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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
An Update to Bilbo's Contract
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 12:49pm

Post #76 of 145 (1705 views)
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Different bones [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't expect the movie soup to taste the same as the book soup. It inevitably is going to incorporate the bones of a different ox. I wouldn't expect anything else.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 3 2012, 1:53pm

Post #77 of 145 (1713 views)
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Can we still like the book and films, even if we don't like soup? / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 2:06pm

Post #78 of 145 (1675 views)
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Soup is good food! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 2:40pm

Post #79 of 145 (1675 views)
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You don't like ANY kinds of soup??? [In reply to] Can't Post

That must make you a....Communist, or something!


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 3 2012, 2:44pm

Post #80 of 145 (1548 views)
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Any type of soup is yuck [In reply to] Can't Post

I want to be able to chew my food. Not just drink hot food-like water! Shocked

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(This post was edited by DanielLB on Oct 3 2012, 2:45pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 2:50pm

Post #81 of 145 (1527 views)
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You do not know what good soup is! [In reply to] Can't Post

Good soup cannot be drunk and you do have to chew a bit.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 2:55pm

Post #82 of 145 (1514 views)
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It's a good point [In reply to] Can't Post

However, whether or not it's a good interpretation depends on the details of how the film plays out. If the dwarves are made aware of Bilbo's personality, or of the habits of hobbits, before they ever show up at Bag End, then the contract will make a lot of sense, as it will be "aping" the hobbit style. But if it is portrayed as a "dwarvish" contract, then it will simply be a misinterpretation of the source material. And IMO, a serious one. It will not ruin the film for me, but it will be a missed opportunity to really get this one right.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 3:00pm

Post #83 of 145 (1539 views)
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Three things [In reply to] Can't Post

First, it was never stated explicitly by Tolkien that the dwarves were definitely "modeled" on Jews. There are certain aspects of the dwarves that contain echoes of the history and culture of the Jewish people, and Tolkien mentioned as much, but that is different from being "modelled" after Jews.

Two, it is probably not a good idea to perpetuate Jewish stereotypes such as "most Jews are lawyers," or t least, legalistic. Just a thought...

Third, it is Bilbo who asks for "out of pocket expenses" and remuneration" in the book. Thorin only writes up that legalistic note in mocking response to Bilbo's request. For Thorin, singing a song about the dragon and the treasure, and making vague comments about retaking it, should have been enough for Bilbo. But Bilbo insisted that it wasn't, and that he wanted it all spelled out "plain and clear."

The short answer is that the "contract" from the book is not dwarvish. It is hobbitish. Simple as that.


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Oct 3 2012, 3:03pm)


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 3 2012, 3:02pm

Post #84 of 145 (1621 views)
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Dwarves tend not to trust non-dwarves. [In reply to] Can't Post

That is certainly in Tolkien. And, whilst hobbits aren't as bad as elves, they still aren't dwarves, and therefore might need their duties and obligations clearly set out.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 3 2012, 3:03pm

Post #85 of 145 (1670 views)
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It's interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

that Terry Pratchett's dwarves are far more clearly "jewish".

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 3:04pm

Post #86 of 145 (1498 views)
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But that's not what the book implies [In reply to] Can't Post

The book implies that Bilbo should have said yea or nay based on a dwarven song, and some vague plans laid out by Thorin. It is Bilbo who asks for a contract!


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 3:20pm

Post #87 of 145 (1521 views)
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Your point is? [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not understand what Terry Pratchett (one of my favorite story tellers) has to do with the Hobbit.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 3 2012, 3:22pm

Post #88 of 145 (1648 views)
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Just an aside [In reply to] Can't Post

that he takes the idea of "Jewish" dwarves from Tolkien and runs with it.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 3:28pm

Post #89 of 145 (1472 views)
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I have always thought of the contract as a bit of a trifel [In reply to] Can't Post

a Tolkien joke and a bit of an anachronism much like the mention of steam engines and mantle clocks.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 4:04pm

Post #90 of 145 (1597 views)
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That's spot on [In reply to] Can't Post

But that is consistent with hobbits and the Shire in general. They are anachronisms. They are modern rural Englishmen living in an otherwise Dark Age Middle Earth! Everything about them, from their waistcoats and pipes, to their contracts and wills written in red ink, are meant to be familiar to the modern reader.

