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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Discuss Ostadan's 'Jackson Hobbit: Too Much?'

calisuri
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Aug 23 2012, 8:26pm


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The following is an editorial by long-time staffer and original Green Books contributor Ostadan and does not necessarily represent the opinion of our entire staff:

Most people agree that Jackson’s film adaptation of The Lord of the Rings was both an artistic and commercial success. For many fans of the book, it was as good an adaptation as they had any reasonable right to expect (although with some questionable choices); for those who did not know the books or did not remember them well, it served as an introduction to Tolkien’s work. For my part, although there were numerous scenes and bits of dialogue that were distracting — whether because they strayed unnecessarily far from Tolkien’s text (Denethor), or because it simply didn’t ring true to the story at hand (the very over-the-top Hollywood treatment of the Army of the Dead) — there was much more that did feel like reading The Lord of the Rings for the first time. This is very important to me in watching a cinematic book adaptation, even if it is not fully "faithful", whether the work in question is The Lord of the Rings or Watership Down. In some undefinable way, the film should remind me of the experience of reading the book so that I feel that I am reading a translation of a sort, rather than a new work "inspired" by the original.



When the first teaser trailer for Jackson’s The Hobbit appeared, I had a mixed reaction. While it was nice to see Rivendell and Gandalf again, and the casting of Martin Freeman is inspired — not even Jackson’s harshest critics could find much wrong with his casting in The Lord of the Rings — the only time it invoked the feeling of reading The Hobbit was the portrayal of the Dwarves singing at that unexpected party. The rest of the trailer felt more to me like "More The Lord of the Rings Footage" (in 3D, as the incongruous solid block letters proudly announced). It seemed that Jackson wanted to make The Hobbit over into the image of The Lord of the Rings, which is a troubling idea. Since then, we have learned a fair bit of what Jackson has been adding to the story of The Hobbit, and with the decision to go to a three-film adaptation, one might infer with some justification that Jackson (who, it will be remembered, did not originally intend to direct these films) does not really like The Hobbit very much as a book, and considers it to be a kind of simple-minded early attempt by Tolkien before settling down to the more weighty and serious matters of The Lord of the Rings. A book suitable only for children, and not sufficiently epic in scope for a feature film.

As the director, he is entitled to this opinion of the book, and indeed it is one shared by some Tolkien fans as well. No justification or defense is needed, although one can well criticize the decision from a filmmaking or storytelling standpoint (about which more later). What is far more troubling is that Jackson has attempted to justify this by hinting that he’s just doing what Tolkien himself would have done, and has made statements bordering on misleading and self-serving revisionism, to put it politely. Consider the interview reported by Mike Fleming of deadline.com from the San Diego Comic-Con:

"That goes back to JRR Tolkien writing The Hobbit first, for children, and only after did he develop his mythology much more over the 16 or 17 years later when The Lord of the Rings came out, which is way more epic and mythic and serious."


Here already, Jackson is glossing over the context in which The Hobbit was written: as most Tolkien fans know, the "mythology" had been developed for more than 16 years before the writing of The Hobbit. Elrond, the Necromancer Sauron (or Thû), the tale of Gondolin, the ancient quarrel of the Dwarves and Thingol … these were all established parts of Tolkien’s mythology; as he wrote (Letters, #19, 1937), The Hobbit began as, "a comic tale among conventional and inconsistent Grimm’s fairy-tale dwarves, and got drawn into the edge of [the mythology] – so that even Sauron the terrible peeped over the edge." The mythology impinged itself on The Hobbit as it was written, not as a new idea resulting from the writing of The Lord of the Rings. But of course, Jackson has no rights to The Silmarillion; perhaps this is why he chooses to omit this information. But more likely, it would lend less credence to his assumption that The Hobbit is just a sketchy first attempt at The Lord of the Rings.

Jackson continues,

"What people have to realize is we’ve adapted The Hobbit, plus taken this additional 125 pages of notes, that’s what you’d call them. Because Tolkien himself was planning the rewrite The Hobbit after The Lord of the Rings, to make it speak to the story of The Lord of the Rings much more."




Riddles in the Dark, by David Wenzel

Well, no, that is not what I would call them. The Appendices for The Lord of the Rings were certainly not notes or jottings to make The Hobbit speak to the later story more; they were an intrinsic part of the writing of The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien did, famously, rewrite the Riddles in the Dark chapter (as he was completing The Lord of the Rings) to bring that critical matter of plot in line with the narrative – the newly established facts, if you will – of the later book, but as he wrote to Stanley Unwin in 1947 (Letters, #109), "Talking about revising The Hobbit. Any alteration of any radical kind is of course impossible, and unnecessary." Where, then, does Jackson get the idea that he was planning a rewrite? Even though, as Tolkien reports, readers wanted to know more about Gandalf, the Necromancer, and so on, it was not his intent to alter the narrative of The Hobbit to provide those answers; that was done quite well by the later book. Indeed, that is one of the reasons it was begun!

