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Tolkien Estate HATES these movies?
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 18 2012, 4:10pm

Post #26 of 245 (1610 views)
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This seems a little obnoxious as an assertion [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, he has the right to appreciate them. . . but he certainly does not HAVE to, and if he finds more fault than favour, that is his right too.

I think the movies get more right than they get wrong, but the DEFINITELY do take certain liberties, and some of them are not for the better. It is easy enough to see how any one of the many changes could really put off a purist, and it would be surprising if Christopher were not something of a purist.

In Reply To
Christopher Tolkien has every right to appreciate the films and he has sufficient reason to as well.

They are,, largely great films that embrace the source material through some truly serious and carefull treatment. There are many moments of brilliance, and some very good design choices by Lee and Howe, so overall a good, even if flawed adaptation.

Compared to the books, they are not as good obviously, but shine on their own.

Tongue


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 18 2012, 4:12pm

Post #27 of 245 (1683 views)
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But that's unfair [In reply to] Can't Post

You are simply assuming that since Christopher Tolkien does not like the films, he is not open and broad-minded.

How do you know that he wouldn't have reacted positively to a different version of the films, created by a different director that better captured the spirit and tone of the books, from his perspective?

There is a tendency to assume that since someone does not share your opinion on something, they are closed-minded.

No, they just have a different opinion than you do on the matter.

The closed-minded person is the one who insists that a different opinion is evidence of closed-mindedness! Smile

Personally, I am very open and broad-minded when it comes to social issues, art, etc. And I just think PJ's films aren't very good!


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Aug 18 2012, 4:17pm)


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 18 2012, 4:15pm

Post #28 of 245 (1613 views)
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No, I haven't met him in person [In reply to] Can't Post

I corresponded with him. This was after the films. I didn't think he'd have the time for me, but as I said, he was just really down to earth and, well, cool :)

I mean, he kept up the correspondence over a few rounds, which surprised and delighted me. Great guy!



The Plan 9 Interview... in celebration of the 10th anniversary of the release of The Fellowship of the Ring.


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 18 2012, 4:22pm

Post #29 of 245 (1672 views)
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Well, Peter Jackson did approach the TE back in the day [In reply to] Can't Post

I recall hearing (I think it on the Appendices) that PJ approached the TE for some sort of collaboration on the films, but he was simply ignored.

That, and the fact that CT has openly said he's averse to adaptations of his father's works, leads me to believe that he is, in fact, close-minded. He wants the books to be the beginning and the end of the matter.


Quote
How do you know that he wouldn't have reacted positively to a different version of the films, created by a different director that better captured the spirit and tone of the films, from his perspective?


I don't know, but can deduce, that CT wouldn't have reacted positively to a different version of the films because of what I said above. He had the chance of collaborating with the production on LOTR, possibly even The Hobbit. There are lots of film adaptations nowadays where authors collaborate for a richer, truer adaptation of their works. If CT was supportive of one such, he would have done it.

My hope is that the TE will someday collaborate with a studio on an adaptation of The Silmarillion.



The Plan 9 Interview... in celebration of the 10th anniversary of the release of The Fellowship of the Ring.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2012, 4:24pm

Post #30 of 245 (1655 views)
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Shelob [In reply to] Can't Post

Thats not what i said.

I didnt say my opinion is superior nor more valuable than his. You said that.
But on this subject which i explain down here i have a good claim at understanding things since i enjoy and support what he doenst seem to appreciate...so i disagree with him. You deal with it.

And please, keep those flaming daggers away. I can sense your " oh no how dared he attack Ctolkien" attitude ...miles away.

He underestimates the power and reach and benefits that any adaptation can add to the greater expansion of the original work ...be it video games, miniatures, posters , movies....slot machines with lotr names and references..i can certainly understand a disgust with it...but not those other things...

Just because a great literary work is adapted into many different visual and material mediums and is expanded to many different audiences with different appreciations, takes and preferences on it, doesnt mean the value and themes of the original work become diluted and warped into some cheap couldron of mediocrity that is against the original work.

On the contrary...because of the expansion of tolkiens work into other mediums, an enourmous amount of people have come discover and love tolkiens books...he underestimates this...

