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Saelind
Menegroth
Nov 2 2007, 3:11am
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Chapter 2 The Shadow of the Past VI
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Life and death
Another now well-known passage:
“’What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature, when he had the chance!’
‘Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity.’
‘I am sorry, ‘ said Frodo. ‘But I am frightened; and I do not feel any pity for Gollum.’
‘You have not seen him,’ Gandalf broke in.
‘No, and I don’t want to,’ said Frodo. ‘I can’t understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves, have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? Now at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death.’
‘Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many-yours not least. In any case we did not kill him; he is very old and very wretched. The Wood-elves have him in prison, but they treat him with such kindness as they can find in their wise hearts.’”
For those of us who watched the movies, did you remember these lines from the book and did you remember their original placement? Other comments?
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 2 2007, 5:57pm
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Pity is scorned in the modern world.
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We don't want to be pitied, because we consider all men to be equal, and pity a sign of hierarchy. We might want mercy before a judge, but even then we don't want pity, because in the modern world pity implies contempt, while mercy implies compassion of one equal for another.
But Middle-earth is a hierarchical world, and furthermore a world divided into Good and Evil. Good people pity Evil people. Evil people don't want their pity, but that doesn't matter, because they are, indeed, Evil. It is good for Bilbo that he felt pity for Gollum not because it did Gollum any good -- ultimately it didn't -- but because it reflects on Bilbo's own virtue.
That being said, Darkstone has argued, I believe, that in this instance Bilbo's pity was not well-founded. Because Bilbo felt pity, Gollum may have stolen babies from cradles and eaten the babies. Because Bilbo felt pity, Sauron found out about the Ring.
I think this reflects the importance of souls over bodies in Middle-earth. Perhaps babies died because of Bilbo's pity (although Tolkien presents it as a rumor), but if that is true, Bilbo's soul was still saved, while the souls of the innocent babies were not lost. As for Sauron finding out about the Ring, perhaps that was all part of the Plan.
Let me also comment on Gandalf's interesting argument against the death penalty. If you cannot bring the dead to life, do not kill anyone? Does that make any sense?
I think Gandalf is once again handicapped by his hunches, and his reliance on hunches. Gollum is shown mercy not once but many times because he has a role to play in the Divine Plan -- like Turin, Gollum is protected by his Doom. Gollum even escapes Barad-dur and Mordor and Shelob, which is unheard of.
What Gandalf is really saying is that there are Powers in the world who are capable of bringing the dead to life, and who take an active interest in the fate of the world. Leave the judgment of Gollum to Them, and They will judge him. The problem is that Tolkien does not want to name God or the Valar here, or say anything that would take the reader out of the fantasy and make the Christian influence obvious. But the lesson is a standard Christian line: "Judge not, that ye be not judged." Matthew 7:1.
At any rate, it is far from clear that wisdom in Middle-earth is also wisdom in the Primary World. Don't offer people your pity if you want to win their friendship or gratitude. And don't assume that letting a serial killer go free will win you praise in the Primary World.
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weaver
Gondolin
Nov 2 2007, 7:44pm
Post #3 of 13
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It is good for Bilbo that he felt pity for Gollum not because it did Gollum any good -- ultimately it didn't -- but because it reflects on Bilbo's own virtue.
.... And don't assume that letting a serial killer go free will win you praise in the Primary World.
Not to get political, but your comments here make me think about the current debate on whether or not torture is justified, if the end result of it is that you are able to use information gotten this way to avert a mass terrorist attack that would kill hundreds of people.
Those who support torture as a technique often say the people it is being used on would not hestitate to kill or hurt innocents -- therefore, they are not deserving of humane treatment, pity or compassion. Those on the other side of the coin argue that in resorting to torture, we debase ourselves and our culture and turn ourselves into the kind of person we wish to stop.
Weaver
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Nov 2 2007, 7:47pm
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It would seem that Gandalf is in a roundabout way warning Frodo:
"For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
–Matthew 6.14-15
That is, Gandalf sort of senses that Frodo will eventually need pity just as much as Gollum does now. It's interesting that the films seem to bring this out more than the books.
As Reinhold Niebuhr said, we want mercy for ourselves and justice for others. And who would want justice if they could have mercy? Yet Justice and Mercy are both part of Love.
Also I note the passage "Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement." It does not say "Do not deal out death in judgement". It says, "Sure, go ahead and deal out death in justice, just don't be too hasty about it." Which when you think about it, is exactly what happened with Sauron, Gollum, Grima, and Saruman. They should have been killed long before they did as much damage as they ended up doing, but indeed in the end they were quite justly killed.
But frankly, if it was me I wouldn't have been so patient.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 2 2007, 8:38pm
Post #5 of 13
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Yes, the Primary World is complicated.
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I feel sure, though, that Tolkien would not condone torture, and that he was not implying that Gandalf either tortured or threatened to torture Gollum. It would be totally out of character. And Tolkien's Secondary World is in some ways quite uncomplicated. Always do the right thing, and everything will work out okay.
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weaver
Gondolin
Nov 2 2007, 9:41pm
Post #6 of 13
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On the torture debate, I agree Tolkien would definitely come down on the side of "don't do it", just because it is a morally wrong action and that kind of thing is not defensible for any reason in Middle Earth -- it falls in the category of using the Ring for "good."
I know Tolkien considered the moment where Sam mistakes Gollum's "almost" moment of redemption with Frodo for "sneaking" to be one of the most tragic things in the book (at least I think I've got the correct, but it's been awhile since I read Letters.) Given that a simple misjudging of someone, even with good reason, resulted in negative consequences, you can just imagine how a much harsher act by one of his characters, like torture, would play out.