"In the novel, Gandalf disappears for various patches of time. In 1936, when Tolkien was writing that book, he didn’t have a clue what Gandalf was doing."




Since Gandalf does tell us what he was doing, though without unnecessary details, this is an extremely odd thing to say. The storytelling purpose of Gandalf’s absence, of course, is explained by Tolkien in a letter (Letters, #257, 1964): "[The Necromancer’s function] … was hardly more than to provide a reason for Gandalf going away and laving Bilbo and the Dwarves to fend for themselves, which was necessary for the tale." Tolkien had a good sense of what was necessary in his story.

But now Jackson really leaves the track:

"But later on, when he did The Lord of the Rings and he’d hit on this whole epic story, he was going to go back and revise The Hobbit and he wrote all these notes about how Gandalf disappears and was really investigating the possible return of Sauron, the villain from The Lord of the Rings. Sauron doesn’t appear at all in The Hobbit. Tolkien was retrospectively fitting The Hobbit to embrace that mythology. He never wrote that book, but there are 125 pages of notes published at the back of Return of the King in one of the later editions. It was called The Appendices, and they are essentially his expanded Hobbit notes."


I am surprised that Tolkien fans, no matter how much they may love Jackson’s films so far, have been quiet and let him get away with this revisionist (to put it politely) history. If such a thing had been written by, say, George Lucas, everyone would be loudly calling him out for promulgating such claptrap; but — so far — Jackson has not squandered the fans’ goodwill as Lucas did.

Again, the Appendices are certainly by no stretch of the imagination a collection of notes for a revised version of The Hobbit: they were published with the first edition of The Return of the King, not thrown in as an afterthought "in one of the later editions." The history of the Appendices, including early drafts and some material that was evidently omitted in haste to get the finished volume to the publisher in time, can be found in Christopher Tolkien’s History of Middle-earth series. And as the 1937 letter quoted earlier demonstrates, Tolkien certainly knew that the Necromancer was indeed Sauron the terrible when he wrote The Hobbit.

"So we had the rights to those as well and were allowed to use them.… We haven’t just adapted The Hobbit; we’ve adapted that book plus great chunks of his appendices and woven it all together. The movie explains where Gandalf goes; the book never does. We’ve explained it using Tolkien’s own notes. That helped inform the tone of the movie, because it allowed us to pull in material he wrote in The Lord of the Rings era and incorporate it with The Hobbit."




Tolkien did, around 1960, undertake to revise The Hobbit substantially to bring the narrative more in line with The Lord of the Rings. From the manuscripts of the chapters he completed (which can be found in John D. Rateliff’s The Story of The Hobbit (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2007)), he altered the narrative style (omitting the first- and second-person asides) and tried, without success, to get the geography, times, and distances (including moon phases) to be consistent with the maps and text that had been published. He did not, notably, significantly alter the names nor dialogue of the Trolls, as an example of the sort of revision that he did not feel was productive; nor is there any basis in this material for inferring that he would have digressed into extensive details of the off-stage action involving the Necromancer.

In Jackson’s The Lord of the Rings, even when the adaptation diverged greatly from the text (lack of Bombadil, Arwen filling in for Glorfindel), it was not hard to see why Jackson made these decisions from a storytelling standpoint (story pacing in the case of Bombadil, and introducing Aragorn’s love story more visibly at an early stage). In the case of The Hobbit, the book as it stands presents far fewer difficulties for a screenwriter. It has a straightforward story-line, in an almost perfectly standard Hollywood three-act pattern rising to a climactic battle and a swift denouement. And it is first and foremost Bilbo’s story. The title of the book is not The Quest for Erebor; it is The Hobbit, and almost every page of the story is from Bilbo’s point of view. In fact, bringing in the whole White Council B-plot creates story problems that must be solved. If it is simply a side matter to explain Gandalf’s absence, then it serves no purpose to the main story (rather like the unnecessary excursion to Osgiliath in Jackson’s The Two Towers). On the other hand, if it does affect the main story, then the result must be major changes to the last few chapters of the book. And so we have speculation about whether Radagast will be at the Battle of Five Armies, the sort of question which makes me cringe. And for what? To create unneeded connections between this film and The Lord of the Rings.



Jackson has decided to make The Hobbit into a "prequel", and this itself creates problems. Prequels can be well done, but too often they fall into the trap of going through a lot of narrative complexity just to retroactively set up the story. Lewis’s The Magician’s Nephew, a prequel written after The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe in his Narnia series, isn’t a bad story, but goes through some absurd machinations to explain the mysterious appearance of a lamp-post in the middle of a snowy woodland in the earlier volume. If this book is read first, it spoils the earlier volume: Narnia is no longer a mysterious land to be discovered, with the magical lamp-post improbably burning in the wood; it is a familiar land, and one might well wonder why so much effort is being spent to re-introduce it, and Aslan. In the case of The Hobbit, the book is not a prequel, and can (and should) be read first as an introduction to Tolkien’s world. But by being framed as a prequel, the film can never serve as an introduction to Middle-earth to viewers five or twenty-five years from now, for it will be filled with unnecessary and confusing characters ("My dear Frodo …") and events that depend entirely upon the earlier films for comprehension. Nor will it encourage people to read the book as The Lord of the Rings did in its time, for prospective readers will quickly recognize the difference in tone and subject matter between the film and book, and will likely (as Jackson seemingly does) consider the book to be far inferior and not worth their time. Nor can I easily imagine what a child who has just read The Hobbit for the first time, and decides to watch this film before reading The Lord of the Rings will make of it. Nothing good, I think.

