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DeadRabbits
Nargothrond
Nov 2 2012, 12:39pm
Post #1 of 26
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Why did PJ remove the Easterlings from the ROTK?
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This still annoys me to this very day! Why on earth did PJ put the Easterlings in TTT, equipped with the coolest armour you ever saw and those scary war chants, only to cut them from the battle of Pelennor entirely (ok.. you can see them in like a split of a second after the gate breaches, but if you blink you'll miss them).
According to the book Lord of the Rings: Weapons and Warfare the Easterlings were sent through the gate of Minas Tirith as shock troops, after the trolls, so they were in the script at some point. Think about it, how much time did he actually have to devote to the Easterlings? Not that much. It would have taken Gandalf about 5 seconds to mention them to Pippin along with the Haradrim and the Corsairs, and no longer than 30 seconds would have been needed to show them fight inside the walls.
What really bugs me is that PJ, by showing them in TTT, kinda created these expectations and then didn't deliver. So, what was the main reason behind cutting them? Let's hope someone makes a movie about the northern theatre of the War of the Ring, where an army entirely made up of Easterlings attacked Dale and Erebor.
Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought
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ValarNienna
Lindon
Nov 2 2012, 12:52pm
Post #2 of 26
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I've always wanted to read more about the northern battles.
I have never really thought about how they were left out of ROTK but it would have been cool to see more of them. There were other missing parts I would prefer to see more- like the scouring of the shire although I understand why it was left out.
The Easterlings in TTT immediately made me think of Michael Jackson when I saw them and still do every time. The eye make-up and the sheer scarf over their faces like his baby. I could even see him wearing their outfits in stage.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Nov 2 2012, 12:52pm
Post #3 of 26
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1) Time contraints
2) Simplifying the story
Who know's why they even bothered putting them in TTT - they served little purpose, and like you said, are never referenced again.
But since scenes were filmed involving them in ROTK, then I imagine it came down to a timing issue and thus, by removing them, it also helped simplify the story (just like removing Ghan, Imrahil and the Grey Company).
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Elenorflower
Mithlond
Nov 2 2012, 1:23pm
Post #4 of 26
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Its the same reason they didnt show Prince Imrahil and his Swan Knights, at all. 
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DeadRabbits
Nargothrond
Nov 2 2012, 1:36pm
Post #5 of 26
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Haha, yeah they kind of look like MJ! //
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Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Nov 2 2012, 3:30pm
Post #6 of 26
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They serve the purpose of giving some depth to Sauron's evil
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That there are men, as well as orcs, that follow Sauron is a nice detail.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 2 2012, 7:28pm
Post #8 of 26
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I think that the Easterlings should have been more like the Mongol hordes in appearance, not like Japanese samurai.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Nov 2 2012, 7:41pm
Post #9 of 26
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Though with a bit more of a later Crimean Tatar look. Or Kipchaq, who were a Turkic tribe later conquered by the Mongol hordes.
The heavily Japanese-inspired design was baffling, IMO, particularly as the culture of Japan didn't quite enter European consciousness until quite late in history.
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Beutlin
Ossiriand
Nov 2 2012, 8:37pm
Post #10 of 26
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I certainly can understand your viewpoint that the peoples of Middle-Earth...
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...should reflect cultures that were known to the Anglo-Saxons during the Early Middle Ages. I would however exempt the other races from this rule a little bit (and even the Dunedain to a certain degree). Dwarves, elves and orcs were vastly different from the mortal men. Therefore for example I liked the use of certain Far Eastern instruments in the scenes with the elves.
The Easterlings somehow resembled Yari Ashigaru of the Sengoku period - and that's a little bit of base if one follows your rule. Having said that, Crimean tatars or Kipchaks respectively entered English documents centuries after the end of the Early Middle Ages (ending in England roughly around 1066). I think a better model for the Easterlings would have been the Huns, the Avars or even the Magyars.
Ceterum censeo montem artis magicae atrae esse delendum.
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Nov 2 2012, 9:08pm
Post #11 of 26
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I agree that Hun, Magyar and Avar-inspired designs would be most appropriate
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But for some reason, Turkic tribes, and those of the Crimean Khanates, always came to mind when reading about the Easterlings. This is possibly because there is something rather Byzantine about Gondor. So I often saw Minas Tirith during the War of the Ring as reminiscent of Constantinople being threatened by Turkic tribes in the Near East.
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Beutlin
Ossiriand
Nov 2 2012, 11:39pm
Post #13 of 26
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I concur with the Gondorian-Byzantine connection.
