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Hanzkaz
Rohan
Aug 16 2012, 3:41pm
Post #126 of 162
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- as though the Battle of Five Armies is the culmination of both the Dol Guldur and Dragon storylines.
So -
Hobbit Film 1 : Getting There
Hobbit Film 2 : Taking Down The Main Bad Guys
Hobbit Film 3 : Unfinished Business
I suspect Azog gets killed (again?) at Dol Guldur in the second movie, then Bolg decides to get payback in the third.
(I'm thinking that in the original version of story, an audience might be a bit sympathetic for Bolg. I mean, the Dwarves killed his Dad all those years ago, back when he was just a little Orcling....)
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Macfeast
Rohan
Aug 16 2012, 3:42pm
Post #127 of 162
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Gandalf: "On his way Gandalf finds indication that the world could be haunted by an ancient evil. To get to the truth of the matter, Gandalf has to leave his companions on their own devices - his own path leads him into the darkest corners of Middle-earth, where he found his worst suspicions confirmed." So the strike against Dol Guldur is not something the White Council had planned beforehand, but something Gandalf finds necessary when the Quest for Erebor is already underway? Will he still visit Dol Guldur beforehand and retrieve Thráin's map and key, or will it all be combined into one single visit?
Bofur: "The sympathetic Bofur has the terrible habit to utter self-evident things." He's going to utter the next "they're taking the Hobbits to Isengard".
Thranduil: "An ancient, bitter feud led to the situation that he basically rejects all dwarves - and especially a certain dwarf, namely Thorin Oakenshield." Hmm. An animosity towards the dwarves is understandable, but why Thorin especially? Sounds more personal than simply a rejection of the Longbeard's royal line.
Azog: "It was said that Azog the Desecrator fell many years ago in the great battle between the Orcs and the Dwarves. But now he appears again at the top of a deadly horde of killer orcs." A rather literal application of Sauron's title as the Necromancer, it would seem. Either that, or Dáin's decapitation didn't turn out quite as...decapitating.
Bolg: This husky Orc fears nothing and nobody - until he suddenly meets an unexpected opponent. This unexpected opponent being Gandalf seems likely.
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens
Aug 16 2012, 3:56pm
Post #128 of 162
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Well the text does support links between Sauron and the Orcs
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I think there are perfectly good readings of the appendices which suggest links between Sauron and the Orcs of Azog/ Bolg. Now to what extent Sauron exerted control is up to interpretation but there are clues to support the idea.
Firstly the concrete:
"C2480. Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains so as to bar all the passes into Eriador. Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures."
ROTK
So we can be sure that Moria at this time an for a period afterwards was peopled with Sauron's creatures. This could well have included Azog himself or it is possible that Azog took over leadership. Here we run into the question of how long Orcs live - to which we have no consistent answer but Bolg lived for 151 years at the least, so Azog may well have been a creature of Sauron to some extent.
As a secondary point we may wonder why the Orcs should populated strongholds in order to bar all passage across the mountains if not influenced by some wider strategy. It is certainly not an obvious tactic for a series of unco-ordinated robber bands.
We have other suggestions in support of this link:
"The power of Sauron, servant of Morgoth, was then again growing in the world, though the Shadow in the Forest that looked towards Moria was not yet known for what it was. All evil things were stirring."
ROTK
And
"Orcs again multiply in secret and occupy many deep places (especially those anciently made by the Dwarves) in the Misty Mountains. They do this so stealthily that none are aware of it, until they have great forces hidden and are ready to bar all the passes from Eriador into Anduin's vales, according to the plan of their master in Dol Guldur. Orcs and Trolls occupy parts of the now empty Mines of Moria."
The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12.
We also have a belief on the part of the Dwarves that the misfortunes of Thorin's family, which were in no small part the doing of the Orcs in question were ultimately caused by Sauron.
"None the less it may well be, as the Dwarves now believe, that Sauron by his arts had discovered who had this Ring, the last to remain free, and that the singular misfortunes of the heirs of Durin were largely due to his malice."
ROTK
Now I do not seek to make the case that there is only one possible reading or that it needs to be all or nothing. But I do think that, given no evidence to the contrary, it is not an illegitimate view to hold that Sauron did exert at least some control over the Orcs in the Misty Mountains.
LR
(This post was edited by Lacrimae Rerum on Aug 16 2012, 3:59pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 16 2012, 4:53pm
Post #129 of 162
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What about the report of Azog being changed to Yazneg?
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There seems to be outdated information in Azog's description. According to John Rawls' listing at Kathryn Rawlings & Associates, the character that he is playing is no longer known as Azog, but as Yazneg--a name that has been trademarked by The Saul Zaentz Company. This argues against a resurrected Azog.
"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn
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Shagrat
Gondor
Aug 16 2012, 4:55pm
Post #130 of 162
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But I thought Conan Stevens was playing Azog...
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Is he confirmed as Bolg now? That would make me feel a lot better about Bolg's role.
(This post was edited by Shagrat on Aug 16 2012, 4:57pm)
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DanielLB
Immortal
Aug 16 2012, 4:56pm
Post #131 of 162
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No need to believe that Yazneg is replacing Azog.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 16 2012, 4:58pm
Post #133 of 162
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Your information is antiquated...
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Conan Stevens is portraying Bolg of the North. John Rawls was going to be Azog, but is now Yazneg. Azog does not seem to be appearing (unless it is in flashback in a voice-less CGI role).
