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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Aug 27 2012, 4:57am
Post #176 of 216
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its not a circle of negativity as you have articulated
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i understand PJ has made money off LOTR's/TH films, as he should, but that's not the point. Peter hasn't come out and said negative remarks about CT, however, CT has come out and made negative remarks on PJ's LOTR's films even though PJ no doubt has increased the number of readers thus increased the number of books sold. Although, like i've told you, CT has every right to say what he wants about his father's work in the hands of another artist.
From the bottom of the Long-Lake a dragon shall be possessed...green lights glowing out of the deep waters shall be seen where the dragon fell...reanimated shall be Smaug that was killed...and the Dark Lord will fly over Middle-Earth unopposed...raining fire down upon his enemies...
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rings7
Nargothrond
Aug 27 2012, 5:12am
Post #177 of 216
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I never said the point was PJ making money out of the movies.
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And i thought i made clear in my post that CT has the right to express his opinion, so i don't understand your comment. My only point was that he shouldn't be so negative. I repeat, he has the right to not like the movies and express it publicly. I'm just saying he shouldn't focus only on that. Yes, i repeat again, he can say he doesn't like them, but i think it would also be good for him to show a tiny itty bitty appreciation to the fact that his father's and his own books are now more popular because of these movies. That's all.
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Aug 27 2012, 6:24am
Post #178 of 216
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He has never been negative about the films "coming out"
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He has only been negative about the quality of the films. There is a huge difference between being against films of LOTR in general, and being critical of the films that Peter Jackson made.
He is likely not expressing gratitude because he feels the films misrepresent his father's vision, and is worried about the legacy of his father's work.
There is absolutely no reason for him to be grateful if he feels this way.
And this whole "the films got more people to buy and read the books" is a little overcooked. The Lord of the Rings is the secod-highest grossing book of all time. It didn't exactly need PJ's "help" in order to reach the masses...
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Aug 27 2012, 6:29am
Post #179 of 216
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There's no reason for PJ to make negative comments about CT
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Because CT never took a work of PJ's, or PJ's family, and adapted it into something!
Plus, CT has never, ever said anything negative about Peter Jackson. He simply criticized the films, which he felt were mere action adventures for young adults.
And that is not very harsh criticism, as PJ stated from the start that an action adventure of that kind was all he intended to make!
CT has been remarkably reserved about all this. But there has grown a mythology about his hatred for the films and PJ, and his lack of "gratitude," just because PJ remarked at ComicCon that the Tolkien Estate didn't like the films very much!
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Aug 27 2012, 7:06am
Post #180 of 216
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i'm just saying PJ has never said anything negative about CT is all, and like i've said yes, CT has every right to his criticism but come on, if CT is making negative remarks on PJ's LOTR's films lets at least be honest and acknowledge that is a criticism of PJ. For example, if i make a product, you buy it and post a criticism, whose at fault? the product or the manufacturer?
From the bottom of the Long-Lake a dragon shall be possessed...green lights glowing out of the deep waters shall be seen where the dragon fell...reanimated shall be Smaug that was killed...and the Dark Lord will fly over Middle-Earth unopposed...raining fire down upon his enemies...
(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Aug 27 2012, 7:07am)
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macfalk
Doriath
Aug 27 2012, 8:03am
Post #181 of 216
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For me at least, as you know, I've been criticizing CT. Not because he's not "grateful" of all the money he got off PJ's project. Not that. But because of his ignorant comments about the movies. Movies that I doubt he even has seen. If he really does think that the movies are only people for ages 15-25, I advice him to first get a reality check and then take a look at this message board. There majority of the people here at this board are older than 25 years old. Granted, not everyone who's here like the movies, but the majority does. I feel insulted by CT's sly remarks. Insulted and minimized.
I would like to add that I fully respect Christopher Tolkien's stance on protecting his fathers work. I really do. It's his comments about the films that bothers me (as far as I've heard, he has not even seen the movies)
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
(This post was edited by macfalk on Aug 27 2012, 8:08am)
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JWPlatt
Hithlum
Aug 27 2012, 8:11am
Post #182 of 216
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This site and forum contain a beyond-vast minority of those who have seen the movies. It is self-selecting and cannot possibly be counted as demographically representative.
(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Aug 27 2012, 8:14am)
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Noria
Hithlum
Aug 27 2012, 1:23pm
Post #183 of 216
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I was very disappointed when Peter Jackson said he wouldn’t be directing The Hobbit, glad when Guillermo del Toro was hired, sorry when he left and overjoyed when PJ took the reins again.
I get that people who are huge GdT fans and/or dislike Pj’s LotR were very disappointed when GdT left the production and I’m sorry. Having seen a number of GdT’s movies, I’ve come to the conclusion that his artistic sense is too fairy-tale like and grotesque for The Hobbit that I want to see. The GdT movies that I’ve seen were great and his artistic vision is wonderful, but not for TH, in my opinion. Many of you feel differently and this is truly a matter of personal taste.
