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Sinister71
Dor-Lomin
Sep 30 2012, 10:25pm
Post #26 of 52
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Additions just for the sake of...
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adding things into films is not always a good thing. And since there is no basis for the Nazgul parts of the story other than what Peter Jackson wants to make up to tie his films together maybe they should just leave well enough alone. I don't want to see things shoved into middle earth just for the sake of seeing them again. The Nazgul included.
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Lacrimae Rerum
Hithlum
Sep 30 2012, 10:45pm
Post #27 of 52
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I would guess it is rather more
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The history of Dol Guldur angle than the LOTR link.
LR
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 30 2012, 10:45pm
Post #28 of 52
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I'll be disappointed if these tombs end up as something other than the Barrow-downs. Since that seems to be the inspiration, just go all the way and do the barrow-down chapters from LOTR.
I could easily see Gandalf replacing Tom Bombadil in such a scene. However, it could make the similar rescue from the Trolls seem redundant (not to mention the rescue in Goblin-town). On the other hand, it would be a nice nod to the sequence ommitted from RotK.
'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White
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Lausus
Nevrast
Oct 1 2012, 2:10am
Post #29 of 52
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The Witch-king may just be a suspicion toward the Necromancer
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I think they might use the whole Witch-king tomb story to explain who they think the Necromancer is. Remember, the White Council doesn't know right away that Sauron is in Mirkwood. One possibility is that the council will suspect the Witch-king is running Dol Guldur throughout the movies and it will only be at the end that it is discovered...by the council and the audience...that Sauron is the Necromancer.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 1 2012, 4:20am
Post #30 of 52
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I think they might use the whole Witch-king tomb story to explain who they think the Necromancer is. Remember, the White Council doesn't know right away that Sauron is in Mirkwood. One possibility is that the council will suspect the Witch-king is running Dol Guldur throughout the movies and it will only be at the end that it is discovered...by the council and the audience...that Sauron is the Necromancer.
That may be the case in the films, but do we know this for certain? In Tolkien's chronology, the White Council had known of the Necromancer's real identity for ninety years prior to the events of The Hobbit. It was only before Gandalf's report to the Council of 2951 that they believed that the Necromancer might have been one of the Nine or some lesser follower of Sauron's. I agree with you, though, that Jackson may well have tinkered with this idea and moved events around.
'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White
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redgiraffe
Nargothrond
Oct 1 2012, 6:40am
Post #31 of 52
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I would like this to be the explanation
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I think they might use the whole Witch-king tomb story to explain who they think the Necromancer is. Remember, the White Council doesn't know right away that Sauron is in Mirkwood. One possibility is that the council will suspect the Witch-king is running Dol Guldur throughout the movies and it will only be at the end that it is discovered...by the council and the audience...that Sauron is the Necromancer.
I think the storyline in the appendices says that the white council suspected it might have been a nazgul in dol guldur. Then they were a bit surprised to find out it's Sauron.
Now, in the books they find out it's Sauron long before the events of the hobbit. So I wouldn't be surprised if PJ changes this to the white council not finding out it's Sauron until during the events of the hobbit. This can add a bit of mystery and "reveal" to the story.
-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle
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redgiraffe
Nargothrond
Oct 1 2012, 6:45am
Post #32 of 52
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That may be the case in the films, but do we know this for certain? In Tolkien's chronology, the White Council had known of the Necromancer's real identity for ninety years prior to the events of The Hobbit. It was only before Gandalf's report to the Council of 2951 that they believed that the Necromancer might have been one of the Nine or some lesser follower of Sauron's. I agree with you, though, that Jackson may well have tinkered with this idea and moved events around.
I'm surprised no one really talks about this. We have discussed the timeline of Gandalf using glamdring in dol guldur and when he meets Thrain. But no one talks about the timeline of when the white council finds out that sauron is the necromancer.
I wouldn't be surprised if PJ has them find out during the events of the hobbit. And I think this would be the change that I am most comfortable with. It seems like it could work out better from a movie standpoint to have a sense of mystery behind dol guldor throughout part of the films and then have the reveal that it is Sauron.
-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle
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Fardragon
Nargothrond
Oct 1 2012, 7:32am
Post #33 of 52
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From the white council clips that have been seen, that in this continuity the identity of the Necromancer is unknown.
I think we are seeing events that take place over a great many years in the appendices compressed down to fit within the timescale of the trilogy.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Oct 1 2012, 10:01am
Post #34 of 52
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They happen chapter after chapter after chapter. The only breathing space is Rivendell and Beorn's House.
I'm not saying I want the Ringwraiths to appear in the Barrow-downs, but in the grand scheme of things, the entire book involves being captured and saved.
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Lightice
Menegroth
Oct 1 2012, 11:06am
Post #36 of 52
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They happen chapter after chapter after chapter. The only breathing space is Rivendell and Beorn's House.
Exactly. That is what I was explicitly referring to as the breathing space. Some kind of interlude between threats. The elves don't qualify in the same category as the rest, since they don't threaten the lives of the protagonists, and actually save them from starvation or death by spiders, thus qualifying as another interlude more than as a threat.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Oct 1 2012, 11:13am
Post #37 of 52
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Who knows what scene they could put in between
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The Barrow-downs and Trollshaws to break it up. Perhaps a visit to Bree?
