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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Tauriel: possible flash sideways?
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Sep 25 2012, 1:36pm

Post #1 of 136 (4355 views)
Tauriel: possible flash sideways? Can't Post

Sorry to be a bit stuck on Tauriel, but hey, I was a huge Kate fan, and was truly looking forward to seeing Evangeline as an elf. Like many, I was disappointed by the fact that the new structuring of the films apparently means that we won't see Tauriel until December 2013. I imagine many fans are also disappointed that we won't see Legolas as well. But then I got to thinking: just because the company doesn't enter Mirkwood in AUJ doesn't mean we won't see their characters in that film; nothing precludes a "Meanwhile, in Mirkwood..." scene. In fact, I think this may have the glimmer of a possibility. Here's my logic:

-In the trailer, we clearly see Radagast warning of a "dark power" making its way back into the world. This scene happens inside his home, Rhosgobel, located at the edge of Mirkwood. But who is he talking to? Gandalf? Yet in the book, Gandalf never leaves the party until _after_ the stay at Beorn's house. So either this scene is a flashback, or the timeline has been altered from the book, or Radagast is speaking to someone else. If I were a screenwriter, this would be the perfect way to kill two or more birds with one stone: if he is talking to Tauriel and / or Legolas, then we get to see them, and they then have a _reason_ for patrolling Mirkwood and encountering the dwarves in the first place.

What do you think?

Crunchable Birdses

Sep 25 2012, 1:51pm

Post #2 of 136 (2841 views)
Radagast is talking to his hedgehog friends. [In reply to] Can't Post

No seriously, Gandalf leaves the party at Trollshaws.

Edit: unless you mean it's unlikely Gandalf could make the schlep all the way over to Radagast's and back in that time.

* crunch *

(This post was edited by Crunchable Birdses on Sep 25 2012, 1:59pm)


Sep 25 2012, 2:12pm

Post #3 of 136 (2764 views)
Timeline clarification [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, Gandalf does leave the party at that point, but the book seems to indicate that this was only for a day or so: the dwarves notice Gandalf gone shortly before encountering the trolls; and when Thorin asks Gandalf where he went, we have the "To look ahead...looking behind" dialogue. Gandalf indicates he met friends from Rivendell, who were "hurrying for fear of the trolls". So he turns around and goes back to the company. Too little time, IMO, to have made the schlep over to Rhosgobel. Then again, he is a wizard...


Sep 25 2012, 2:40pm

Post #4 of 136 (2664 views)
hmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

I had assumed, from the trailer, that Radagast was speaking to Gandalf. Now, I'm not sure why I assumed this, but there's certainly a great opportunity to introduce some other characters in this scene.

A flash sideways would be an excellent way to show what's going on in other parts of middle earth concurrently with our main storyline. so, when the Dwarves do finally arrive at Mirkwood, the audience is all caught up with events that have been going on.

I'm not sure if that's the route the film-makers would take, but I wouldn't mind it!


Sep 25 2012, 2:50pm

Post #5 of 136 (2653 views)
It's possible [In reply to] Can't Post

TTT built up King Theoden before the Fellowship arrived. Who's to say we won't see Mirkwood before then, either, even if a main character doesn't go there.

However, in the book Mirkwood was a surprise so for that reason I'd prefer it and all the elves stay unrevealed till then.


Sep 25 2012, 2:55pm

Post #6 of 136 (2624 views)
me too [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd prefer that Mirkwood remain a surprise too, but from the footage we've already seen in the trailer, it seems that neither Mirkwood or even the spiders are going to be a surprise. So, since that will most likely be the case, I say why not show Legolas and Tauriel a bit earlier on... start introducing their character dynamic so that the real meat can be enjoyed in "The Desolation of Smaug" and "There and Back Again".


Sep 25 2012, 3:13pm

Post #7 of 136 (2623 views)
weighing of competing value [In reply to] Can't Post

satisfying the impatient desire of fans who don't want to wait vs keeping the number of new named important characters to a reasonable level in the first film ...