Let me be clear here: I am not arguing for a pure-and-faithful verbatim rendering of The Hobbit. I do not expect nor want the film to attempt to represent the chatty narration of the book, nor to give us childlike Elves in Rivendell who sing "fa-la-li-lolly." (although having them sing Sindarin that Bilbo, ignorant of Elvish, thinks sounds like that would be marvelous). But there is likewise no compelling reason to add Frodo, Galadriel, Radagast, Saruman, and (perhaps most alarmingly from a certain standpoint) a speaking role for Sauron, nor a fan-fiction account of the Nazgûl and the battle of Dol Guldur, no matter how well-executed.



It should be remembered, after all, that in 1960, Tolkien abandoned the attempt to rewrite The Hobbit, partly because it was impractical, and partly because a friend who read what he had written told him that it was wonderful but, "it’s not The Hobbit." He settled for minor revisions to the text (e.g., the mention of mithril) for the 1965 edition. Peter Jackson, it seems, does not trust Tolkien’s judgment in this matter. One can only hope that he can somehow make something coherent out of all this material so that, if it isn’t The Hobbit, it will at any rate be an entertaining film trilogy. But it does seem a shame that Jackson missed his opportunity to make the definitive film adaptation of the book that Tolkien wrote:

The generally different tone and style of The Hobbit is due, in point of genesis, to it being taken by me as a matter from the great cycle susceptible of treatment as a "fairy-story", for children. Some of the details of tone and treatment are, I now think, even on that basis, mistaken. But I should not wish to change much. For in effect this is a study of simple ordinary man, neither artistic nor noble and heroic (but not without the undeveloped seeds of these things) against a high setting — and in fact (as a critic has perceived) the tone and style change with the Hobbit’s development, passing from fairy-tale to the noble and high and relapsing with the return.


— J.R.R. Tolkien (Letter to Milton Waldman)

=======================================

Ostadan is a long time contributor to TheOneRing.net and an original member of the Green Books team. He can be reached via email at ostadan@theonering.net.

(This post was edited by Silverlode on Aug 24 2012, 3:06am)