Also, as RArmitage said recently, middle earth has the scope and quality of a mythology..and mythologies are translated, and retold, re appreciated in many, many different ways throughout the ages...that is what is going to happen to middle earth ...and that is a testament to its value, not a chepening of it...

So yes i disagree with him and look forward to a different attitude by his sucessor...


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 18 2012, 4:28pm

Post #31 of 245 (1698 views)
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C.Tolkien is very set in his ways and opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

I was never surprised by his lack of interest in the films. It does look hopeful for future generations though. Would they really want to go against his will (and JRRT's)?

Like I said above though, I don't like the sound of a Silmarillion film. I have more attachement to it, than LOTR or TH.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 18 2012, 4:28pm

Post #32 of 245 (1630 views)
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It would have been nice if The Tolkiens had been allowed at least some [In reply to] Can't Post

adaptation input. I am certain that the relative faithfulness of Harry Potter can be attributed to the fact that she was not shut out of the adaptations.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2012, 4:30pm

Post #33 of 245 (1527 views)
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hmm [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course he doenst have to...who says he has to?

But i dont follow your comment Ainur...obnoxious? It was a joke, the bizarro text...


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 18 2012, 4:31pm

Post #34 of 245 (1567 views)
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I wouldn't say the HP films are any more faithful than the LOTR films [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
adaptation input. I am certain that the relative faithfulness of Harry Potter can be attributed to the fact that she was not shut out of the adaptations.



Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2012, 4:32pm

Post #35 of 245 (1544 views)
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well [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes he does...but you have to wonder...it would have been much better if he had collaborated with the production..it was the adaptation of his fathers work...it deserved his attention...


Beutlin
Rivendell

Aug 18 2012, 4:33pm

Post #36 of 245 (1683 views)
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I find that quote highly amusing. [In reply to] Can't Post

As a matter of fact, most people who have read the "Lord of the Rings" for the first time have done so in their teens - the book itself is regarded as a work for adolescents (regardless of whether Tolkien intended to write it for the same group of people).

Ceterum censeo montem artis magicae atrae esse delendum.


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 18 2012, 4:34pm

Post #37 of 245 (1583 views)
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As I said above [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ did reach out to them, so his intentions were, indeed, as he said, to make the best adaptation he could.

As one who likes PJ's films a lot and yet believes they could have been so much better, I can only shake my head in sadness.



The Plan 9 Interview... in celebration of the 10th anniversary of the release of The Fellowship of the Ring.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 18 2012, 4:37pm

Post #38 of 245 (1607 views)
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I don't mind criticism of C. Tolkien at all [In reply to] Can't Post

And have, on occasion, criticized both his and his father's assessments of why their fanbase was so large and diverse (something that seemed to perplex them).

So, your accusations are unfounded and ridiculous.

What I am doing is simply highlighting the simple fact that you think Christopher Tolkien does not "understand" certain things that you do, which may somehow be the reason for him not liking the films. Unless evidence suggests otherwise, I will simply assume that he doesn't like the films because he doesn't like them!


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Aug 18 2012, 4:38pm

Post #39 of 245 (1564 views)
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Success Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

Stories abound of original material being done from the heart by artists for reasons of altruism or intellectual pursuit which is then raped for financial gain, stripped and played on its popular appeal of the masses. Also keep in mind this was material inspired for the same children of the creator and who now control their father's assets. It is probably to them like selling the family home to a bordello.

Personally, I don't think it's become a bordello; more like a well-run family carnival where children and their families can play all day in safety. That's nto so bad. The Tolkien Estate (I differentiate the Estate from the family because there's more involved, especially lawyers whose advocacy usually makes anyone appear evil) is unreasonably stiff and unfriendly to what we would enjoy - namely the rights to fully develop the history of Middle Earth.