I think that it would make a lot more sense for Tauriel and/or Legolas to pounce upon the company of dwarves Haldir/Lorien-style if they had gotten information from Radagast (not ridiculous to think that elves from Mirkwood would be in contact with Radagast by the way). However, pouncing on the White Council but not the Dwarves along the road might be harder to sell. Furthermore, even a chance encounter between the WC and Legolas near Rhosgobel might be a bit incredulous unless Legolas is literally protecting Radagast's house instead of the forest in general on patrol. Maybe Legolas could track them to Rhosgobel - but chance encounters really do have a small chance of happening (and this would only be likely if Legolas was bound to or from Rhosgobel himself and had extra time). For example, Strider caught up with the hobbits by tracking them - not by sheer luck - and he was looking for them, specifically in the book. In the movie, Strider had a chance encounter (as far as we know) but it happened in an inn which is a very likely place to encounter a party of travels that one is looking for - much like a road is a likely place to encounter travelers.
Mirkwood is a very dense, challenging, and huge forest compared to Lorien. And even at that, there are rivers surrounding Lorien that are good places to spot travelers. Elves have good eyesight, but happening to just pick out a small group of travelers and stop some but not all - or track some but not all - or even spot them on their way in ... all of these are very questionable. Elves have very good eyesight but Thranduil's realm is quite far to the north and east and Lorien seems to be more concerned with the guarding of its own border ... furthermore I doubt that a wizard would need elves to guard his house for him - nor is it likely that Legolas would be the one to do it unless he had some reason for being quite close to Radagast (although it might be likely for Legolas to bring messages to and from Radagast). I doubt that the king's son would be chosen to settle in as a guard for a wizard's house even if Thranduil did offer that kind of protection for Radagast. I also am not convinced that it would be Mirkwood elves rather than Lorien elves that would consider such a move given Galadriel's place on the white council and the closer proximity of Lorien to the south and west of Mirkwood.

All of that being said, if there were to be changes made to the book such as the shifting of the location of Thranduil's halls, a shrinking of the vastness of Mirkwood, the relocation of Rhosgobel much closer to Thranduil in general, a stronger connection between Radagast and the Mirkwood elves being established, etc. Then something like this could be made to work, but at what cost and for what added value?

Eye's on Guard

Sep 25 2012, 3:27pm

Post #8 of 136 (2586 views)
And we should remember... [In reply to] Can't Post

...that AUJ originally went up to "Barrels Out of Bond," so there might not have originally been enough time for earlier scenes of the Mirkwood elves. And since none of the extra filming is for AUJ, we know that if it wasn't in the first-of-two version, it isn't in the first-of-three.

However, if they shot EE scenes already, PJ could possibly steal from those.

In Reply To
However, in the book Mirkwood was a surprise so for that reason I'd prefer it and all the elves stay unrevealed till then.


Sep 25 2012, 3:32pm

Post #9 of 136 (2571 views)
She could always appear in a Mirkwood prologue [In reply to] Can't Post

If they show Thranduil turning away the Dwarf exiles.

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Sep 25 2012, 3:53pm

Post #10 of 136 (2577 views)
I'm a bit Lost by... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the arguments you present. My hypothetical scenario never mentioned Tauriel and Legolas "pouncing on the White Council". For one thing, Radagast isn't at the WC, and secondly, the scene I referred to clearly takes place inside Rhosgobel. What I had envisioned was that the elves were summoned to Rhosgobel to hear Radagast's warning about the dark power. The logical messenger would be Legolas, since he represents his father (we know that later he will be the representative of the Mirkwood elves at the Council of Elrond). And Tauriel, as the self-described head of the elf guards, would be the perfect companion as added security.

An interesting related issue is, what happens after the spider breaks in? If Radagast is actually speaking to Gandalf, do they deal with it? This would be a perfect setup for two elf warriors to go up on the roof and kick some serious spider butt. Afterward they could look at each other as if to say "Whoa, we're in trouble now..."


Sep 25 2012, 4:20pm

Post #11 of 136 (2537 views)
Big Lilly fan [In reply to] Can't Post

First time i saw Lilly back in 2004 Lost season 1, I was kinda sad that she just missed Middle Earth train because she looked to me like poster child elf from Tolkien universe (at least how i imagined them). So i was thrilled when she was cast for Hobbit, kinda felt like I cast her :). So yes, I wasn't happy that I wouldn't see "my protege" until part 2. But this thread got me thinking that I just might see her and rest of elves even for a little bit. NICE.


Sep 25 2012, 4:21pm

Post #12 of 136 (2514 views)
clarity (I hope) [In reply to] Can't Post

I was assuming that eventually the elves being at Rhosgobel would lead to the elves having a reason to join the Dol Guldur battle or something. Maybe I read your post wrong. But I was trying to think through how that may or may not work well - and what it would take to make that work vs what risks it might introduce as far as the credibility of the film.
  • I don't think it's a good idea to introduce characters hastily.
  • I don't think any additional characters should be included in film1 unless it is really necessary or adds a lot of value because there are already 2 dozen (or more) important named characters being introduced to the audience for the first time.
  • I don't think the logistics issues surrounding Mirkwood elves being in Rhosgobel are much easier to deal with than those involved with Gandalf being there (both would involve changes to the text and/or extra back-story - examples of which I gave in that last post - that's what it was largely about).
  • There isn't much time to do more filming and last-minute changes with only a few months left to go - so even ideas that don't carry these kinds of issues with them might have to get turned down at this point.
  • I think that two wizards could deal with a spider attack without help from elves considering Bilbo was able to handle them with his ring.
  • It also sounds like there are already issues with a struggle over trying to whittle the movie down to 2 hours for health/3D related reasons.