Yes, the dwarves of the Hobbit are not quite the fierce dwarves of Azanulbizar. They have grown a little soft. But they are not meant to be the anachronistic ones. That's the job of Bilbo Baggins, beourgois burglar!

There is still hope though. If PJ makes it clear that the contract was written with a silly hobbit in mind, I'll find it perfectly appropriate.


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 3 2012, 4:38pm

Post #91 of 145 (1631 views)
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I've never seen drunk soup [In reply to] Can't Post

Does it slosh across the table?

Small wonder it cannot be good!




Wink


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 4:43pm

Post #92 of 145 (1538 views)
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Mmhm [In reply to] Can't Post

It is an anachronism. As SA points out, it is one that occurs in response to the greater anachronism of an essentially Victorian/Edwardian bourgeois society plunked down in the middle of an otherwise medieval world.

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 4:45pm

Post #93 of 145 (1629 views)
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Don't blame me [In reply to] Can't Post

It was the soup talking.

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 4:58pm

Post #94 of 145 (1454 views)
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A cheap shot at propper usage. [In reply to] Can't Post

Drink, drank, drunk.Angelic

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



AlatarVinyamar
Lorien

Oct 3 2012, 4:58pm

Post #95 of 145 (1462 views)
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In response [In reply to] Can't Post

Your "Three Things"

The first item. I'll dig out the quote later. But yes, Tolkien specifically stated that the Dwarves were inspired by/modeled on Jews. Your obfuscation is simply that.

Second item. Please don't ascribe anti-semitic motivations to my posts. I merely raise the comparison that Tolkien himself made and common stereotypes associated with that comparison.

Third item. You are confusing opinion with fact. There are other readings of the text that are as valid as your own, or more so.


AlatarVinyamar
Lorien

Oct 3 2012, 5:01pm

Post #96 of 145 (1541 views)
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Quote for reference [In reply to] Can't Post

""The dwarves of course are quite obviously - wouldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic."" ― J.R.R. Tolkien


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 3 2012, 5:03pm

Post #97 of 145 (1560 views)
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I was thinking of this one [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations,
speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue.....


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geordie
Tol Eressea

Oct 3 2012, 5:07pm

Post #98 of 145 (1405 views)
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I was just looking up the quote while you posted - [In reply to] Can't Post

- here it is in a wider context.


G: Did you intend in Lord of the Rings that certain races should embody certain principles: the elves wisdom, the dwarves craftsmanship, men husbandry and battle and so forth?

T: I didn't intend it but when you've got these people on your hands you've got to make them different haven't you. Well of course as we all know ultimately we've only got humanity to work with, it's only clay we've got. We should all - or at least a large part of the human race - would like to have greater power of mind, greater power of art by which I mean that the gap between the conception and the power of execution should be shortened, and we should like a longer if not indefinite time in which to go on knowing more and making more.
Therefore the Elves are immortal in a sense. I had to use immortal, I didn't mean that they were eternally immortal, merely that they are very longeval and their longevity probably lasts as long as the inhabitability of the Earth.
The dwarves of course are quite obviously - wouldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic. Hobbits are just rustic English people, made small in size because it reflects (in general) the small reach of their imagination - not the small reach of their courage or latent power.

This is from a recorded interview - 'G' here is Denis Guerolt. Here's a link to a page which has a transcript of the interview -
http://www.lotrplaza.com/forum/lore/interview.asp
.


(This post was edited by geordie on Oct 3 2012, 5:08pm)


elevorn
Lorien


Oct 3 2012, 5:08pm

Post #99 of 145 (1401 views)
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agreed!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 



"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
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geordie
Tol Eressea

Oct 3 2012, 5:12pm

Post #100 of 145 (1581 views)
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Ooh, no - I like soup. [In reply to] Can't Post

My mum used to make wonderful soup - boiling up a good ham-bone from the butcher's, and adding all manner of veggies. What with that and home-baked bread - I miss my mum.
.

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