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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
*MAJOR SPOILERS* Official Figurine Descriptions
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Hanzkaz
Rohan

Aug 16 2012, 3:41pm

Post #126 of 162 (2909 views)
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It's starting to look - [In reply to] Can't Post

- as though the Battle of Five Armies is the culmination of both the Dol Guldur and Dragon storylines.

So -

Hobbit Film 1 : Getting There
Hobbit Film 2 : Taking Down The Main Bad Guys
Hobbit Film 3 : Unfinished Business

I suspect Azog gets killed (again?) at Dol Guldur in the second movie, then Bolg decides to get payback in the third.

(I'm thinking that in the original version of story, an audience might be a bit sympathetic for Bolg. I mean, the Dwarves killed his Dad all those years ago, back when he was just a little Orcling....)


Macfeast
Rohan

Aug 16 2012, 3:42pm

Post #127 of 162 (2909 views)
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Random observations. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf: "On his way Gandalf finds indication that the world could be haunted by an ancient evil. To get to the truth of the matter, Gandalf has to leave his companions on their own devices - his own path leads him into the darkest corners of Middle-earth, where he found his worst suspicions confirmed." So the strike against Dol Guldur is not something the White Council had planned beforehand, but something Gandalf finds necessary when the Quest for Erebor is already underway? Will he still visit Dol Guldur beforehand and retrieve Thráin's map and key, or will it all be combined into one single visit?

Bofur: "The sympathetic Bofur has the terrible habit to utter self-evident things." He's going to utter the next "they're taking the Hobbits to Isengard".

Thranduil: "An ancient, bitter feud led to the situation that he basically rejects all dwarves - and especially a certain dwarf, namely Thorin Oakenshield." Hmm. An animosity towards the dwarves is understandable, but why Thorin especially? Sounds more personal than simply a rejection of the Longbeard's royal line.

Azog: "It was said that Azog the Desecrator fell many years ago in the great battle between the Orcs and the Dwarves. But now he appears again at the top of a deadly horde of killer orcs." A rather literal application of Sauron's title as the Necromancer, it would seem. Either that, or Dáin's decapitation didn't turn out quite as...decapitating.

Bolg: This husky Orc fears nothing and nobody - until he suddenly meets an unexpected opponent. This unexpected opponent being Gandalf seems likely.


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 16 2012, 3:56pm

Post #128 of 162 (2905 views)
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Well the text does support links between Sauron and the Orcs [In reply to] Can't Post

I think there are perfectly good readings of the appendices which suggest links between Sauron and the Orcs of Azog/ Bolg. Now to what extent Sauron exerted control is up to interpretation but there are clues to support the idea.

Firstly the concrete:

"C2480. Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains so as to bar all the passes into Eriador. Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures."
ROTK

So we can be sure that Moria at this time an for a period afterwards was peopled with Sauron's creatures. This could well have included Azog himself or it is possible that Azog took over leadership. Here we run into the question of how long Orcs live - to which we have no consistent answer but Bolg lived for 151 years at the least, so Azog may well have been a creature of Sauron to some extent.

As a secondary point we may wonder why the Orcs should populated strongholds in order to bar all passage across the mountains if not influenced by some wider strategy. It is certainly not an obvious tactic for a series of unco-ordinated robber bands.

We have other suggestions in support of this link:

"The power of Sauron, servant of Morgoth, was then again growing in the world, though the Shadow in the Forest that looked towards Moria was not yet known for what it was. All evil things were stirring."
ROTK

And

"Orcs again multiply in secret and occupy many deep places (especially those anciently made by the Dwarves) in the Misty Mountains. They do this so stealthily that none are aware of it, until they have great forces hidden and are ready to bar all the passes from Eriador into Anduin's vales, according to the plan of their master in Dol Guldur. Orcs and Trolls occupy parts of the now empty Mines of Moria."
The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12.

We also have a belief on the part of the Dwarves that the misfortunes of Thorin's family, which were in no small part the doing of the Orcs in question were ultimately caused by Sauron.