Subject User Time
Discuss Ostadan's 'Jackson Hobbit: Too Much?' calisuri Send a private message to calisuri Aug 23 2012, 8:26pm
    Thank you for writing this... I agree with just about all of it, and I think stretching the story out to three films will just exacerbate the problem. // acheron Send a private message to acheron Aug 23 2012, 8:43pm
    Agree with everything said in here!!!!!! Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Aug 23 2012, 8:59pm
    Interesting read - can't say I agree with all of it though. DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Aug 23 2012, 9:02pm
        IMO... redgiraffe Send a private message to redgiraffe Aug 24 2012, 12:40am
            Completely agree DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Aug 24 2012, 9:29am
                Yes, Ruinwen Send a private message to Ruinwen Aug 24 2012, 9:42am
                    His own work? stoutfiles Send a private message to stoutfiles Aug 24 2012, 1:32pm
                        Best of both Olo Overhill Send a private message to Olo Overhill Aug 24 2012, 2:09pm
        I will be going to see the film, and I will surely enjoy much of the content, HOWEVER AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 24 2012, 6:40pm
    I will go and almost certainly love the Hobbit movie, but... NottaSackville Send a private message to NottaSackville Aug 23 2012, 9:06pm
    Prediction JWPlatt Aug 23 2012, 9:08pm
        Unless they add a green tint ... then you won't purchase it ;-) / DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Aug 23 2012, 9:39pm
            The Green Tint JWPlatt Aug 23 2012, 9:53pm
                You are never going to let that drop, are you? :)// Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Aug 24 2012, 1:55am
                    No JWPlatt Aug 24 2012, 2:21am
    Thank you for posting this . . . TomthePilgrim Send a private message to TomthePilgrim Aug 23 2012, 9:26pm
    Strongly disagree thirdeblue Send a private message to thirdeblue Aug 23 2012, 9:39pm
        No JWPlatt Aug 23 2012, 9:45pm
            OT I know, but. . . hamlet Send a private message to hamlet Aug 24 2012, 1:38am
                Yep JWPlatt Aug 24 2012, 2:13am
            Joe Cocker's version of "With a little help from my friends" TheBeerBaron Send a private message to TheBeerBaron Aug 24 2012, 6:17am
                True . . . TomthePilgrim Send a private message to TomthePilgrim Aug 24 2012, 2:31pm
                Joe Cocker JWPlatt Aug 24 2012, 3:25pm
            Any cover of Bob Dylan Owlyross Send a private message to Owlyross Aug 24 2012, 2:57pm
                Check out Colin James . . . TomthePilgrim Send a private message to TomthePilgrim Aug 24 2012, 3:27pm
                Sizzla Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Aug 24 2012, 5:56pm
                    Amen Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 24 2012, 5:57pm
                        How cool! Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Aug 24 2012, 8:37pm
            Agreed!!! BlackCountry Send a private message to BlackCountry Aug 25 2012, 1:12pm
        Could not agree more! adnan Send a private message to adnan Aug 24 2012, 1:16pm
        What do you mean by this? imin Send a private message to imin Aug 24 2012, 2:34pm
            Let me clarify that then. thirdeblue Send a private message to thirdeblue Aug 25 2012, 12:54pm
                Wait Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 25 2012, 7:25pm
                    Denethor thirdeblue Send a private message to thirdeblue Aug 28 2012, 1:55pm
    I agree 100%. RosieLass Send a private message to RosieLass Aug 23 2012, 9:45pm
    I honestly don't mind most of these additions Carne Send a private message to Carne Aug 23 2012, 9:52pm
    No compelling reason? Pipe Dream Send a private message to Pipe Dream Aug 23 2012, 10:07pm
        Oh how wrong you are... Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Aug 24 2012, 1:52am
            It's not the icing's fault if the cake is a lie. Pipe Dream Send a private message to Pipe Dream Aug 24 2012, 7:18am
                I'm not sure I get your metaphor Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Aug 24 2012, 3:32pm
    I'm sorry There&ThereAgain Send a private message to There&ThereAgain Aug 23 2012, 10:15pm
    Agree with the piece Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 23 2012, 10:16pm
    hmm very interesting imin Send a private message to imin Aug 23 2012, 10:23pm
    FANTASTIC article, but DesiringDragons Send a private message to DesiringDragons Aug 23 2012, 10:33pm
    The Hobbit burgahobbit Send a private message to burgahobbit Aug 23 2012, 10:43pm
    Well, we all make choices. Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Aug 23 2012, 10:50pm
    Well, yes and no for me.... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Aug 23 2012, 11:01pm
        I fully agree with this post. // Maiarmike Send a private message to Maiarmike Aug 24 2012, 1:17am
        Fully agreed with Dormouse // macfalk Send a private message to macfalk Aug 24 2012, 2:03pm
    Hobbit Snowghost77 Send a private message to Snowghost77 Aug 23 2012, 11:04pm
        Expression JWPlatt Aug 23 2012, 11:07pm
        As far as I know... RosieLass Send a private message to RosieLass Aug 23 2012, 11:08pm
            Hobbit Snowghost77 Send a private message to Snowghost77 Aug 23 2012, 11:26pm
                But a well-reasoned article is interesting to read DesiringDragons Send a private message to DesiringDragons Aug 23 2012, 11:36pm
                Irony JWPlatt Aug 24 2012, 1:20am
                    Irony Snowghost77 Send a private message to Snowghost77 Aug 24 2012, 2:00am
                        Got It JWPlatt Aug 24 2012, 2:26am
                            Irony Snowghost77 Send a private message to Snowghost77 Aug 24 2012, 6:42pm
                Complaints and criticisms can make for very interesting discussion, AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 24 2012, 6:54pm
            Speaking of negative... Avnar Send a private message to Avnar Aug 23 2012, 11:54pm
                Agreed as well redgiraffe Send a private message to redgiraffe Aug 24 2012, 12:17am
    I think he's taking Jackson's statements too literally - Still a good article though kzer_za Send a private message to kzer_za Aug 23 2012, 11:28pm
        You could cut the movies and make your own version of the Hobbit, More close to the book, so why complain? Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Aug 24 2012, 2:04pm
            No need to shout entmaiden Send a private message to entmaiden Aug 24 2012, 4:34pm
                Oh dear! Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Send a private message to Mr. Arkenstone (isaac) Aug 24 2012, 7:58pm
            The Hobbit - Seamless Branch JWPlatt Aug 24 2012, 4:48pm
    Patience apparently is not a virtue Tim Send a private message to Tim Aug 23 2012, 11:37pm