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However, you do not necessarily need Turkic tribes to enforce this similarity. Constantinople was besieged by the Avars and their Slavic tributaries in 626, and the Bulgarians (another semi-nomadic tribe of the Eastern Europe steppe, which I have not mentioned before) tried to sack the city in 813. In fact, the Bulgarians used to be a constant threat for the Romans until the early 11th century, therefore being a much older enemy than the Turks or other Central Asian tribes. Personally I always compared Gondor to this particular period of the Roman Empire, rather than the one of the Palaoilogoi dynasty: At the time Constantinople was still a great power on its own, but the glory days of Justinian or the ceasars of old had long faded. Land had to be given to tributaries in the West and greater empires threatened the sheer existence of the state. Whereas the Byzantine Empire after the sacking of the city in 1204 was just a small regional power.
(PS: Sorry for rambling on here, but I am studying history at university, and this is one of my favorite periods.)
Ceterum censeo montem artis magicae atrae esse delendum.
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Ereinion Nénharma
Menegroth
Nov 2 2012, 11:43pm
Post #14 of 26
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...this makes me wonder if there possibly were different ethinicities in the races of Dwarves, Elves and Hobbits? Or wizards?
Were there, for example 'African' dwarves or 'Asian' elves?
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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Thorins_apprentice
Nargothrond
Nov 2 2012, 11:46pm
Post #15 of 26
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I would have loved to see an African dwarf in the hobbit.
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 What a missed opportunity.Chiwetel Ejiofor would be perfect.Dwarves stayed out of the sunlight and underground so they would have had light skin
We are more connected than ever before, more able to spread our ideas and beliefs, our anger and fears. As we exercise the right to advocate our views, and as we animate our supporters, we must all assume responsibility for our words and actions before they enter a vast echo chamber and reach those both serious and delirious, connected and unhinged.
(This post was edited by Thorins_apprentice on Nov 2 2012, 11:48pm)
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Nov 2 2012, 11:58pm
Post #16 of 26
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It's just that Minas Tirith reminds me of Contantinople in its later days, when the basileus' were growing weak, and Turkic tribes were threatening (with the Ottomans finally succeeding).
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Beutlin
Ossiriand
Nov 3 2012, 12:00am
Post #17 of 26
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In Tolkien's legendarium at least, there were none.
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Although it is perfectly fine to include them in your own imagination. But I did not mean this with my statement from above. The inclusion of certain elements, which were in no way known to the Anglo-Saxons - or even anachronistic - for the other races, gives them an otherworldly vibe. They were so different from the mortal men of Middle-Earth that their culture could not just be a reflection of other cultures of the early Middle Ages. Therefore I liked the use of particular instruments for the elves, and I even liked the Naginata swords of the Galadhrim. By including these anachronistic details, the Elves stood out in a positive way. Nevertheless I have to agree with Shelob's Appetite here (who should have known, that it comes to this once!) that the Easterlings should have better resembled tribes of Eastern Europe, not foot-soldiers of feudal Japan. But then again, there presence in the film is rather limited, so they do not bother me at all.
Ceterum censeo montem artis magicae atrae esse delendum.
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Nov 3 2012, 12:04am
Post #18 of 26
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The non-human peoples of Middle Earth are primarily mythic representations of "forgotten" peoples, or spirits, mined and resurrected from the empty spaces in the Anglo-Saxon collective conscience. So I would say no, there were no Asian or African elves or dwarves.
But people should feel free to believe there were.
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Beutlin
Ossiriand
Nov 3 2012, 12:19am
Post #19 of 26
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If you just concentrate on the capital of Minas Tirith, I would agree with you.
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Both cities - Minas Tirith and Constantinople - faced a severe decrease in population levels at that time. Both of them were the easternmost castle - all the land left to rule lay in the West. Having said that, Gondor as a whole resembles an earlier period of the Empire, in my opinion - especially when you think about the fact, that Middle-Earth bears the greatest historical resemblance to the Early Middle Ages. Gondor still had the strength to defend itself against many attacks at the time, whereas the downfall of Constantinople was only a matter of time in the early 15th century. Concerning their respective enemies I would say that the Haradrim reminded me rather more of the Arabs and Turks, whereas the Easterlings (who had attacked Gondor more often in its earlier history and did not play such an important part in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields as their Southern allies.) always reminded me of the Eastern European tribes of old - especially the Avars and the Bulgarians.
Ceterum censeo montem artis magicae atrae esse delendum.
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Starling
Gondolin
Nov 3 2012, 1:11am
Post #20 of 26
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I always think they have an '80's music video look
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Every time they appear I think, 'here comes the New Romantic Army'. They would fit perfectly in a Spandau Ballet video.