No need to believe that Yazneg is replacing Azog.
Well, now we have no current cast member who is to play Azog. That is one indication that he may be written out of the film(s).
"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 16 2012, 5:02pm)
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Shagrat
Gondor
Aug 16 2012, 5:05pm
Post #134 of 162
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It's obvious now that Azog or no Azog Bolg won't get the short end of the stick if he's being played by the man mountain Conan Stevens, who would seem to have a big role given that he was announced in the main casting.
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dave_lf
Gondor
Aug 16 2012, 5:09pm
Post #135 of 162
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The name Azog appeared in the trading card list, the first action figure list, and now this one too--not to mention the original casting reports. It seems pretty unlikely that the character has been eliminated completely. More likely they've just moved Rawls to a different role.
Edit: Actually Azog does not appear in the original action figure list (but neither do Bolg, Fimbul, or Grinnah, so the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence). So that leaves this (questionable) source and the tabletop card game, which will certainly be expanded to include characters that don't make the films. So I take back the above.
(This post was edited by dave_lf on Aug 16 2012, 5:13pm)
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens
Aug 16 2012, 5:12pm
Post #136 of 162
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Or there could be no one playing Azog
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In the same way that no one is playing Sauron.
Or they could just have moved roles.
LR
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 16 2012, 5:18pm
Post #137 of 162
(2826 views)
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Yes. Azog could be a completely CGI creation
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Especially if he has no dialogue. A decision may have been made to keep Azog in flashback only.
"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn
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DarkJackal
Rohan
Aug 16 2012, 5:22pm
Post #138 of 162
(2815 views)
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Can any good come of all this confusion?
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Odd how in the case of Azog each new bit of information further clouds the waters. One almost thinks this invented plot is so complex they can't keep track of it themselves.
Whatever, as long as I get an Orc/Dwarf vendetta that lasts from one generation to another I suppose I will be satisfied. 
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Shagrat
Gondor
Aug 16 2012, 5:26pm
Post #139 of 162
(2810 views)
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I'm certain Azog was in the original figure list, while Bolg was in a two pack with Gandalf. Also remember Grinnah being there.
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Carne
Tol Eressea
Aug 16 2012, 5:30pm
Post #140 of 162
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DanielLB
Immortal
Aug 16 2012, 5:31pm
Post #141 of 162
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Maybe this is the reason for film 3 ;-) /
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens
Aug 16 2012, 5:37pm
Post #143 of 162
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Ha I'm not entirely sure it is reasonable to label any plot
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Over complicated simply because it cannot be deduced from a cast list and leaked toy figures range!
LR
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Aug 16 2012, 5:42pm
Post #144 of 162
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But Bolg at Dol Guldur seems to be an odd coincidence. What's a prince orc doing turturing people under Sauron's command? Unless, maybe Bolg becomes Thrain's torturer through want of revenge.
It's mainly the rumoured ones. Estel, Gimli, Arwen, Sam etc. Could it not be possible that maybe these people were either busy at the time, or simply weren't of enough interest to warrant being in the movie? Of all the inhabitants of Middle-earth we keep seeing the same ones over and over... The more cameos there are the more Middle-earth appears to shrink in size and diversity.
(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Aug 16 2012, 5:50pm)
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Carne
Tol Eressea
Aug 16 2012, 5:44pm
Post #145 of 162
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"Yazneg is the character John Rawls is now playing in the hobbit films. He is no longer playing Azog. "
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That's the mail I got from his agent.
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Carne
Tol Eressea
Aug 16 2012, 5:55pm
Post #147 of 162
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Yea, there's a list with the names out there
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Seems like they edited them out of that list.
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens
Aug 16 2012, 5:55pm
Post #148 of 162
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Have there been any credible reports
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Of those - Sam etc. Or indeed any reports at all?
But as for Bolg, as I posted earlier I think the Sauron's link to the Misty Moutnain Orcs will be overt so I suspect it won't be portrayed as a coincidence.
It may even be that Bolg leads the orcs who pursued Thrain into Mirkwood at his capture - since he started out in Ered Luin, he would presumably have had to cross the Misty Mountains somewhere.
"Little is known of what happened to him afterwards. It would now seem that as soon as he was abroad with few companions he was hunted by the emissaries of Sauron. Wolves pursued him, Orcs waylaid him, evil birds shadowed his path, and the more he strove to go north the more misfortunes opposed him. There came a dark night when he and his companions were wandering in the land beyond Anduin, and they were driven by a black rain to take shelter under the eaves of Mirkwood."
If at this point if Azog was still dead/ wounded/ believed to be dead then Bolg would still be after a bit of vengance. Pursuing him to Dol Guldur, he would have a pretty good reason to stay on and be part of Thrain's torture.
LR
LR
(This post was edited by Lacrimae Rerum on Aug 16 2012, 6:03pm)
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Aug 16 2012, 6:14pm
Post #149 of 162
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I realise there's no solid evidence for the other cameos. But I'm just saying, it's a concern and a possibility, if PJ goes over-the top.
I'm also not against this Bolg change. The possibility of zombie Azog is a little worrying. And the fact the Bolg's character description fails to mention that he became king of the Moria orcs after his father's death seems odd. But, maybe PJ's orcs simply don't have a monarchy system. Which, I guess is fine.
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DarkJackal
Rohan
Aug 16 2012, 6:25pm
Post #150 of 162
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Compared to the original book, it has become so. //
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