        This is a forum for hardcore fans. Speculation is part of what we do // kzer_za Send a private message to kzer_za Aug 23 2012, 11:41pm
            Who you callin' hardcore? Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Aug 23 2012, 11:51pm
                I AM NOT kept in Ward 51 . . . TomthePilgrim Send a private message to TomthePilgrim Aug 24 2012, 12:21am
        This is the post I agree with the most redgiraffe Send a private message to redgiraffe Aug 24 2012, 12:14am
            The OP was pure rubbish. Black Breathalizer Send a private message to Black Breathalizer Aug 24 2012, 12:59am
    Absolutely agree... Compa_Mighty Send a private message to Compa_Mighty Aug 24 2012, 12:03am
        Word Snowghost77 Send a private message to Snowghost77 Aug 24 2012, 12:11am
    Only a new cast with a completely new production could have done what you argue for... Unspoken_Request Send a private message to Unspoken_Request Aug 24 2012, 12:34am
    This was an interesting article Ziggy Stardust Send a private message to Ziggy Stardust Aug 24 2012, 12:46am
    Oooh, another post about how Jackson doesn't know what he's doing on these movies... Maiarmike Send a private message to Maiarmike Aug 24 2012, 1:15am
        I find it consistently astounding Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 24 2012, 1:26am
            Are we reading the same post? Milknut Send a private message to Milknut Aug 24 2012, 1:55am
    I disagree. Istaris'staffs Send a private message to Istaris'staffs Aug 24 2012, 1:46am
        Istaris'staffs NAILED it. Well said. Black Breathalizer Send a private message to Black Breathalizer Aug 24 2012, 1:58am
        Yes he did Boulderfist Send a private message to Boulderfist Aug 24 2012, 2:28am
        well said Lindele Send a private message to Lindele Aug 24 2012, 2:15pm
    thoughtful article, but I disagree. lyndomiel Send a private message to lyndomiel Aug 24 2012, 2:47am
        Well said! Buchanicus Send a private message to Buchanicus Aug 24 2012, 4:00am
            Someone had a great post in the comments section of the article Buchanicus Send a private message to Buchanicus Aug 24 2012, 4:02am
                Outstanding! Boulderfist Send a private message to Boulderfist Aug 24 2012, 4:12am
                This was amazing Junesong Send a private message to Junesong Aug 24 2012, 4:20am
                Thanks Buchanicus for this excellent re-post! lyndomiel Send a private message to lyndomiel Aug 24 2012, 11:29am
                Some of the changes in LotR make no sense, even ignoring the book. Zubeneschamali Send a private message to Zubeneschamali Aug 24 2012, 2:21pm
                    Not quite fair, IMO Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 24 2012, 2:27pm
                        well Lusitano Send a private message to Lusitano Aug 24 2012, 5:16pm
                            So Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Aug 24 2012, 6:54pm
                                He decided to let Christopher Tolkien answer those questions :P // imin Send a private message to imin Aug 24 2012, 6:55pm
                                LOL lyndomiel Send a private message to lyndomiel Aug 24 2012, 7:01pm
        Well said, Lyndomiel redgiraffe Send a private message to redgiraffe Aug 24 2012, 4:53am
            redgiraffe I have a reply to your siggy Tim Send a private message to Tim Aug 24 2012, 7:43am
                LOL redgiraffe Send a private message to redgiraffe Aug 24 2012, 10:46am
            Yes - and ... lyndomiel Send a private message to lyndomiel Aug 24 2012, 4:00pm
        You assume that every cut was based on time constraints or the need to make the story flow AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 24 2012, 7:37pm
            it is a fait accomplit lyndomiel Send a private message to lyndomiel Aug 24 2012, 9:20pm
    so basically you want the animated film turned into a... MouthofSauron Send a private message to MouthofSauron Aug 24 2012, 5:22am
        What Tolkien "should have done"?? The Hobbit the way it "should have been"??? RosieLass Send a private message to RosieLass Aug 24 2012, 6:37am
            actually.... MouthofSauron Send a private message to MouthofSauron Aug 24 2012, 7:35am
    Posted on the article, now here Owlyross Send a private message to Owlyross Aug 24 2012, 12:57pm
        You may want to go back Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 24 2012, 2:07pm
            No revisionism here Owlyross Send a private message to Owlyross Aug 24 2012, 2:40pm
                Understood Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 24 2012, 2:47pm
                I can see where both of you are coming from imin Send a private message to imin Aug 24 2012, 2:52pm
                    I read The Hobbit first Owlyross Send a private message to Owlyross Aug 24 2012, 3:04pm
    Seriously? Lindele Send a private message to Lindele Aug 24 2012, 2:14pm
        The author said nothing about PJ "not having the right" Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 24 2012, 2:22pm
            My problem Lindele Send a private message to Lindele Aug 24 2012, 2:40pm
            My thought exactly . . . TomthePilgrim Send a private message to TomthePilgrim Aug 24 2012, 2:52pm
                That's my hope as well! Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 24 2012, 2:57pm
                    I said I was done . . . TomthePilgrim Send a private message to TomthePilgrim Aug 24 2012, 3:32pm
    PJ's goodwill with fans pettytyrant101 Send a private message to pettytyrant101 Aug 24 2012, 2:53pm
        yeah, it's obvious Lindele Send a private message to Lindele Aug 24 2012, 3:07pm
            I think to a degree he has to be pettytyrant101 Send a private message to pettytyrant101 Aug 24 2012, 3:28pm
                The Coven JWPlatt Aug 24 2012, 3:32pm
                    Bit harsh but you're almost correct. Spaldron Send a private message to Spaldron Aug 24 2012, 3:45pm
                        Humor JWPlatt Aug 24 2012, 4:05pm
                    Boyens is the worst, IMO Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 24 2012, 3:52pm
                        Ohhhhhhhh . . . . . . . . . TomthePilgrim Send a private message to TomthePilgrim Aug 24 2012, 4:04pm
                            Ditto.., lyndomiel Send a private message to lyndomiel Aug 24 2012, 4:25pm
                                Perhaps Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 24 2012, 5:47pm
                                    Yes..... and its just personal preferences lyndomiel Send a private message to lyndomiel Aug 24 2012, 6:57pm
                                        IMO Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 24 2012, 7:29pm
                                            IIRC geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 24 2012, 7:48pm
                                                If that is true Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 24 2012, 10:53pm