"None the less it may well be, as the Dwarves now believe, that Sauron by his arts had discovered who had this Ring, the last to remain free, and that the singular misfortunes of the heirs of Durin were largely due to his malice."
ROTK

Now I do not seek to make the case that there is only one possible reading or that it needs to be all or nothing. But I do think that, given no evidence to the contrary, it is not an illegitimate view to hold that Sauron did exert at least some control over the Orcs in the Misty Mountains.

LR


(This post was edited by Lacrimae Rerum on Aug 16 2012, 3:59pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 16 2012, 4:53pm

Post #129 of 162 (2837 views)
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What about the report of Azog being changed to Yazneg? [In reply to] Can't Post

There seems to be outdated information in Azog's description. According to John Rawls' listing at Kathryn Rawlings & Associates, the character that he is playing is no longer known as Azog, but as Yazneg--a name that has been trademarked by The Saul Zaentz Company. This argues against a resurrected Azog.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 16 2012, 4:55pm

Post #130 of 162 (2812 views)
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But I thought Conan Stevens was playing Azog... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is he confirmed as Bolg now? That would make me feel a lot better about Bolg's role.


(This post was edited by Shagrat on Aug 16 2012, 4:57pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 16 2012, 4:56pm

Post #131 of 162 (2823 views)
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There's still room for Azog [In reply to] Can't Post

No need to believe that Yazneg is replacing Azog.


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 16 2012, 4:57pm

Post #132 of 162 (2775 views)
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He's playing Bolg / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 16 2012, 4:58pm

Post #133 of 162 (2807 views)
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Your information is antiquated... [In reply to] Can't Post

Conan Stevens is portraying Bolg of the North. John Rawls was going to be Azog, but is now Yazneg. Azog does not seem to be appearing (unless it is in flashback in a voice-less CGI role).


Quote
No need to believe that Yazneg is replacing Azog.



Well, now we have no current cast member who is to play Azog. That is one indication that he may be written out of the film(s).

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 16 2012, 5:02pm)


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 16 2012, 5:05pm

Post #134 of 162 (2773 views)
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This is great [In reply to] Can't Post

It's obvious now that Azog or no Azog Bolg won't get the short end of the stick if he's being played by the man mountain Conan Stevens, who would seem to have a big role given that he was announced in the main casting.


dave_lf
Gondor

Aug 16 2012, 5:09pm

Post #135 of 162 (2790 views)
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Marketing inertia [In reply to] Can't Post

The name Azog appeared in the trading card list, the first action figure list, and now this one too--not to mention the original casting reports. It seems pretty unlikely that the character has been eliminated completely. More likely they've just moved Rawls to a different role.

Edit: Actually Azog does not appear in the original action figure list (but neither do Bolg, Fimbul, or Grinnah, so the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence). So that leaves this (questionable) source and the tabletop card game, which will certainly be expanded to include characters that don't make the films. So I take back the above.


(This post was edited by dave_lf on Aug 16 2012, 5:13pm)


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 16 2012, 5:12pm

Post #136 of 162 (2773 views)
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Or there could be no one playing Azog [In reply to] Can't Post

In the same way that no one is playing Sauron.

Or they could just have moved roles.

LR


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 16 2012, 5:18pm

Post #137 of 162 (2751 views)
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Yes. Azog could be a completely CGI creation [In reply to] Can't Post

Especially if he has no dialogue. A decision may have been made to keep Azog in flashback only.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


DarkJackal
Rohan


Aug 16 2012, 5:22pm

Post #138 of 162 (2740 views)
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Can any good come of all this confusion? [In reply to] Can't Post

Odd how in the case of Azog each new bit of information further clouds the waters. One almost thinks this invented plot is so complex they can't keep track of it themselves.

Whatever, as long as I get an Orc/Dwarf vendetta that lasts from one generation to another I suppose I will be satisfied. Unimpressed


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 16 2012, 5:26pm

Post #139 of 162 (2735 views)
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Are you sure? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm certain Azog was in the original figure list, while Bolg was in a two pack with Gandalf. Also remember Grinnah being there.


