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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Attack on Rhosgobel?

LordElrond
Rivendell


Oct 11 2012, 6:30am

Post #1 of 25 (2257 views)
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Attack on Rhosgobel? Can't Post

The trailer shows something breaking through the roof of Rhosgobel, this will be in film1 otherwise it wouldn't have been shown in the trailer. I'm wondering where these scenes will fit? could there be some kind of Radagast side story? If it's true and film1 now ends just after "out of the frying pan" then the company won't have anything to do with Radagast or Mirkwood until film2. How do you think Rhosgobel (Radagast healing hedgehogs, the rabbit sled, the attack) will be relevant to the overall plot of film1?


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 11 2012, 7:14am

Post #2 of 25 (1307 views)
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The thing breaking into Rhosgobel is ... [In reply to] Can't Post

A Mirkwood spider. Warner Bros. gave this away a couple of months a go when there was a competetion. You had a series of multiple choice questions, one of which was something along the lines of : "which creature attacked Radagast at Rhosgobel?" Not being in the book, it confused a lot of people!

Some have speculated that this is fairly early on in AUJ - the spiders destroy his home, leading to Radagast fleeing. This may be the reason Radagast and Gandalf bump into each other near Trollshaws - perhaps Radagast is seeking Gandalf for aid?

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LordElrond
Rivendell


Oct 11 2012, 8:06am

Post #3 of 25 (1021 views)
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Interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought Gandalf would meet Radagast at Rhosgobel after leaving the company at the edge of Mirkwood. In the trailer Radagast says something like "a dark power has found it's way back into the world", I assume some dark power is responsible for injuring the hedgehogs and this will set up the Necromancer storyline. If the spider attack on Rhosgobel does indeed happen early on forcing Radagast to head West then I wonder how it will work in context with Bilbo's story.


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 11 2012, 8:16am

Post #4 of 25 (1129 views)
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There's many options [In reply to] Can't Post

Since we know very little about the White Council & Dol Guldur sub-plot.

1) Radagast has a growing concern for the "growing darkness" in Mirkwood. Spiders attack early on in the film. Radagast flees on bunny sled.
1a) He flees, but then returns to Rhosgobel, after the attack. Radagast and Gandalf search the Ringwraith tombs.
1b) He flees, in search of aid. He finds Gandalf, they search the Ringwraith tombs. He returns to Rhosgobel.
1c) He flees, he doesn't return to Rhosgobel.
1d) He doesn't flee, but fights the spiders. Defeating them, he leaves for aid. Bumping into Gandalf, and so on.

2) Radagast has a growing concern for the "growing darkness" in Mirkwood. Bumps into Gandalf. They search the Ringwraith tombs. Radagast returns home.
2a) Gandalf meets up with Radagast at Rhosgobel, they go to Dol Guldur.
2ai) The spiders attack in AUJ
2ai*) Radagast dies
2ai**) Radagast doesn't die
2aii) The spiders attack some time later
2aii*) Radagast dies
2aii**)Radagast doesn't die
2b) Gandalf meets Radagast somewhere in Mirkwood, they go to Dol Guldur.
2bi) Radagast enters Dol Guldur with Gandalf
2bi*) He dies
2bi**) He doesn't die
2bi***) He's captured, flees, or other
2bii) Radagast doesn't enter Dol Guldur, goes back to Rhosgobel
2bii*) The spiders attack
2bii**) He does, or does not die.

My head hurts.

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(This post was edited by DanielLB on Oct 11 2012, 8:20am)


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 11 2012, 8:35am

Post #5 of 25 (1033 views)
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How about this? [In reply to] Can't Post

(I'm assuming the Gandalf-Radagast meeting doesn't take place in the Trollshaws, but was just filmed at the same time).

1) At the white council meeting in Rivendell, Gandalf asks why Radagast hasn't been invited (giving the"master of shapes and changes of hue" line). Saruman replies with his "Radagst the Bird-Tamer, Radagast the Simple, Radagast the Fool" line. We then cut to Rhosgobel.

2) At Rhosgobel Radagast is caring for some hedghogs when he is attacked by giant spiders, fleeing by bunny-sled.

3) Later, Gandalf & Co is trapped up a burning tree by wargs and goblins. The Moth appears, and they are rescued by eagles, who fly them to the aerie.

4) At the aerie, Radagast appears. He sent out the eagles to look for Gandalf. Looking out over distant Mirkwood, the wizards discuss the darkness that has fallen on the forest. Roll end credits.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

(This post was edited by Fardragon on Oct 11 2012, 8:36am)


LordElrond
Rivendell


Oct 11 2012, 9:05am

Post #6 of 25 (870 views)
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LOL!! [In reply to] Can't Post

you're right there are so many options and at this point we know very little. I agree with the Fardragon who said we could cut to Radagast at home during a scene where other members of the white council are talking about him at Rivendell, it would make more sense than to cut to Radagast from at BagEnd or any other time before Rivendell. This Barrow Downs/Trollshaw business makes it all even more complicated though, my heads starting to hurt too.


