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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Those with concerns...
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 8 2012, 8:39pm

Post #101 of 135 (2374 views)
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Absolutely correct. [In reply to] Can't Post

And exactly what I stated earlier on in this thread:

"Though the answer as it seems to me is that we simply do not know why Tolkien chose the name or what it meant in his mind. As ever I would very much argue it is open to interpretation."

Perhaps you missed it.

And I don't follow what your point is regarding the barrow wights. I'm not sure your random copy and pasting is helping the argument to come across, for me anyway.

LR


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 8 2012, 8:55pm

Post #102 of 135 (2277 views)
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the point is [In reply to] Can't Post

the Barrow wights were not, nor ever were, raised from the dead, they are long dead evil spirits or demons that inhabit the dead (and sometimes living) but there is no necromancy involved.


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 8 2012, 9:07pm

Post #103 of 135 (2251 views)
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Good grief. [In reply to] Can't Post

Whether or not that fits with one's definition of necromancy is neither here nor there (though to say "there is no necromancy involved" is again an entirely personal view)

If you remember you said:

"but still I see no mention of actually raising and reanimating dead corpses.. I merely see possession of the living be they human or animal by a dead spirit..."

The barrow wights are clearly an example of this. They are corpses re-animated by evil spirits (on the impetus of the WK, probably).

You seem to be arguing against the proposition that Tolkien's meaning of the term "The Necromancer" must have included the idea of raising the dead because of the existance of the barrow wights. No such proposition has been suggested.

LR


Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Oct 9 2012, 12:23am

Post #104 of 135 (2191 views)
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Reanimating the Dead [In reply to] Can't Post

If anyone is "reanimating the dead" in this thread, it's a self-anointed Tolkien Purist putting words in the Professor's mouth from the grave.

This discussion is a classic example of using "It's not in the Spirit of Tolkien" as a club to hammer home a purely personal point of view. If fans don't end up liking Jackson's depiction of the undead in The Hobbit, they have every right to complain. But Tolkien, not Jackson, gave Sauron the name, "The Necromancer." So without ANY notes or letters from the Professor on the parameters of Sauron's necromancy, PJ and Company can't be criticized for deviating from the "Spirit of Tolkien."


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 9 2012, 12:43am

Post #105 of 135 (2306 views)
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Yeah I know [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien had so many undead walking around in middle earth didn't he? I clearly must have missed all his work on Zombie orcs and undead... Crazy But as long as PJ putting them in makes you happy that's all that matters I suppose Tongue


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 9 2012, 1:21am

Post #106 of 135 (2199 views)
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Who would have thought [In reply to] Can't Post

that they might put Zombies in the Hobbit.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Oct 9 2012, 1:23am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 9 2012, 4:47am

Post #107 of 135 (2175 views)
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That is a type of Necromancy and zombiedom, though. I don't mean to challange [In reply to] Can't Post

your general notion, and I generally agree with you on many things, but a dead body/ a corpse that is re-animated by an evil spirit/unhoused demon, is still for all intents and purposes a zombie or otherwise undead/living dead creature. I think it is common enough in zombie and undead lore that the creature shuffling, or creeping about to drink the blood and devour the flesh of the living is NOT your dearly departed friend Eddie. As so many books, movies and stories would put it, "That isn't Eddie. Not anymore!" The Spirit moving the bones is the method of re-animation and the technical truth of the undead creature, but on the surface it is still, for all intents and purposes, an undead/living dead monster.

In Reply To
the Barrow wights were not, nor ever were, raised from the dead, they are long dead evil spirits or demons that inhabit the dead (and sometimes living) but there is no necromancy involved.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 9 2012, 7:36am

Post #108 of 135 (2250 views)
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It's zombies in particular which don't seem very Tolkien-ish [In reply to] Can't Post

We have unsubstantial ghosts, living beings that have faded, and possibly evils spirits using corpses as puppets.