                                                    I've tried to find the original article geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 25 2012, 11:09am
                                                        Just to add.... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Aug 25 2012, 11:23am
                                                            Hi, Dormouse - geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 25 2012, 11:36am
                                                                Hello geordie... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Aug 25 2012, 1:07pm
                                                                    I'm back - geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 25 2012, 2:03pm
                                                                        Ah.... well... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Aug 25 2012, 2:28pm
                                                                            Well I have a somewhat jaundiced view - geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 25 2012, 2:54pm
                                                                                Well, OK.... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Aug 25 2012, 4:18pm
                                                                                    Excellent post, dormouse // macfalk Send a private message to macfalk Aug 25 2012, 4:34pm
                                                                                    On a (fairly) unrelated note - geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 25 2012, 4:40pm
                                                                                    Really great post here Dormouse imin Send a private message to imin Aug 25 2012, 4:47pm
                                                                                        I'll take it that you mean it sincerely - geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 25 2012, 5:20pm
                                                                                            Yeah i meant it :) imin Send a private message to imin Aug 25 2012, 5:54pm
                                                                                                I thought as much - geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 25 2012, 6:14pm
                                                                                                    I know about your collection from the other site as well :) // imin Send a private message to imin Aug 25 2012, 6:46pm
                                                                                                        Oh! ah... well, then... geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 25 2012, 6:51pm
                                                                                    Just going back to pJ's claims again - geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 25 2012, 5:17pm
                                                                                        "Changing the Law" macfalk Send a private message to macfalk Aug 25 2012, 6:01pm
                                                                                    There are so many ways to tell a story. lyndomiel Send a private message to lyndomiel Aug 25 2012, 6:11pm
                                                                                        That's a point geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 25 2012, 6:30pm
                                                                                            Dwarvish, dwarven, elven, elfish etc macfalk Send a private message to macfalk Aug 25 2012, 6:35pm
                                                                                                It's not just you - geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 25 2012, 6:54pm
                                                                                            Oops lyndomiel Send a private message to lyndomiel Aug 25 2012, 7:32pm
                                                                                                Yes and no - geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 25 2012, 8:22pm
                                                                                                    Not at all. I appreciate your encyclopedic brain. lyndomiel Send a private message to lyndomiel Aug 25 2012, 10:21pm
                                                                                                        Thanks geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 27 2012, 11:06am
                                                                                    I wish this was relevant to me Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 25 2012, 7:30pm
                                                                            This is largely due Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 25 2012, 7:31pm
                                                                    It does seem that Boyens had more writing experience than I suggested Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 25 2012, 7:28pm
                                                                        What's wrong with being a rookie? macfalk Send a private message to macfalk Aug 25 2012, 7:30pm
                                                Any idea where this interview might be? DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Aug 24 2012, 10:56pm
                                                    Hi, daniel, geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 25 2012, 10:49am
                                                        Not to worry geordie :-) DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Aug 25 2012, 11:58am
                                                            However geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 27 2012, 8:59am
                                            I think Jettorex Send a private message to Jettorex Aug 24 2012, 8:31pm
                                                Dogma JWPlatt Aug 24 2012, 8:52pm
                                                That argument isn't likely to gain you any ground with this crowd... Aragorn the Elfstone Send a private message to Aragorn the Elfstone Aug 24 2012, 11:03pm
                                                    Philippa seems like a perfectly smart and wonderful woman Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 24 2012, 11:07pm
                                                        IMO PJ & Fran's picking of her definitely showed... Aragorn the Elfstone Send a private message to Aragorn the Elfstone Aug 24 2012, 11:25pm
                                                        Question away Tim Send a private message to Tim Aug 24 2012, 11:32pm