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 11 2012, 9:08am

Post #7 of 25 (877 views)
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That seems likely ... why didn't I think of that?! / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 11 2012, 11:18am

Post #8 of 25 (718 views)
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Additional [In reply to] Can't Post

Radagast may even be shown for the first time accompanying Gandalf as far as Dol Guldur when he makes the Thrain visit there (presumably in flashback).

LR


stoutfiles
Rohan

Oct 11 2012, 11:47am

Post #9 of 25 (792 views)
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Highly doubt he'll say that [In reply to] Can't Post

"Saruman replies with his "Radagst the Bird-Tamer, Radagast the Simple, Radagast the Fool" line"

Saruman only said that when had completely turned in LOTR and was outwardly embracing his allegiance with Sauron. I don't think he'd want to insult Radagast in front of the entire council while he's still working with them.

Then again, the guy has a bunny sled and walks around with poop in his hair so it may just be a known fact.



Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Oct 11 2012, 12:14pm

Post #10 of 25 (721 views)
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But something like that? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think too that Saruman is not able to afford to make fun of Radagast in front of Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf together (and possible other members of the council) even he is the councils head.

BUT I think he is going to say something like a snide remark in one of the movies that makes the audience (who didn't read the books) clear that he doesn't like Radagast at all. Perhaps there is a single confrontation between him and Gandalf after a council meeting where the grey wizard asks his orders head if it wouldn't be good do ask the brown wizard for help. And then Saruman could say something like "Radagast is just playing with his animal-friends. He is useless as Pallando and Alatar were." So the blue wizards got their mention and everybody would be happy and know that Saruman doesn't like Radagast ;)

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 11 2012, 12:23pm

Post #11 of 25 (718 views)
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Can he outwardly dislike Radagast, but still be overall "nice"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure he can.

I don't see a problem in that.

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DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 11 2012, 12:52pm

Post #12 of 25 (782 views)
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An Updated Theory [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is another, very simple way to resolve many of these seeming contradictions: AUJ ends just after the spider battle in Mirkwood. In a previous thread I also mentioned the trailer scene where Radagast, clearly inside Rhosgobel, warns of a "dark power". The question was and is, who is he speaking to? Gandalf? But Gandalf doesn't come near Mirkwood/Rhosgobel until after the break that everyone is assuming (just after the eagle rescue). In that thread I theorized that he might even be speaking to Legolas and Tauriel, as messengers from Thranduil-- that would give them a reason to go patrolling Mirkwood in the first place. I wrote that those two could then go "kick some serious spider butt"; now that the Lego set ads are out, that prediction seems to be accurate. Thus emboldened, here is an updated theory:

- If the first movie ends after the spider battle, wherein it is actually Legolas and Tauriel who kill most of the spiders, then we have a nice triple cliffhanger: Tauriel, Legolas, and the rest of the Elves capture the Dwarves and lead them away; Bilbo, using the ring, is left behind in agony of what to do; and Gandalf and Radagast, over at Rhosgobel, are attacked by the spider(s).
- Bilbo has his climactic moment, as he kills his spider and names his sword Sting.

-This assumption of AUJ ending at the Carrock has always seemed rather weak, dramatically. Plus there is now all this merchandise, from both Bridge Direct and Lego, featuring Legolas and Tauriel, and the spider battle. Are people really going to spend $30-$60 for Christmas gifts based on characters that aren't in the movie? The kids will be so confused that the parents will have to go spend another $20 on GI Joe with Kung-Fu Grip or something to make up for it. The lame explanation for all the toys has been that they were made, and marketing plans set in place, long before the decision to expand to 3 movies. But how difficult would it really have been to delay the release of those products?
-This theory doesn't contradict the new official poster: Barrels Out of Bond is still cut from AUJ and will now be seen in DOS. Mirkwood never appeared in either poster.
-The only thing contradicting this theory is that the names Orlando Bloom and Evangeline Lilly no longer appear on the "official" website. But that could easily be explained: the website is after all run by the financing company (Warner Bros.) overseeing the production company (New Line) supervising the film company (Wingnut) that is making the movies. When Peter Jackson pitched the 3 film idea to Warner Bros. in July, they no doubt wanted to know immediately how he would now break up the films. At that point in time he could have indicated "after the eagles' rescue", and WB's advertising department ran with it. But Jackson should have the freedom to break the films where he wishes, so the web site information should not be taken as the last word.
-Thoughts?

(This post was edited by Ataahua on Oct 11 2012, 6:18pm)


stoutfiles
Rohan

Oct 11 2012, 12:54pm

Post #13 of 25 (663 views)
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It would seem unlikely [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering Saruman uses Radagast's animals in LOTR as spies. Why would Radagast help Saruman if he actively disliked him, and then let that be known to everyone?


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 11 2012, 1:00pm

Post #14 of 25 (643 views)
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In the book it wouldn't make sense [In reply to] Can't Post

Since Radagast is asked by Saruman to get Gandalf. If they both disliked each other, then it doesn't make any sense.

But this is the film ... and things can be changed very easily.