We don't see the D&D idea of flesh-robots: animated corpses with no mind or spirit at all. Nor do we see a specific spirit of a dead being reanimating it's own corpse, as appears to be the case with Azog.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 9 2012, 11:34am

Post #109 of 135 (2238 views)
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It seems that you have missed them. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien has animated corpses, undead wraiths and ghosts.

LR


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 9 2012, 11:59pm

Post #110 of 135 (2081 views)
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Yet, for all intents and purposes, I think that most people would still consider [In reply to] Can't Post

a dead body re-animated by an evil spirit to be, essentially, a zombie, unless the spirit started doing things well beyond normal zombie behaviour. . . then it might be deemed a lich, a ghoul, a vampire, a haint etc. etc., but, in any event, undead and or living dead still seems to apply well enough, though I am not particularly keen on the idea of an undead Azog running around.

In Reply To
We have unsubstantial ghosts, living beings that have faded, and possibly evils spirits using corpses as puppets.

We don't see the D&D idea of flesh-robots: animated corpses with no mind or spirit at all. Nor do we see a specific spirit of a dead being reanimating it's own corpse, as appears to be the case with Azog.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Oct 10 2012, 12:59am

Post #111 of 135 (2135 views)
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LOL [In reply to] Can't Post

Lacrimae Rerum wrote: Tolkien has animated corpses, undead wraiths and ghosts.

Don't confuse these Tolkien scholars with the facts, LR. Smile


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 10 2012, 3:47am

Post #112 of 135 (2107 views)
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You two can be so mean, lolol [In reply to] Can't Post

So many zingers in your posts. lol.

In Reply To
Lacrimae Rerum wrote: Tolkien has animated corpses, undead wraiths and ghosts.

Don't confuse these Tolkien scholars with the facts, LR. Smile


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


elostirion74
Rohan

Oct 10 2012, 3:34pm

Post #113 of 135 (2076 views)
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evidence [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but looking at the evidence we see that Tolkien never wrote about Sauron raising orcs from the dead. Why then should such an invention be made in a film, when the orcs clearly fill a very different purpose in Middle Earth than being a supernatural enemy? If the film makers wanted more supernatural, undead enemies, they can use creatures from Norse folk tales, which fit Tolkien's world better than typical zombies, like Barrow-wights.

The Barrow-wights are the only creatures described that really fit the bill of creatures similar to zombies. I don't agree that Nazgūl and Barrow-wights are the same either. The Nazgūl are men who end up being controlled by Sauron through their possession of The Nine rings, who live beyond their span because of their Rings, and who devote themselves to sorcery and black arts and gradually become more and more ensnared by Sauron's deceits and phantoms. When speaking about the Nazgūl, it's most helpful IMO to look at what Tolkien wrote about how a Ring of Power affects mortals ("The shadow of the past" and to look at what Aragorn and Gandalf says about their nature ("A knife in the dark", "Many meetings") and what is written about their origin in The Silmarillion. It's true that the Nazgūl don't live in the waking world like ordinary people do and are not alive in the ordinary sense, but they have never actually died and then been re-animated from the grave either.

But anyway all of this is very theoretical since we do not know anything about what will actually be in the film. I don't even know if there will be an undead Azog or Nazgūls rising from crypts or in what context we will see it, so I'll just treat these unconfirmed rumours for what they are for the present.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 10 2012, 4:51pm

Post #114 of 135 (2076 views)
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Thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

at least your post is civil and not condescending, Smile

wish I could be correct 100% of the time like others around here even though it is OPINION plus I still have yet to find Zombies by today's standards, Although I can see where people can twist evil spirits possessing corpses into Zombies because that is what they want Crazy


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 10 2012, 9:04pm

Post #115 of 135 (2144 views)
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Why not call it an Orc-wight [In reply to] Can't Post

If the term zombie is the difficulty. It is, after all, a term applied only by us.

Some Orcs may well have been "supernatural", however, in the sense of being maiar.

I agree with all you have said about the Nazgul. Tolkien does use the term "undead" of them (well the WK at least).