Sep 25 2012, 4:40pm

Post #13 of 136 (2479 views)
I'm not sure... [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see some of your points for sure, but I'm having trouble with a couple of them.

First, how are there "2 dozen (or more)" named characters being introduced? Bilbo (old), Frodo, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel and Gollum are familiar to the audience. so, I don't see them as being "introduced"... except for young Bilbo. He will be given a proper and lengthy introduction. So, then we have 13 dwarves, Radagast, and....... I'm stumped. If you're referring to characters like The Goblin King or Thrain or Grinnah, Bolg, Azog, etc, then I don't see them getting much as far as introductions go. Also, Legolas will not need to be introduced. That leaves introducing only 1 new character.. Tauriel. If, as you say, there are 24 or more named characters, then what's 1 more?

I think that inroducing Tauriel in film one, even if it is in brief, would pay off hugely in film two. The audience would already be familiar and that would save some time in the second and third films to really flesh out her arc. So, even if it's hasty, it wouldn't be particularly unnecessary, especially if she's a more important character. Logistically, there are some problems... I'll give you that, but the screen writers are pretty smart. If they choose to go this route, I'm sure they'll find a way to make it work.

Also, I don't buy the whole "3D causes eye strain, so let's cut it down" argument. Avatar was ridiculously long and my eyes didn't get tired at all...

Now, having said all that, I don't necessarily buy the idea that we'll see Legolas or Tauriel before the second film. I'm just saying that it's not impossible or out of reason to think that we might see either/both of them in "An Unexpected Journey"... and the most likely place would be involving the Radagast story-line, somehow.

Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 25 2012, 4:54pm

Post #14 of 136 (2485 views)
Probably not [In reply to] Can't Post

I rather think he is talking to himself. He certainly doesn't seem to be looking at anyone else in the room.



Sep 25 2012, 4:54pm

Post #15 of 136 (2472 views)
characters [In reply to] Can't Post

there was another thread where this was discussed but here's a list of what I had:

13 dwarves
Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, Saruman, Radagast
Frodo and old Bilbo
Goblin King and other named goblins
3 named trolls

Not all of these are equally important to the story but if there are already so many that are very important and so many that are there but not as important ... introducing Tauriel and Legolas should be done very carefully.

If they are already there (i.e. Legolas as a messenger in Imladris - this doesn't require much explanation and he probably will be recognized by much of the audience - and it could be done fairly seemlessly). If they are already at Rhosgobel and they decided it works and all the kinks of doing that are worked out, then it could be ok - but it isn't something I'd add in now at this point because it would require lots of logistics and connection work between Thranduil and Radagast or Legolas and Radagast or Tauriel and Radagast.


Sep 25 2012, 5:12pm

Post #16 of 136 (2473 views)
again, not disagreeing.. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't disagree with anything you're stating, except for your using the terms "named" and "introduced".

Gandalf, Saruman, Bilbo, Elrond, Galadriel, Frodo, Gollum (possibly Legolas) are all important named characters, but are not being "introduced" as they are already established in the LOTR trilogy. So, they won't require much as far as introduction... except bilbo.

as far as "named" characters go, sure the trolls have names, Thrain has a name, the goblin king, Grinnah(?),..they all have names, but will WE even know their names? Lurtz had a name, Grishnakh, and Sharku had names, but we didn't know them or need to know them. So, I'm sure we're splitting hairs here, but the only characters being REALLY introduced (that the audience will need to know) are:
Thorin, Balin, Dwalin, Fili, Kili, Bifur, Bofur, Bombur, Nori, Dori, Ori, Oin, Gloin, Bilbo, Radagast, Lord of the Eagles, Smaug and the Necromancer.. ?

That's actually fewer than were introduced in FOTR; Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, Gandalf, Gollum, Isildur, Elendil, Aragorn, Arwen, Elrond, Sauron, Ringwraiths, Arwen, Legolas, Gimli, Boromir, Saruman, Galadriel and Haldir. Not to mention all the other "named" characters whose names don't matter; Celeborn, Lurtz, Barliman, Proudfoot, Sackville-bagginses, Gaffer, etc...

It's not such a stretch to introduce Tauriel in film one... IF they go that route.


