It seems the Goblins just dwell in the Misty Mountains not meddling in the affairs with anyone unless they are bothered by unwanted visitors or if the Necromancer commands them to do something for his advantage. The orcs at most would boss them around at the Necromancers command if needed.


burgahobbit
Rohan


Nov 9 2012, 10:33pm

Post #5 of 30 (640 views)
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In the movie, Gandalf will assure Bilbo (spoilers) [In reply to] Can't Post

That he will not meet any orcs on his adventure. At least...according to the trivia challenge from the hobbit facebook page, that is. I think this is really strange because the "hunter orcs" seem to be...well...orcs. That was the weirdest thing in that trivia that I saw, and I'm interested to see how it will work in the movie, if it really is true. The trivia also said that the Lonely Mountain is north of mirkwood so who knows what's right and wrong. Crazy


(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Nov 9 2012, 10:34pm)


YaznegSouth40
Rivendell

Nov 9 2012, 10:35pm

Post #6 of 30 (593 views)
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Orc domination [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks folks for your replies. Yes I can agree with each of you. I think you all have logical points of view! The idea I had was that the Orcs(according to Jackson) will be the central antagonistic force of the Necromancers CREW if you will therefore led by Azog and Bolg to rise up and mobilize later on and eventually be joined perhaps by the remnants of Goblin Town. Yes Tolkien did as i had stated in another thread a while back to mean "goblin" as this enemy and not "orcs".


YaznegSouth40
Rivendell

Nov 9 2012, 10:38pm

Post #7 of 30 (585 views)
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However.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Peter jackson...bless him ..is creating his own take on them and once the movie is viewed by us all we will see what he is up to! Any way I am totally EXCITED for his adaptation on one of ...if not my favorite fictional story of all time!


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2012, 12:02am

Post #8 of 30 (544 views)
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yeah he used them interchangeably earlier on, however I'm pretty (but not 100%) that by the LOTR he referred to goblins as being a bit different to Orcs [In reply to] Can't Post

correct me if I'm wrong people hehe...

--I'm a victim of Bifurcation--
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Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
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Lightice
Lorien

Nov 10 2012, 12:13am

Post #9 of 30 (525 views)
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Well, here's the thing: [In reply to] Can't Post

Goblins and orcs are the same thing. Note the name of Gandalf's sword, Orcrist and its English translation, Goblin-Cleaver. Goblin is just an English translation of orc. I expect that the movies will mix the two terms pretty liberally.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 10 2012, 3:28am

Post #10 of 30 (439 views)
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Orc is just another word for goblin [In reply to] Can't Post

And goblin is another word for orc! Smile


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2012, 3:48am

Post #11 of 30 (429 views)
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I'm excited too [In reply to] Can't Post

So long as I totally separate the 2, book and films. Peter Jackson's Hobbit will surely be a spectacle event and I'm sure the key scenes will be there (altered of course) but it will not be something comparable to Tolkien's hobbit other than the name on the films and book. There have been too many alterations for the 2 to be one and the same in any respect.

But as long as they are totally separate, which IMO they are, I'm excited too Wink


Elthir
Gondor

Nov 10 2012, 4:49am

Post #12 of 30 (449 views)
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Music to my ears [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes! technically Gandalf's sword-name should be Elvish (not that you said otherwise). The inscription on Orcrist in the film reads orkhrist, seemingly based on Grey-elven orch (and the form Orchrist in Etymologies, from which document the filmmakers also lifted another sword-name for The Lord of the Rings films). Orch is also translated 'goblin' in any case.

What's musical to me is that you note that 'goblin' is the English translation. The translation part is often enough left out (I think), but to me it adds force to the idea that there is no difference whatsoever between an orc and a goblin.

For example hobbit and halfling are two words that refer to the same thing, but these are both translations. The relationship between orc and goblin is different, the latter being a translation of the former.

Again not that you said otherwise Smile and not that the films care, or need to.