                                                        It's funny Istaris'staffs Send a private message to Istaris'staffs Aug 25 2012, 1:14am
                                                            thank you MouthofSauron Send a private message to MouthofSauron Aug 25 2012, 1:22am
                                            Your O is your O, Shelob'sAppetite.... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Aug 25 2012, 11:15am
                        Dramatic Reversal & Growth JWPlatt Aug 24 2012, 4:22pm
                        Just to be clear, Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Aug 24 2012, 11:57pm
                            The script was one the weakest parts of the LOTR films. RosieLass Send a private message to RosieLass Aug 25 2012, 12:51am
                                how many times do you guys have to be reminded of this Fact MouthofSauron Send a private message to MouthofSauron Aug 25 2012, 1:10am
                                    And how many times do YOU have to be reminded of this fact? RosieLass Send a private message to RosieLass Aug 25 2012, 1:13am
                                    It doesn't surprise me terribly Escapist Send a private message to Escapist Aug 25 2012, 1:25am
                                        About this... Spaldron Send a private message to Spaldron Aug 25 2012, 3:10am
                                            When you say the Gollum/Smeagol schizo scene - geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 25 2012, 11:56am
                                                thats in TTT Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Aug 25 2012, 9:02pm
                                    The old you want the book on film argument again, oh dear pettytyrant101 Send a private message to pettytyrant101 Aug 25 2012, 1:34am
                                        you have a voice, yes of course MouthofSauron Send a private message to MouthofSauron Aug 25 2012, 1:41am
                                            While Peter certainly deserves credit, I think it does some disservice to AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 25 2012, 2:04am
                                                I definitely don't agree with that. Aragorn the Elfstone Send a private message to Aragorn the Elfstone Aug 25 2012, 2:51am
                                                    But a live action Tolkien film had never been tried before Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 25 2012, 3:16am
                                                        I maintain my position. Aragorn the Elfstone Send a private message to Aragorn the Elfstone Aug 25 2012, 3:19am
                                                    Not unthinkable when the film in question was The Lord of The Rings. Also, the demographic of The Acadamy AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 25 2012, 3:18am
                                                        Is that the same demographic... Aragorn the Elfstone Send a private message to Aragorn the Elfstone Aug 25 2012, 3:29am
                                                            Yes. It is. They did not grow up on James Cameron's Avatar. It does not have the same AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 25 2012, 4:07am
                                        Excellently stated. The second paragraph is especially accurate. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 25 2012, 1:42am
                                    That is not a coverall excuse. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 25 2012, 1:39am
                                I believe the scipt was one of the strongest parts of these films... Aragorn the Elfstone Send a private message to Aragorn the Elfstone Aug 25 2012, 2:05am
                                    Doing the job Tim Send a private message to Tim Aug 25 2012, 2:41am
                                        Why pull any punches? RosieLass Send a private message to RosieLass Aug 25 2012, 4:16am
                                            There's no punch to pull Tim Send a private message to Tim Aug 25 2012, 9:03am
                                Yes! Eowyn of Penns Woods Send a private message to Eowyn of Penns Woods Aug 25 2012, 2:39am
                            As noone has revealed what parts of the script she is most responsible for Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 25 2012, 3:12am
    Can't say I agree with this Spaldron Send a private message to Spaldron Aug 24 2012, 3:11pm
        EXACTLY Lindele Send a private message to Lindele Aug 24 2012, 3:13pm
            So it is unprofessional Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 24 2012, 3:47pm
                you seem to be Lindele Send a private message to Lindele Aug 24 2012, 4:20pm
            Groupies JWPlatt Aug 24 2012, 4:12pm
                my comment Lindele Send a private message to Lindele Aug 24 2012, 4:33pm
                    And look! More groupie bread. JWPlatt Aug 24 2012, 4:42pm
                    his arguments are his opinion Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Aug 24 2012, 4:52pm
                        well if you go back Lindele Send a private message to Lindele Aug 24 2012, 5:46pm
                I really don't understand that . . . TomthePilgrim Send a private message to TomthePilgrim Aug 24 2012, 4:51pm
            I'm afraid I'll have to agree with JWPlatt. TomthePilgrim Send a private message to TomthePilgrim Aug 24 2012, 4:58pm
                hmmmm, Lindele Send a private message to Lindele Aug 24 2012, 5:44pm
                    well maybe its unprofessional then Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Aug 24 2012, 5:50pm
                        What if... JWPlatt Aug 24 2012, 5:55pm
                        if that is what you Lindele Send a private message to Lindele Aug 24 2012, 5:55pm
                            Sarcasm JWPlatt Aug 24 2012, 5:56pm
                                i understood the sarcasm... Lindele Send a private message to Lindele Aug 24 2012, 5:59pm
                                    If you could make the movies yourself what would you do? imin Send a private message to imin Aug 24 2012, 6:04pm
                                        I would appreciate Lindele Send a private message to Lindele Aug 24 2012, 6:14pm
                                            Thanks for reply imin Send a private message to imin Aug 24 2012, 6:46pm
                                        Preference JWPlatt Aug 24 2012, 6:22pm
                                Sarcasm... hey I resemble that remark Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Aug 24 2012, 6:02pm
                            Nope I am not Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Aug 24 2012, 6:00pm
                                Well since shadowdog Send a private message to shadowdog Aug 24 2012, 10:24pm
                                    The Complaint JWPlatt Aug 24 2012, 10:37pm