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Ereinion Nénharma
Menegroth
Nov 3 2012, 8:42am
Post #21 of 26
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It's too bad we know so few about the world outside of Middle Earth. For example, if there were no dwarves, elves and hobbits out there (which indeed seems to be the case), why weren't there? And were there orcs and trolls? Or was it 'just' men, like today's continents? That would be a bit boring for a fantasy world, wouldn't it?
But I'm going way offtopic now, thanks all for your replies :)
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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imin
Doriath
Nov 3 2012, 9:02am
Post #22 of 26
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I think there were some dwarf colonies/tribes out in the East
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Four Fathers of Dwarves were laid to rest in the far east, two of them at the northern end of the Orocarni, and the other two near the southern end of the range. These founded the lines of the Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks and Stonefoots.
So there were dwarves way out east but they just dont come into the tales of Middle-earth that Tolkien wrote about.
Maybe you could make up some tales about those lines/colonies/tribes of dwarves yourself - expand the mythology!
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Ereinion Nénharma
Menegroth
Nov 3 2012, 9:28am
Post #23 of 26
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...you're right about those dwarves! I had totally forgotten them!
Well, I might just do that :)
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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Kendalf
Nargothrond
Nov 3 2012, 2:28pm
Post #24 of 26
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Minas Tirith as Constantinople?
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This is possibly because there is something rather Byzantine about Gondor. So I often saw Minas Tirith during the War of the Ring as reminiscent of Constantinople being threatened by Turkic tribes in the Near East.
Whilst your and Beutlin's discussions of the parallels between Minas Tirith and Constantinople have been both fascinating, enjoyable and enlightening  , I'd always thought, given Tolkien's confession that Mordor was "Roughly the Balkans", that Minas Tirith was actually much farther to the west than Constantinople. In my mind, she is just as likely to represent the fading Rome.
http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/.../06/middle-earth.jpg
In this scenario, historical parallels for the Easterlings might be the Visigoths (sacked Rome in 410), Vandals (sacked Rome in 455) and Ostrogoths (sacked Rome in 546).
Still, I think what we can all agree on is that going quite as far east as Japan in search of inspiration was a little too far, right? I suspect one perfectly innocent explanation for this might be the simple fact that, for an NZ film-maker, the central Asiatic steppes aren't to the east; they're way, way west! Add to this the ubiquitous and powerful association of the term "The East" with the Orient, and I think we have our answer, no?
"Show...a little more respect...for faerie tales, Riskbreaker."
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Beutlin
Ossiriand
Nov 3 2012, 5:45pm
Post #25 of 26
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Amon Sűl and Bree are to the east of the Shire, not to the north. It is my impression that the creator of this map tried a little bit too hard to show the similarities between Europe and Middle-Earth, thereby altering the geographic outlook of these subcontinents.
Let us quote Tolkien on this matter:
"The action of the story takes place in the North-west of 'Middle-earth', equivalent in latitude to the coastlands of Europe and the north shores of the Mediterranean. ... If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy."
Mind you, Tolkien only compared Middle-Earth and Europe from a geographical point of view in this letter. Tolkien does not say that Minas Tirith looks similar to Florence and/or that the Gondorians resemble Southern Europeans. The only race/culture in Middle-Earth that specifically resembles a real culture from our history are the hobbits. Tolkien referred to them as an ideal representation of 19th century English country folk. Although the Rohirrim bear a great resemblance to the Anglo-Saxons, Tolkien specifically stated in the appendix of the "lord of the Rings":
"This linguistic procedure does not imply that the Rohirrim closely resembled the ancient English otherwise, in culture or art, in weapons or modes of warfare, except in a general way due to their circumstances: a simpler and more primitive people living in contact with a higher and more venerable culture, and occupying lands that had once been part of its domain."
In other words, Tolkien would have probably dismissed our comparison between Constantinople and Minas Tirith, if we had claimed that there were similarities between them in architecture, culture, language, warfare. Likewise, he would have probably admitted that they bear a resemblance in a general way: Both successors of greater empires/cities, faced with powerful enemies to the east, and most importantly a sence of (anachronistic) pride in the belief that one was the respective heir of a superpower.
There are many other cities in the old world which bear a resemblance to Minas Tirith: Rome or Vienna comes to mind. But Minas Tirith was not the first capital of Gondor, it only became so when the empire started to crumble - Rome seized to be the capital of its empire more than a century before the Goths sacked it. In the 5th century the capital of the Western Roman Empire was at times Milan, at other times Ravenna - the city on the seven hills only remained as the symbolic heart of the Imperium, similar to Osgiliath.
Ceterum censeo montem artis magicae atrae esse delendum.
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