And not that it matters much either but I would have inscribed orkrist on the blade (for the films), to echo the form in both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Nov 10 2012, 4:51am)


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Nov 10 2012, 6:03pm

Post #13 of 30 (349 views)
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My personal almost biological solution [In reply to] Can't Post

Because I already was part of (felt like 10 but almost) 2 different "Are Orcs and Goblins the same or perhaps different races?"-discussion here on TORn I just want to focus on Peter Jacksons movies this time (not Tolkiens books!!!):

Orcs and Goblins are shown as two different races of the species of orc like the Uruks are a different race/bred of them as well. The LOTR-trilogy showed us that Goblins are the smallest bred of Orc, the first Orcs of Mordor and Isengard were a bit bigger and the Uruk-Hai from Isengard are the biggest race. After watching the Making Of ROTK two days ago I learned that lots of the Orcs from Mordor at the Battle of Minas Tirith were even bigger than the Uruk-Hai and seemed to be the ultimate Orc-Warriors bred, trained and improved long in Mordor with better armor and weapons. On the BluRay EE they were called "Saurons Orcs" or "New Orcs".

And there was a size comparison:
Goblins (small), Orcs (bigger but still smaller than humans), Uruk-Hai (human-sized), "Saurons New Orcs" (a bit larger than humans). I'm not sure if these "New Orcs" were the same as the "Black Uruks" mentioned by Tolkien. But this is movie-canon! Basically they're all the same. "Orc" seems to be the commen word for this species but within this species there are different races. Like us. We're all humans "Homo sapiens sapiens" but within our species there are different races with small or bigger different evolutionary adaptations addicted to our enviroments.

The difference between Peter Jacksons Goblins and Orcs in The Hobbit trilogy is even bigger than it was in LOTR. The Goblins are small, have big eyes, with long arms, big heads, long ears, almost naked. The perfect "underground" Orc. Like a naked mole rat is a perfect "underground" mammal compared to typical mammals like rats, mice or cats.


Of course I didn't ask Peter Jackson about that but if you compare the images we already have seen of Goblins to the ones with Dol Guldur/Gundabad-Orcs on it, I would say that the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were called "Goblins" and the Orcs outside the Misty Mountains were called "Orcs". It is as Peter Jackson tries to build a more realistic Middle-earth where all makes sense in a way... Wink

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."

(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on Nov 10 2012, 6:08pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 10 2012, 6:56pm

Post #14 of 30 (355 views)
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But there were no "goblins" referenced in the LOTR films [In reply to] Can't Post

The Moria orcs were called "orcs" by Legolas, no?


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Nov 10 2012, 7:02pm

Post #15 of 30 (329 views)
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Not in every translation [In reply to] Can't Post

I am from Germany and in our translation Legolas calls them "Orks" when they discover the first arrows after escaping the Watcher in the water. Two weeks ago I watched the original version of FOTR and when Legolas takes the orc-arrow from the dead dwarven body after everybody did realise that there is no living dwarf in Moria (except Gimli) he says "Goblins". Later in Balins Tomb they just say "orcs".

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2012, 7:10pm

Post #16 of 30 (335 views)
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It seems in PJ's films, all Goblins are Orcs, but not all Orcs are Goblins... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Uruk-Hai and the Goblins (the later being seen in Moria) are sub-species of Orc...Uruks being larger and more powerful, Goblins being more stunted and better-equipped for living underground. Then you have your general, garden-variety "Orcs" which are somewhere between Uruk and Goblin.

So, all Goblins would be "Orcs" - thus Legolas referring to the Moria variety as both - but all Orcs could not be called Goblins.

In the light of TH, one might have, through a bit of revisionism, claimed that the Dwarves had been wiped out by Goblins, who'd then left or been driven away from the Balrog, and the things we see in FotR are a breed of Orc who came after...if they'd not been called Goblins by the production team and in all the merchandise. Wink

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Nov 10 2012, 7:12pm

Post #17 of 30 (327 views)
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The Misty Mountains ones work best for me [In reply to] Can't Post

Primarily because Tolkien often described them as fanged, bow-legged, long-armed and squat, with flat noses.