It doesn't matter that the Elves aren't a threat, the company is still captured then.
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stoutfiles
Nargothrond
Oct 1 2012, 11:31am
Post #38 of 52
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If you consider how often PJ veered from the book's story in LOTR with one film per book. Now he has three films for one book!
Just about anything can happen going there and back.
(This post was edited by stoutfiles on Oct 1 2012, 11:32am)
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Elenorflower
Mithlond
Oct 1 2012, 1:12pm
Post #39 of 52
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I vaguely remember that the journey
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until Trollshaws is quite uneventful, not a lot happens apart from them getting wetter and more miserable. Could they not break up this bit of the journey by wandering past the Barrow Downs and Weathertop? just in passing as a nod to future events. Or even Bree. I bet there is a whole load of unseen footage from LOTR that they could insert quite cleverly. I once heard that PJ had filmed Tom and decided not to include him in the theatrical versions due to time, and that one day he would show these lost pieces of footage. Maybe its just an urban myth thing, and they never did film Tom, but I can hope.
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Fardragon
Nargothrond
Oct 1 2012, 3:17pm
Post #40 of 52
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The should probably just show character interaction
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With everyone initially in high spirits (Gandalf trailer scene) and gradually becoming miserable and snappy.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 1 2012, 3:42pm
Post #41 of 52
(697 views)
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That is not too surprising really...
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I'm surprised no one really talks about this. We have discussed the timeline of Gandalf using glamdring in dol guldur and when he meets Thrain. But no one talks about the timeline of when the white council finds out that sauron is the necromancer.
I wouldn't be surprised if PJ has them find out during the events of the hobbit. And I think this would be the change that I am most comfortable with. It seems like it could work out better from a movie standpoint to have a sense of mystery behind dol guldor throughout part of the films and then have the reveal that it is Sauron.
Well, when the White Council finds out about Sauron is dependent upon when Gandalf makes this discovery--he is the one who brings this information to the Council. It seems that Jackson is altering events to make this feel more immediate to the audience, much as he sped up and streamlined Frodo's departure from the Shire.
'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White
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Danielos
Nargothrond
Oct 1 2012, 5:34pm
Post #42 of 52
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Of course Tom Bombadill was never shot. That section didnīt have any chance to fit into the movie either tonewise, storywise or timewise. And rightly so! It should have been left out of the book as well! Why would PJ waste money to shoot actors and sequences never likely to end up in the movies?
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Elenorflower
Mithlond
Oct 1 2012, 6:57pm
Post #43 of 52
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to your obviously superior knowledge and taste.
''Of course Tom Bombadill was never shot. That section didnīt have any chance to fit into the movie either tonewise, storywise or timewise. And rightly so! It should have been left out of the book as well! Why would PJ waste money to shoot actors and sequences never likely to end up in the movies?''
What was Tolkien thinking??
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Danielos
Nargothrond
Oct 1 2012, 7:07pm
Post #44 of 52
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Well, I think he should have thought harder about that part at least.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Oct 1 2012, 7:12pm
Post #45 of 52
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Bombadil was a deliberate enigma, and Tolkien made it explicit that he was not important to the narrative.
Bombadil was far from an oversight by Tolkien ...
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GothmogTheBalrog
Ossiriand
Oct 1 2012, 10:22pm
Post #46 of 52
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what he was doing. We (the fans) might not know what Bombadil was doing in FotR, but Tolkien did. I don't question it.
"It was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it." ~FotR
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Oct 1 2012, 10:56pm
Post #47 of 52
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While I vehemently disagree with this assessment
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It is, after all, just Danielos' opinion. 
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Phibbus
Nargothrond
Oct 1 2012, 11:25pm
Post #48 of 52
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Probably more words have been expended analyzing, questioning, speculating upon, accepting, excepting, rejecting, praising, ridiculing, and generally jawing about Bombadil than most of the more "essential" aspects of Tolkien's work (and most characters in the history of literature, generally.) Maybe Tolkien did know something about readers.
Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.
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Sinister71
Dor-Lomin
Oct 2 2012, 12:13am
Post #49 of 52
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I would be surprised if PJ, DIDN'T move things around//
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Oct 2 2012, 1:41am
Post #50 of 52
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The notion of the fall of The Witch King going entirely to Dunedain, and ignorning Lindor, Rivendell, Earnur and Glorfindel
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AGAIN! is so disgusting to me I can barely put it into words. That said. . . I think Gandalf is going to be gone for longer than a single night. You saw the scene of Thorin and co. running across the wild in the trailer with Thorin in The lead. They look to be decidedly without the aid of a Wizard in that scene. I am thinking he might leave them noticeably before they actually reach the trollshaws. He may be gone for the equivalent of several days. Not impossible, especially if PJ reduces the distance between Trollshaws and Angmar. It's more likely these tombs are in the Barrow-downs or somewhere in the Ettenmoors.
Also, we don't even know if that's where Gandalf goes off to that night.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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. 