But the point I wanted to make is this: maybe Dormouse is right and we got the whole story about GdT leaving the production, or maybe there were other factors such as conflicting artistic visions, 3D, workplace hostility etc. There appears to be no actual evidence to support a conspiracy theory but it doesn’t matter anyway. The parties involved in TH made a statement that allowed everyone to come out of the situation with their dignity and reputations intact, in what appears to have been an amicable parting of the ways. It was well done. Anything else is truly none of our business and the speculation is really just gossip. We don't have any right to know everything about the film makers' business relationships and decisons, any more than we do about their personal lives.
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Aug 27 2012, 1:25pm
Post #184 of 216
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As far as I can see there still seems to be quite a bit of Del Toro left
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This excerpt focuses mainly on the designs, which I expected would be changed after Del Toro left the production and the direction passed over to PJ. After all, how could it be otherwise? But Del Toro still co-wrote the script, I believe, so I take it that parts of his vision and ideas for the content of the films are still left. I haven't got the impression, either, that the intended colour palette of the films have changed with the change back to PJ either, which means that the colour palette will be fresher and brighter than it was for LoTR.
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Aug 27 2012, 2:50pm
Post #185 of 216
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There is a difference between a conspiracy theory
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And a suggestion that perhaps events were a bit more complex than publicly announced (which is almost always the case with any large enterprise, whether it be artistic, financial or governmental).
I think it is safe to say, however, that we really do not (and cannot) know the full story of what happened re: GDT.
My suspicion is that GDT just didn't have the time to wait around and see if there would be a green light or not. It was too risky, in terms of his career, to wait.
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rings7
Nargothrond
Aug 27 2012, 3:34pm
Post #186 of 216
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I know he's only been negative about the quality of the films
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I won't argue that. But i still think the films contributed to more people reading and getting into Tolkien. Even now, people i know who never read Tolkien, are starting to read the Hobbit because it's coming out. And i don't think the ones i know are the only ones in the planet. I don't know why you guys are so negative towards PJ. I know you'll say you're not, but you are. Nothing personal i know. But there are people who didn't even know Tolkien existed till these films came out. I know you're not happy with the films but give him a little freaking credit to what he's done to Tolkien. Don't tell me he hasn't made an impact because he has. Did Tolkien need it? Maybe not, but the impact is there whether you like the films or not, and whether he needed it or not.
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Aug 27 2012, 3:48pm
Post #187 of 216
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Have primarily had a negative impact on the perception of the books. Non-Tolkien readers tend to conflate book and film, whether we like it or not, and in my experience, this has led to a perception that the books are of lesser quality than they actually are.
Yes, some more people have read them since. But probably a greater number of people saw the films, won't bother to read the books, and will primarily think of PJ's films when thinking and talking about the Lord of the Rings, and Tolkien.
That is the legacy problem that I am sure Christopher has. This new fan base, driven by derivative films, who get further and further away from the spirit and intent of the original.
I like Peter Jackson a lot, but I am certainly not grateful for him making these films. I wish he had let someone with a better sense of both film and Tolkien take them on.
If I liked the films, I would feel differently, of course. But I don't, so there we are!
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rings7
Nargothrond
Aug 27 2012, 4:13pm
Post #188 of 216
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I don't know if he tried offering this to someone else after GDT walked out. We don't know that, we don't know what happened in between, we can only speculate. I'm fairly happy with the trilogy and i hope that doens't make me a non Tolkien fan. You can be both Tolkien and PJ fan AND like the movies along with the books. To me it's not a tragedy. I majored in English ages ago and my favorite discussions were always comparing books to movies. I'm not that 100% happy with what i see in the Hobbit, but if i liked the trilogy, i'm sure i won't have that much of a problem with the Hobbit. I hope.
Sorry wanted to add one more thing. To say it's a negative impact is a matter of personal opinion. To me it's not that negative. I like both movies and books. Neither made me like less the other. I don't know if that made sense.
I like Peter Jackson a lot, but I am certainly not grateful for him making these films. I wish he had let someone with a better sense of both film and Tolkien take them on.
(This post was edited by rings7 on Aug 27 2012, 4:21pm)
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Aug 27 2012, 5:15pm
Post #189 of 216
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Is a matter of personal opinion!
You can have yours, and I can have mine, and it's all good. 
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Aug 27 2012, 5:25pm
Post #190 of 216
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- but I agree. This is exactly how I feel.
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JWPlatt
Hithlum
Aug 27 2012, 5:47pm
Post #191 of 216
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I don't know why you guys are so negative towards PJ.