LR


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 10 2012, 9:20pm

Post #116 of 135 (2213 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Some Orcs may well have been "supernatural", however, in the sense of being maiar.

you would think Tolkien would have mentioned them if there were.Angelic



Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 10 2012, 9:27pm

Post #117 of 135 (2066 views)
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I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien would have mentioned them?

LR


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 10 2012, 9:32pm

Post #118 of 135 (2079 views)
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Orcs or as they were referred to in the Hobbit Goblins [In reply to] Can't Post

having supernatural powers.... I don't recall reading about any


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 10 2012, 9:38pm

Post #119 of 135 (2178 views)
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Have you read Morgoth's Ring? [In reply to] Can't Post

You can also find references online. The only "supernatural" power referred to is longevity, but maiar are themselves supernatural.

LR


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 10 2012, 9:46pm

Post #120 of 135 (2089 views)
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were talking common place orcs and Goblins here [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't remember the names Azog or Bolg being mentioned in there..But I will admit its been a while....Even if they were mentioned in HoME as being supernatural, since it's not in the appendices of LOTR or the Hobbit story proper Jackson can't use any of the HoME material without risk of getting sued.


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Oct 10 2012, 9:47pm)


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 10 2012, 9:54pm

Post #121 of 135 (2147 views)
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I don't follow. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm referring to the possibility that some Orcs may have been supernatural in the sense that they were maiar, in response to the suggestion that orcs serve an entirely non-supernatural purpose in the stories.

You then said that you thought Tolkien would have mentioned this but now, presumably, realise that he did and embarked on another non-sequitur.

What have the names Azog, Bolg or the film rights got to do with the above?

LR


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 10 2012, 10:09pm

Post #122 of 135 (2050 views)
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where in the hobbit or the appendices did he mention them? [In reply to] Can't Post

I must be missing that in the material the Peter Jackson is allowed to use... HoME is off limits to be used for his films. We are discussing the films and the material they can use for said films here. In the material PJ is allowed to use I see no mention of Zombie Orcs/Goblins or supernatural orcs anywhere. Personaly I don't care what Peter Jackson wants to include, its about what he can include, the Tolkien estate can sue him for using material outside the Hobbit and LOTR. You really think he's gonna take that chance? I'll buy that theory of Zombie orcs or supernatural orcs if you can point it out in the text that Jackson is allowed to use, the Hobbit and LOTR. Just find me one sentence where it refers to Azog or Bolg as being anything other than ordinary run of the mill large powerful goblins/orcs. Heck just find me a sentence about Bolg being "the torturer of Dol Guldur". Otherwise I think the idea is bogus and nothing at all in the "spirit of Tolkien"


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 10 2012, 10:22pm

Post #123 of 135 (2082 views)
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I can't quite believe that you cannot follow the thread of the argument. [In reply to] Can't Post

And therefore can only assume you are being obtuse, as the alternative would be unkind.

If you would like a separate discussion on whether Azog is a likely candidate for a Maia-Orc and how the films might allude to similar ideas without encountering rights issues, I would be happy to have it. You might perhaps find and read the relevant essays first and then we can discuss.

LR


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 10 2012, 10:26pm

Post #124 of 135 (2001 views)
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no I follow [In reply to] Can't Post

I want specifics in the text that Jackson is allowed to use. Thats all essays and information not included in those sources simply do not matter since Peter Jackson can not use them. This pertains to the films not what Tolkien wrote in his many other writings. Pertains to the films and what can be used in them. or are you missing the point?


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 10 2012, 10:36pm

Post #125 of 135 (2009 views)
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No it is not pertaining to the films. If you go back and re-read you will see that. [In reply to] Can't Post

It is regarding the abstract purpose of Orcs in the stories.

However, when you have read the essays, I will be happy to discuss in the context of the films and to be specific, as I said, how Jackson might be able to allude to ideas which are in HOME without running into rights issues.

Unless we go and read then we are speaking from a position of ignorance.

LR

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