On the other hand, he does seem to say we need to be on guard against "tender-heartedness" that lets bad guys get away with things. Both the elves in the case of Gollum and the Ents in the case of Saruman prove to be overly sympathetic jailors, resulting in the escape of their charges, and some pretty nasty consequences. Though in LOTR, of course, their good intents were used by the Higher Powers for good in the end, as this allowed Gollum to help guide Frodo and gave Saruman a couple more chances at redemption, as well as way for the Shire folks to prove themselves and value their land more. So doing the right thing, does as you say, result in everything working out in Tolkien's world..and in this one too, at least some of the time...
Weaver
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Nov 2 2007, 9:56pm
Post #7 of 13
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As a battalion Signal Officer Tolkien may indeed have been at the first level of prisoner interrogation. At that early stage prisoners are still in a state of shock and fearful that they might be shot out of hand, so they're very easy to get information out of. The first two hours are the most productive for interrogation. By the time they're processed farther back down the line they're recovered enough to begin effectively resisting interrogation.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 3 2007, 12:18am
Post #8 of 13
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I think the context of the quote
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is quite important in understanding Gandalf's point.
Also I note the passage "Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement." It does not say "Do not deal out death in judgement". It says, "Sure, go ahead and deal out death in justice, just don't be too hasty about it."
Gandalf's comment of, 'For even the very wise can not see all ends' reads to me that he's saying, for all intents and purposes, no one is smart enough to make the right call on death and judgement, so no one should make it at all.
It's interesting that he says 'the very wise'. Does he refer to even the wisest of all the Valar, or is 'wisest' a level above 'the very wise'?
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Nov 3 2007, 1:10am
Post #9 of 13
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Middle Earth interrogation techniques
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Aragorn: He was covered with green slime. He will never love me, I fear; for he bit me, and I was not gentle. Nothing more did I ever get from his mouth than the marks of his teeth.
Gandalf: but Gandalf came and endured long speech with him.’
‘Yes, long and weary,’ said Gandalf, ‘but not without profit. For one thing, the tale he told of his loss agreed with that which Bilbo has now told openly for the first time; but that mattered little, since I had already guessed it. But I learned then first that Gollum’s ring came out of the Great River nigh to the Gladden Fields. And I learned also that he had possessed it long....
Sauron: [Gollum] only wept and called us cruel, with many a gollum in his throat; and when we pressed him he whined and cringed, and rubbed his long hands, licking his fingers as if they pained him, as if he remembered some old torture.
...
And sooner or later as he lurked and pried on the borders he would be caught, and taken – for examination. That was the way of it, I fear.
...
[Frodo]’ll be all right. Or would be, if Lugbúrz would let him alone. And of course, beyond wondering where he is and what’s happened to him.’
‘And what’s going to happen to him,’ laughed Gorbag. ‘We can tell him a few stories at any rate, if we can’t do anything else. I don’t suppose he’s ever been in lovely Lugbúrz, so he may like to know what to expect. This is going to be more funny than I thought. Let’s go!’
Not sure what the lesson is here. Aragorn was rough and got nothing, although it's unclear if he was really after information. Gandalf was patient, and got the whole story. We know little of Sauron's specific methods except by implication, but he apparently got only scraps of info out of Gollum, less than Gandalf did.
Son of Elizabeth in Frodo's tree
March, 2007
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Nov 3 2007, 1:14am
Post #10 of 13
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Gandalf's comment of, 'For even the very wise can not see all ends' reads to me that he's saying, for all intents and purposes, no one is smart enough to make the right call on death and judgement, so no one should make it at all.
Why doesn't he say that, then?
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 3 2007, 1:29am
Post #11 of 13
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It's all interpretation, isn't it?
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I think he does say it; you think he doesn't.
Not that either interpretation stops us from enjoying the book.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Nov 5 2007, 11:13am
Post #12 of 13
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"We don't want to be pitied, because we consider all men to be equal, and pity a sign of hierarchy. We might want mercy before a judge, but even then we don't want pity, because in the modern world pity implies contempt, while mercy implies compassion of one equal for another.
But Middle-earth is a hierarchical world, and furthermore a world divided into Good and Evil. Good people pity Evil people. Evil people don't want their pity, but that doesn't matter, because they are, indeed, Evil. It is good for Bilbo that he felt pity for Gollum not because it did Gollum any good -- ultimately it didn't -- but because it reflects on Bilbo's own virtue."
I couldn't help thinking about the fact that your last line also says a lot about the effect of (and motifs underlying) pity in the Primary World. No wonder people don't want to be pitied when what they need is something quite different.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 5 2007, 4:26pm
Post #13 of 13
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'Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need.'
Pity may be a bit of a dirty word today, as others have said, because of its implications of superiority. Instead we might use the more acceptable word 'mercy', if the person exercising it really does have authority over others, such as a judge for example. But Tolkien uses 'Pity' and 'Mercy' to mean essentially the same thing, as in the quote above. He's describing a situation where one person (Bilbo) really does have power over another (Gollum). Because Bilbo feels Pity for the creature, he behaves with Mercy. The hierarchical world of Middle-earth means that there are situations where one person really may have the authority to deal out Justice to another, and therefore may be in a position to choose Mercy instead.
I think this is at the heart of Gandalf's other words of wisdom: 'Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.' He's saying that, although Justice may permit you to deal out death in judgement, Mercy is the better course, and may benefit not just the person you are judging, but yourself too. "Judge not lest you be judged." That is what saves Frodo in the end. Although he thought briefly about killing Gollum (and probably would have been fully justified in doing so), he chose Mercy, and so was accorded Mercy in his turn.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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