I find the comment that if the Tolkiens don't enjoy the movies, they should not share in the profits distasteful. The movies are based upon their father's original work. He would certainly deserve compensation were he still alive whether he enjoyed the movies or not, and indications are that he would not. Their father would want any proceeds to benefit his children. That's why there are wills and estates. Further, if the children of JRR Tolkien are not enjoying the process, they have even more due them and what is reprehensible is when studios attempt to avoid such accountability and responsibility.


macfalk
Valinor


Aug 18 2012, 4:38pm

Post #40 of 245 (1555 views)
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I agree, very sad. [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ reached out to them, a nice gesture, yet CT gave him the cold hand. Not even a "good luck". One can only hope that whoever takes over things after CT will be more open minded and helpful, and not so isolated.


JRR Tolkien made his choice back then - he sold the rights to TH and LOTR willingly. Willingly. For a profit. This decision should have been honored and not ignored.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.

(This post was edited by macfalk on Aug 18 2012, 4:41pm)


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2012, 4:43pm

Post #41 of 245 (1602 views)
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amusing comment [In reply to] Can't Post

Eviscerated...i disagree with such a word to describe the adaptations...its too strong and implies a destruction of the original material...

haha this make sme laugh with sadness...i remember back in the lotr days...many many young teens and young people DIDNT appreciate fellowship and two towers because , and i quote : they were boring as hell, NO ACTION ...but the third was fun! Lots of ACTION! "

So yes, the only reason why many of the people CTolkien claims the movies were created for, didnt like the first two movies was because they were dull, boring, with people walking and talking , and conversations about history, and nature etc...and enjoyed rotk solely because they was " action" ...


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 18 2012, 4:44pm

Post #42 of 245 (1607 views)
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If [In reply to] Can't Post

The Director of Bad Taste, Meet the Feebles and the Frighteners approached me and offered to turn my father's memoirs into a film, I would not only NOT tell him good luck, I would actively try to make sure he didn't do it.


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Aug 18 2012, 4:45pm)


Tim
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2012, 4:44pm

Post #43 of 245 (1554 views)
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Doesn't really matter [In reply to] Can't Post

I enjoyed the books. I enjoyed the films. It doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks of them, since it can't change my experience.

King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.

Tim: Quite.


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 18 2012, 4:45pm

Post #44 of 245 (1532 views)
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Ifs and buts [In reply to] Can't Post

It could've been worse!


macfalk
Valinor


Aug 18 2012, 4:47pm

Post #45 of 245 (1603 views)
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And Heavenly Creatures... [In reply to] Can't Post

And still, it doesn't matter. JRRT sold the rights and PJ had them and was going to make the best possible adaption as he possibly could. To not even wish a good luck at that point on the start of the journey is, IMHO, bad manners.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.

(This post was edited by macfalk on Aug 18 2012, 4:49pm)


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2012, 4:50pm

Post #46 of 245 (1544 views)
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sh [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, that was the feeling i got from your response, that you were in Attack mode...especially when you add more things to my own words...

But i didnt say he didnt like the films, because he doenst understand what i explained on my larger post...two different things...
I was refering to his comments on the commercialisation and the loss of value of the original works ...

I too think he doenst like the films because he doenst like them, although there are other reasons too i think...


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 18 2012, 4:52pm

Post #47 of 245 (1583 views)
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JRR Tolkien was not your father [In reply to] Can't Post

So, I think it is a little unfair to accuse Christopher of bad manners. Again, if my father's work was being adapted by someone who I thought was woefully wrong for the job, I would not wish that person good luck. I would do everything in my legal power to try to stop it from happening. And, as we know, Christopher certainly did not go that far!


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Aug 18 2012, 4:53pm)


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2012, 4:53pm

Post #48 of 245 (1508 views)
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danielb [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes it could have....i often say, that we could have gotten some hollywood guy like Stefen Fangmeier...MadPirate


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2012, 4:56pm

Post #49 of 245 (1473 views)
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well [In reply to] Can't Post

Did christopher said anything about the choice of director at the time?


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 18 2012, 4:58pm

Post #50 of 245 (1521 views)
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Yes, I have to agree [In reply to] Can't Post

There's two different perspectives here: a) one's personal perspective, and b) C.Tolkien's perspective.

Personally, it's bad manners not to wish someone good luck. But C.Tolkien didn't want a film. He doesn't have to be polite Wink

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