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Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Oct 11 2012, 1:02pm

Post #15 of 25 (691 views)
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But it would contradict the new banner and cast list... [In reply to] Can't Post

seeing as how Beorn has been removed from both

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Oct 11 2012, 1:19pm

Post #16 of 25 (654 views)
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And after all Saruman is Radagasts head of order... [In reply to] Can't Post

Well they have to work together and I think it's not a secret that Saruman dislike Radagast. If I remember it correctly he already was against the choice of Radagast being one of the Istari following him to Middle earth. But all in all they are all part of the same order and follow the same goal (till LOTR). They have to work together although they don't like each other. And after all Saruman is Radagasts head of order. He is his boss so to speak.

And tell me: What usual employee still works for his boss even if he doesn't like him? A lot do. Radagast helps Saruman in FOTR because he is fooled by him. He thought it was for a good reason and later he rescued Gandalf when he saw that he was fooled. He made up for his mistake.

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 11 2012, 1:31pm

Post #17 of 25 (658 views)
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Same explanation, [In reply to] Can't Post

...just add the name Mikael Persbrandt where I listed Orlando Bloom and Evangeline Lilly. The main idea is that WB updated
their cast list in July, but that the information is not set in stone: roughly 60 days passed between the changes and the second trailer, plenty of time
to finalize the break. Note also that this would cut approximately 20 minutes from AUJ (we would not see the Elvening's Gate, Thranduil, the Dwarves' imprisonment, Bilbo's actions, the wine room scene, and the barrel escape.)

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.



Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Oct 11 2012, 1:36pm

Post #18 of 25 (647 views)
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No, because L&T never made it onto the scroll [In reply to] Can't Post

Beorn, however, was on there, and then they cut it at the point immediately before him. That is a deliberate statement. It could be forgiven if Bloom and Lily were simply left off of the cast list because their characters are minor (though I would be surprised given the fame of both actors), but Beorn is too important to the plot for them to leave out Persbrandt.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 11 2012, 2:12pm

Post #19 of 25 (611 views)
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Again, same explanation. [In reply to] Can't Post

The theory was that Warner Bros. based the new banner and cast list on the best information they had at the time. It doesn't
matter that Beorn is a "major" character and Legolas and Tauriel are "minor" characters. Again, this is all theory, with the
purpose of explaining seeming contradictions arising from other sources, such as the trailer showing scenes inside Rhosgobel,
near Mirkwood.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Oct 11 2012, 2:26pm

Post #20 of 25 (657 views)
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Sorry, Dweller, but I think you are in denial... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Here is another, very simple way to resolve many of these seeming contradictions: AUJ ends just after the spider battle in Mirkwood. In a previous thread I also mentioned the trailer scene where Radagast, clearly inside Rhosgobel, warns of a "dark power". The question was and is, who is he speaking to? Gandalf? But Gandalf doesn't come near Mirkwood/Rhosgobel until after the break that everyone is assuming (just after the eagle rescue). In that thread I theorized that he might even be speaking to Legolas and Tauriel, as messengers from Thranduil-- that would give them a reason to go patrolling Mirkwood in the first place. I wrote that those two could then go "kick some serious spider butt"; now that the Lego set ads are out, that prediction seems to be accurate.

I think that it has been adequately explained that the Mirkwood-related toys and toy sets were approved when the two-film structure was still official. Given Jackson's announcement that AUJ would end after the rescue by the eagles, the introduction of the company to Beorn is just too logical a way to start off DoS to ignore. The deletion of Persbrant, Bloom and Lilly from the cast list is further confirmation.

'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 11 2012, 2:39pm

Post #21 of 25 (565 views)
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You don't have to like someone in order to work with them! [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyway, Radagast seems to be something of an innocent. He could be completely oblivious to the disdain Saruman has for him.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 11 2012, 2:54pm

Post #22 of 25 (612 views)
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If Peter Jackson made such an announcement, [In reply to] Can't Post

...then obviously the film would end where we all assume it will from the new banner. But to my knowledge, Jackson has made no
such announcement. If he had, all this discussion would be moot. The new banner was made by Warner Bros. and as such is not
an "announcement" by Peter Jackson.

Again, this is just speculation designed to reconcile some seeming contradictions, and as such is probably wrong- it just always seemed
strange to me to end the first film at that point, hence the theory that the banner / cast list changes may have been provisional.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Oct 11 2012, 3:41pm

Post #23 of 25 (557 views)
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Nothing on PJ's Facebook page... [In reply to] Can't Post

I had thought that Jackson had posted something about where AUJ ends there, but apparently I was mistaken. However the synopsis of the film at the official website suggests that it ends not long after Bilbo's encounter with Gollum, from which we can infer that the Eagle escape will be the climax.

'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 11 2012, 6:26pm

Post #24 of 25 (451 views)
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The app also [In reply to] Can't Post

Removes specific reference to Beorn and Mirkwood (this in September).

I can't think of any other reason to fillet these two specific words out of the text.

I'm not sure I see any issue with Radagast. He gives every appearance of talking to himself in the trailer and Jackson has already established that he will show the audience scenes where his main characters are not around.

LR


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 12 2012, 7:32am

Post #25 of 25 (325 views)
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He probably talks to all his animal friends [In reply to] Can't Post

and in Middle Earth, some of them might talk back.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

 
 

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