Sep 25 2012, 5:24pm

Post #17 of 136 (2452 views)
uncertainty and split ends [In reply to] Can't Post

on hairs ...

... won't change the fact that there are about 2 dozen (or more) or so odd characters already. When there are that many new characters, adding additional characters must be done carefully. When this close to the release of the film, changes of any kind must be done only as needed. I don't see the need here and if Legolas and Tauriel aren't already in it, I don't think that now is the time to add them in. Any one additional character or change could be "the straw that broke the camel's back". Getting to know 15 adventurers all at one time is a big deal and the target audience shouldn't be assumed to "already know" the characters from LOTR on more than the level of basic recognition (if even that).

I have a feeling that the 3 trolls have become less of "characters" and the white council has been severely cut back in membership because of this issue. If this is the case, then adding new characters in is tricky business! If Tauriel and Legolas already appear in Rivendell as part of what the White Council scenes were already involved with then that is probably fine. If a whole new story between Thranduil and Radagast is already developed and worked out then that is probably stretching it but it could work. Adding or changing this kind of stuff now just seems like a bad idea.


Sep 25 2012, 5:53pm

Post #18 of 136 (2431 views)
Certainly! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I whole-heartedly agree!! If Legolas and/or Taureil weren't initially intended to be included at that point in the film, then yes, they shouldn't be shoe-horned in at this point in production. I see now that were discussing different issues entirely! I was going with the assumption that the film-makers could possible have intended to introduce them earlier from the get go. That perhaps we would have seen Legriel with Radagast or in some Mirkwood scenes. You were talking about the film-makers adding in a scene so that these characters would be introduced in the first film. I can agree that this would be a bad idea!

I think we probably won't have to worry about this issue at all... but we'll see!


Sep 25 2012, 5:59pm

Post #19 of 136 (2422 views)
introductions [In reply to] Can't Post

although WE know our "returning" characters (Gollum, Bilbo, Gandalf, etc.) as a filmmaker you can't assume that every audience member knows who they are. These are seperate films from Lord of the Rings and should be able to stand alone if you've never seen those films.

It would seem odd for the film to take for granted that we know who they are...

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas

Captain Salt
Tol Eressea

Sep 25 2012, 6:08pm

Post #20 of 136 (2423 views)
I wouldn't have minded something like this [In reply to] Can't Post

and even suggested something similar in another thread...however, apparently the Apple App for the TH trilogy pretty much definitively excludes Lilly, Bloom or Pace from the cast for AUJ, meaning that they very likely will not appear in the film in any capacity.

However, agreed that establishing the goings-on in Mirkwood, ALA the early introduction for Rohan/Theoden/Eowyn/Eomer/Wormtongue in TTT, could well have worked if done right (and added more content to AUJ); I mean, we are going to see a spider attack on Rhosgobel, which I can't help but feel will seem disconnected from the rest of the film - revolving around Bilbo, Gandy and Thorin as it does.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Sep 25 2012, 6:13pm

Post #21 of 136 (2417 views)
The spider [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the spider will be the illustration of the influence of the "dark power" growing in the forest. I know that in the books spiders are not connected to the necromancer, but evil creature tend to be more active as the power of a dark lord grow stronger.


Sep 25 2012, 6:30pm

Post #22 of 136 (2437 views)
Back before the films split to three [In reply to] Can't Post

Evangeline Lilly said that we would see a little bit of her at the end of film 1, and the rest of her in film 2. Now that the end of film 1 has been brought forward to the eagle rescue, we'll have to wait until the 2nd film to see Legolas/Tauriel/Thanduil etc.


Sep 25 2012, 6:39pm

Post #23 of 136 (2426 views)
Why in the world [In reply to] Can't Post

is everybody so juiced for the onscreen appearance for a bogus made-up character PBJ simply pulled out of their - er, made up out of thin air? One for whom there is no warrant in the text whatsoever, and who is so totally out of keeping with Tolkien's world?

Sheesh, at least Dreamboat Leggy is a genuine Elf of Mirkwood, even if T hadn't invented him at the time.


Sep 25 2012, 6:49pm

Post #24 of 136 (2405 views)
I'm not [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering that Evangeline Lilly said this:


"I am very concerned that people will watch and I'll be the black mark on the film. I know how adamant the purists are and I'm one of them."

If Tauriel does turn out to be that bad, at least AUJ will be free of her, but for now I will reserve my judgment. After all she could very well be saying all that just for insurance in case it turns out to be true.

(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Sep 25 2012, 6:51pm)


Sep 25 2012, 6:50pm

Post #25 of 136 (2421 views)
One big problem [In reply to] Can't Post

The official cast list excludes both Evangeline Lilly and Orlando Bloom from AUJ...

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