Someone (please speak up if it was you - good post) recently lamented the "linear," or black and white, thinking that goes on these days where there is no degree of freedom on thought. What it means is that if we complain about one aspect of something, we must hate all aspects of it. Such unhealthy generalizations and false assumptions are just not true or valid thought. We can despise the corporate behavior of such things as The Green Tint, or what was done to selected aspects of the screenplay as an adaptation of The Lord of the Rings without despising the other 99.999% of the person involved. In fact, I think you would find almost everyone on this forum actually does like Peter Jackson as an atypically sincere Hollywood personality who stays true to himself.
(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Aug 27 2012, 5:50pm)
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Aug 27 2012, 6:25pm
Post #192 of 216
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I find Peter Jackson himself to be a breath of fresh air.
But if you listened to some other people's opinions about my opinion, you would think I wanted him sent to the Tower!
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Aug 27 2012, 6:40pm
Post #193 of 216
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but points deducted for missing the point. 
I have apologized a few times already. Further to that, when I said "I should know better than to return evil for evil" it was the same as saying "BB's comments do not excuse my own behaviour." Incidentally "do not repay evil for evil" is a figure of speech (google it) which is essentially the same as saying "turn the other cheek." In other words, sorry if the word "evil" threw you a bit.
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that MGM and WB were stalling because they thought GDT wasn't a good fit for The Hobbit. Therefore as theories go, it is baseless. Given that WB gave him around $200 million to make his current movie, and have not interfered with him in the least, the idea that they may have thought he would ruin The Hobbit and would only green-light the thing if he left is absurd.
Finally, If it was in fact a simple observation, please tell me about (or point to) the things that you observed that lead to making your statement. Since I know there are none, your "observation" is also unkind.
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on 0 secs ago)
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Aug 27 2012, 6:54pm
Post #194 of 216
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Antler headgear - perhaps transferred to Thranduil?
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I think a great way to preserve some of GDT's ideas, while keeping close to canon, would be to give Thranduil, the Woodland King, a headdress that includes an antler motif. This would also draw a good connection to the white stag, which I hope is in the films.
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rings7
Nargothrond
Aug 27 2012, 7:22pm
Post #195 of 216
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I didn't think i was being B&W
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I said CT is free to express his opinions, just not to focus only on not being fateful to the legacy.
I also said to give PJ a break, and maybe i did misinterpreted others' comments here.
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imin
Doriath
Aug 27 2012, 7:42pm
Post #196 of 216
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I think the films were targeted at the 15-25 age range, though that doesn't mean only people of that age range will like it. but they certainly were more mass market, blockbuster appeal to them than the books which makes them more accessible to young adults who were their target audience (imo), this is not a slight on the films, just that is who they were aimed at.
CT i think feels people have come to his fathers works from PJ's film with a wrong impression of what ME is etc. For CT it seems its more important that people 'get' his father's work than how many read it. It is a shame though that he cant say - i didnt like the films, but im not against adaptations. For me it is nice to see more people reading my father's work.
I guess he is too close to the material to have any opinion other than - my father's work is the best, better than any adaptation could be. I think after a life spent being immersed in ME that is understandable.
Still i can see how to you, who prefers the films it is annoying that he doesnt like them.
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rings7
Nargothrond
Aug 27 2012, 8:32pm
Post #197 of 216
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I didnt know he hasn't even seen them. But regardless, not many people his age would like them. I hope i don't sound rude because it's not my intention.
For me at least, as you know, I've been criticizing CT. Not because he's not "grateful" of all the money he got off PJ's project. Not that. But because of his ignorant comments about the movies. Movies that I doubt he even has seen. If he really does think that the movies are only people for ages 15-25, I advice him to first get a reality check and then take a look at this message board. There majority of the people here at this board are older than 25 years old. Granted, not everyone who's here like the movies, but the majority does. I feel insulted by CT's sly remarks. Insulted and minimized.
I would like to add that I fully respect Christopher Tolkien's stance on protecting his fathers work. I really do. It's his comments about the films that bothers me (as far as I've heard, he has not even seen the movies)
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Aug 27 2012, 11:44pm
Post #198 of 216
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CT has never said he hasn't seen the films, as far as I know
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Not sure where that idea came from.
Based on his recent comments about the films being action fare aimed at a particular age demographic (which I believe he is generally right about - and just because one aims to please a particular age bracket, doesn't mean people outside that range may not like them...) I have to assume that he has watched the films and made a judgment.
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rings7
Nargothrond
Aug 28 2012, 2:56am
Post #199 of 216
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Well yeah that's what i thought
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i wouldn't believe he would make a judgment of the films without seeing them.
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Shelob'sAppetite
Doriath
Aug 28 2012, 4:05am
Post #200 of 216
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Someone recently asked the following question in regard to the LOTR books:
Does anyone know how Sauron became an eye? When he lost the ring he was still in the shape of a human being. It is probably somewhere in the Silmarillion.
Does this represent an improvement of Tolkien's legacy? Not so sure... 
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