                                    well lets see... Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Aug 25 2012, 3:24am
                                        and how do we know MouthofSauron Send a private message to MouthofSauron Aug 25 2012, 3:39am
                                            comic con people have said Gollum/Smeagol conversations occur during what was shown of that scene from what I have heard Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Aug 25 2012, 3:45am
            And many of us have been dissapointed with some of the other reviews, AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 24 2012, 8:04pm
        I also can's say I agree more. Mithreinmaethor Send a private message to Mithreinmaethor Aug 24 2012, 3:18pm
            Themes. Bumblingidiot Send a private message to Bumblingidiot Aug 24 2012, 3:36pm
    I respect ostadan's opinion but I completely disagree! That's the whole point of installing a FORUM, no? :) Jago M Send a private message to Jago M Aug 24 2012, 4:21pm
    Appendices VS. FanFic MTT Gandalf Send a private message to MTT Gandalf Aug 24 2012, 5:21pm
        well considering Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Aug 24 2012, 5:45pm
            Well, MTT Gandalf Send a private message to MTT Gandalf Aug 25 2012, 12:54pm
                but the fact remains Sinister71 Send a private message to Sinister71 Aug 25 2012, 3:55pm
        You speak for me very well in this matter. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 24 2012, 8:18pm
        The fanfic part is bothersome Nightwing Send a private message to Nightwing Aug 25 2012, 5:42pm
            This is why I think an different film adaptation of The Hobbit is very likely to AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 25 2012, 6:34pm
                I'd be very surprised if the studios waited 25 years Flagg Send a private message to Flagg Aug 25 2012, 7:12pm
                    Flagg macfalk Send a private message to macfalk Aug 25 2012, 7:21pm
                        Again, I think The Hobbit is more likely. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 25 2012, 8:09pm
                            Gandalf JWPlatt Aug 25 2012, 8:25pm
                                Interesting point about Gandalf. Macfeast Send a private message to Macfeast Aug 25 2012, 8:46pm
                                Is Gandalf really a bit part in The Hobbit? AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 25 2012, 9:26pm
                                    As You Said In A Very Recent Post JWPlatt Aug 25 2012, 9:32pm
                                        Touche`. And still, you take my meaning. lol AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 25 2012, 9:35pm
                            But rereading LOTR last month Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 25 2012, 8:52pm
                    I am actually inclined to agree, but I didn't want to give any devout PJ fans undue AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 25 2012, 8:06pm
    I was never a big fan of the additions rings7 Send a private message to rings7 Aug 24 2012, 6:01pm
    I agree geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 24 2012, 7:54pm
    My main problem with the article is that it infers too much elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Aug 24 2012, 8:01pm
        Well I think shadowdog Send a private message to shadowdog Aug 24 2012, 10:44pm
            there is more than just either wanting pj to adapt the books into films imin Send a private message to imin Aug 24 2012, 10:58pm
                The point shadowdog Send a private message to shadowdog Aug 25 2012, 3:21am
                    I think most people here are well aware of that.. elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Aug 25 2012, 6:58am
            No Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 24 2012, 11:04pm
                Cuaron made the best HP film... Spaldron Send a private message to Spaldron Aug 25 2012, 12:36am
                    That is highly debatable. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 25 2012, 12:49am
                    Cuaron elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Aug 25 2012, 6:51am
                        Great points Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 25 2012, 7:09am
                            no-one will ever dare attempt to reboot LOTR's MouthofSauron Send a private message to MouthofSauron Aug 25 2012, 7:18am
                                Alfonso Cuaron Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 25 2012, 7:34am
                                    They will be re-adapted one day imin Send a private message to imin Aug 25 2012, 8:27am
                                    IMO, Cuaron is vastly overrated macfalk Send a private message to macfalk Aug 25 2012, 10:42am
                                        Children of Men Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 25 2012, 7:18pm
                                            Well macfalk Send a private message to macfalk Aug 25 2012, 7:21pm
                                Someone may well eventually re-make Ben Hur. The Ten Commandments has AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 25 2012, 6:01pm
                                    Not quite Flagg Send a private message to Flagg Aug 25 2012, 6:12pm
                                        True enough, though you take my meaning. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 25 2012, 6:18pm
                                I actually think we are more likely to get a Hobbit remake within the next 25 years, AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Aug 25 2012, 6:16pm
                Christopher Nolan might do well also.// Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Aug 25 2012, 12:42am
                    Oh, yes Shelob'sAppetite Send a private message to Shelob'sAppetite Aug 25 2012, 3:07am
            I´m not sure I understand why you ask elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Aug 24 2012, 11:49pm
    "it’s not The Hobbit" dwarf_girl Send a private message to dwarf_girl Aug 24 2012, 9:31pm
    I'd just like to go on record... Aragorn the Elfstone Send a private message to Aragorn the Elfstone Aug 24 2012, 10:42pm
    Superb article, Ostadan! Morthoron Send a private message to Morthoron Aug 25 2012, 2:34am
        I agree with your post, Morthoron geordie Send a private message to geordie Aug 25 2012, 11:16am
            It's not a franchise // macfalk Send a private message to macfalk Aug 25 2012, 11:19am
    PJ as director Noria Send a private message to Noria Aug 25 2012, 2:23pm
        Grumpy Old Men lyndomiel Send a private message to lyndomiel Aug 25 2012, 5:55pm
    Discussion thread edited to remove personal attacks. Ataahua Send a private message to Ataahua Aug 25 2012, 9:05pm

 
 
 

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