ForestPark
Rivendell


Nov 10 2012, 11:29pm

Post #18 of 30 (290 views)
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Oh but there is [In reply to] Can't Post

Doesn't someone say of Sauraman " He has been breeding orcs with goblin men. " Now that should clear it up !Wink


Elthir
Gondor

Nov 11 2012, 1:24am

Post #19 of 30 (281 views)
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Film canon [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Goblins (small), Orcs (bigger but still smaller than humans), Uruk-Hai (human-sized), "Saurons New Orcs" (a bit larger than humans). I'm not sure if these "New Orcs" were the same as the "Black Uruks" mentioned by Tolkien.




This may be so, if so... but even if so, there are terms for Jackson to employ that don't further feed the misconception that the words orc and goblin carry a distinction.

snaga -- lesser goblin (small)
uruk -- greater goblin (but still smaller than humans)
half-orcs -- human sized goblins

And for an even larger kind (if the films really must), steal Tolkien's 'black uruks' for larger than human-sized goblins

In other words, all terms from the books, without stepping on the orc versus goblin confusion. All the above are orcs (although technically the half-orcs have human blood)... or in English, all the above are 'goblins'.



GothmogTheBalrog
Rivendell


Nov 11 2012, 2:50am

Post #20 of 30 (262 views)
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Goblin-men [In reply to] Can't Post

First off, let me say that the idea of half-goblin, half-human creature makes me nauseous. Second, I believe that the term "goblin" as used in "Goblin-men" means that sometime in there lineage there were orcs. A disgusting thought.


In Reply To
Doesn't someone say of Sauraman " He has been breeding orcs with goblin men. " Now that should clear it up !Wink


"It was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it." ~FotR


Tim
Tol Eressea


Nov 11 2012, 3:43am

Post #21 of 30 (266 views)
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No actually he says "goblins". [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the two terms are interchangeable.

http://www.imsdb.com/...f-the-Ring,-The.html

-Tim came by. Tim! If you had heard only a quarter of what I have heard about him, and I have only heard very little of all there is to hear, you would be prepared for any sort of remarkable tale.


ForestPark
Rivendell


Nov 11 2012, 3:43am

Post #22 of 30 (270 views)
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There is an old saying.. [In reply to] Can't Post

down at the Prancing Pony. 'Oh the orcs all get prettier at closing time ...."


Bombadil
Half-elven


Nov 11 2012, 1:00pm

Post #23 of 30 (251 views)
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LOL/// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Elthir
Gondor

Nov 11 2012, 2:53pm

Post #24 of 30 (231 views)
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You speak that with which I agree [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I think the two terms are interchangeable.




They are, oh Tim. And more than this.

In the darkness of the 1950s few enough men knew what such a word as orc might conjure up within the skull-cap. Or that is to say: many enough there were who cared not for ancient sources, sources that might only hint at the dark secret. And who of men in this murky time had heard the Westron speech in their ears?

But English speakers did thrive in these days, or had throved at least, and 'goblin' they knew and 'goblin' they found, and yet they came to think of 'goblin' in such a way as to better fit a creature of Middle-earth. For goblins did not have soft feet (as some deemed), though goblins they were called.




(This post was edited by Elthir on Nov 11 2012, 2:57pm)


totoro
Lorien

Nov 11 2012, 7:02pm

Post #25 of 30 (208 views)
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I think the terms are interchangeable [In reply to] Can't Post

Certainly, size does not appear to be a distinguishing feature. I remember from the books there were multiple breeds of orc in Sauron's army. I can't remember what he called them, but I remember them as a big "Black Orc" and a small "snuffler" who had a nose impressive enough he could track by scent. I remember the great goblin as being large in the book, though I cannot recall why (I'm looking for a description of his actual size and cannot find it), but goblins generally seemed small.

I assumed for the longest time that orc was a subset of goblin, but I cannot for the life of me trace back why I came to that conclusion.

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