Carne
Tol Eressea

Aug 16 2012, 5:30pm

Post #140 of 162 (2675 views)
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I remember this as well. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 16 2012, 5:31pm

Post #141 of 162 (2729 views)
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Maybe this is the reason for film 3 ;-) / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Aug 16 2012, 5:33pm

Post #142 of 162 (2696 views)
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What do you mean? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 16 2012, 5:37pm

Post #143 of 162 (2704 views)
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Ha I'm not entirely sure it is reasonable to label any plot [In reply to] Can't Post

Over complicated simply because it cannot be deduced from a cast list and leaked toy figures range!

LR


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Aug 16 2012, 5:42pm

Post #144 of 162 (2707 views)
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I do agree... [In reply to] Can't Post

But Bolg at Dol Guldur seems to be an odd coincidence. What's a prince orc doing turturing people under Sauron's command? Unless, maybe Bolg becomes Thrain's torturer through want of revenge.

It's mainly the rumoured ones. Estel, Gimli, Arwen, Sam etc. Could it not be possible that maybe these people were either busy at the time, or simply weren't of enough interest to warrant being in the movie? Of all the inhabitants of Middle-earth we keep seeing the same ones over and over... The more cameos there are the more Middle-earth appears to shrink in size and diversity.


(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Aug 16 2012, 5:50pm)


Carne
Tol Eressea

Aug 16 2012, 5:44pm

Post #145 of 162 (3926 views)
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"Yazneg is the character John Rawls is now playing in the hobbit films. He is no longer playing Azog. " [In reply to] Can't Post

That's the mail I got from his agent.


dave_lf
Gondor

Aug 16 2012, 5:50pm

Post #146 of 162 (2732 views)
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I thought so too [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah that's what I thought; but when I looked up the link, there was no mention of any of them (just "a key villian" and "a key hero"). Maybe the article has been edited?

http://geek-news.mtv.com/...-the-hobbit-figures/


Carne
Tol Eressea

Aug 16 2012, 5:55pm

Post #147 of 162 (2667 views)
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Yea, there's a list with the names out there [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems like they edited them out of that list.


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Aug 16 2012, 5:55pm

Post #148 of 162 (2685 views)
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Have there been any credible reports [In reply to] Can't Post

Of those - Sam etc. Or indeed any reports at all?

But as for Bolg, as I posted earlier I think the Sauron's link to the Misty Moutnain Orcs will be overt so I suspect it won't be portrayed as a coincidence.

It may even be that Bolg leads the orcs who pursued Thrain into Mirkwood at his capture - since he started out in Ered Luin, he would presumably have had to cross the Misty Mountains somewhere.

"Little is known of what happened to him afterwards. It would now seem that as soon as he was abroad with few companions he was hunted by the emissaries of Sauron. Wolves pursued him, Orcs waylaid him, evil birds shadowed his path, and the more he strove to go north the more misfortunes opposed him. There came a dark night when he and his companions were wandering in the land beyond Anduin, and they were driven by a black rain to take shelter under the eaves of Mirkwood."

If at this point if Azog was still dead/ wounded/ believed to be dead then Bolg would still be after a bit of vengance. Pursuing him to Dol Guldur, he would have a pretty good reason to stay on and be part of Thrain's torture.

LR

LR


(This post was edited by Lacrimae Rerum on Aug 16 2012, 6:03pm)


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Aug 16 2012, 6:14pm

Post #149 of 162 (2668 views)
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That sounds fair... [In reply to] Can't Post

I realise there's no solid evidence for the other cameos. But I'm just saying, it's a concern and a possibility, if PJ goes over-the top.

I'm also not against this Bolg change. The possibility of zombie Azog is a little worrying. And the fact the Bolg's character description fails to mention that he became king of the Moria orcs after his father's death seems odd. But, maybe PJ's orcs simply don't have a monarchy system. Which, I guess is fine.


DarkJackal
Rohan


Aug 16 2012, 6:25pm

Post #150 of 162 (2673 views)
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Compared to the original book, it has become so. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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