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Sam20
Menegroth
Aug 9 2012, 10:31pm
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The Mithril coat
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I never really take much consideration of this detail in The Hobbit till now: the origin of the Mithril coat. It is said in the book that the Mithril coat belonged to a 'young elvish prince'. I wonder now who might that be and how has it found it's way to the Dwarf hoard? Obviously there has been a couple young princes of old especially of elvish kind in the first ages of Middle-Earth and the coat is probably a gift that was given to the Dwarf-lords but still not much is said here about this little mystery (at least to me) in the book. Is there any existing wirtting of Tolkien about this in particular?
Any thought?
(This post was edited by sam90 on Aug 9 2012, 10:33pm)
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Harold.of.Whoa
Ossiriand
Aug 10 2012, 2:13am
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...that in "The Black Opens," the Mouth of Sauron refers to it as a "Dwarf-coat." Assuming that he has any skill at all identifying its origins, that implies that the MoS (or his master) thinks it be of Dwarf make, and has no further knowledge of its history. I imagine that it was first a gift from some Dwarf-lord to the court of the unnamed prince, and at some later time it was given back, perhaps in a spirit of good will, or perhaps not.
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PhantomS
Nargothrond
Aug 10 2012, 3:26am
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it is hinted that Erebor (or rather Khazad-dum) and Lothlorien were once quite friendly, so it might have been a gift for a prince of Amroth's lineage that never got delivered for some reason or other. Another theory is that it was made for Elrond's son (technically he's a royal) but when he had twins they changed their mind since making two coats was out of the question.
Why the Dwarves would give something so precious to a child that would no doubt grow out of it is beyond me, but perhaps it was meant as armor for children, given back when they no longer fit in it, like a ceremonial token. It seems to have been forgotten, since even Aragorn is surprised it exists; and he knows of Bilbo's story.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Aug 10 2012, 7:57am
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...postulated by Reverend, a much-beloved TORn poster who died suddenly in 2003. He thinks it might have been for Earendil.
Join us NOW in the Reading Room for detailed discussions of The Hobbit, July 9-Nov. 18!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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ElendilTheShort
Mithlond
Aug 10 2012, 8:11am
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I always liked that theory but never realised it had been written by another.
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In the Fall of Gondolin the text that describes Maeglins blade being turned by Earendils coat of mail automatically makes that mithril coat of the Bagginses spring to mind for me.
The argument is that it is too remote an item to be Under the Lonely Mountain and too coincidental for both swords and armour of Gondolin to be chanced upon by the same bunch of dwarves and their burrahobbit.
Dwarf coat would only refer to it being made by a dwarf, just as Narsil was made by a dwarf but was probably made for Elves and is only noted as being wielded by men.
(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Aug 10 2012, 8:13am)
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Aug 10 2012, 4:57pm
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- it says the coat 'was made for' a young Elven prince. We're told of much armour and spears made for King Bladorthin, but they were never despatched because the king didn't pay up.
I'd always supposed the elf-prince's armour had been part of that consignment.
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Sam20
Menegroth
Aug 10 2012, 6:51pm
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Thanks for your answers, well I see that there is no 'clear' answer given by Tolkien without a doubt to which 'young elvish prince' this Mithril coat was to be prepared for. But interesting theories that some have posted here.
@goerdie You're right it is rather that 'it was made for', my bad.
(This post was edited by sam90 on Aug 10 2012, 6:53pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Aug 10 2012, 8:10pm
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Intended for a Wood-elf prince?
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Since the Wood-elves of Mirkwood were close neighbors of the Dwarves of Erebor, it is reasonable to suggest that the coat may have been commissioned for a younger brother or cousin of Legolas. Unfortunately, the Dragon attacked before delivery could be made. It couldn't have been intended for Legolas, himself, unless it was made centuries earlier; he would have been full-grown when Smaug attacked Lonely Mountain.
"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 10 2012, 8:12pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
Aug 10 2012, 8:23pm
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That thread offers some alternate theories, as well as
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a major problem with Reverend's theory -- where did they get mithril in Gondolin? On the other hand, I find it quite plausible that Tolkien borrowed the idea of mail for an elven prince from his other writings, without worrying about whether it made sense for Earendil's mail to be made out of mithril. This is especially true since mithril didn't come up until LotR. So when The Hobbit was written it might not have been made out of mithril. In other words, it could have been Earendil's mail in The Hobbit, and the mail of someone else entirely in LotR.
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Aug 10 2012, 9:27pm
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the word mithril appears in TH.
'With that he put on Bilbo a small coat of mail, wrought for some young elf-prince long ago. It was of silver-steel, which the elves call mithril, and with it went a belt of pearls and crystals.'
(Fire and Water)
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Sam20
Menegroth
Aug 10 2012, 10:51pm
Post #11 of 25
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I am a bit more sceptical about The Legolas' theory if we can call it this way though it make sense for Mirkwood is close to Erebor but maybe Legolas would have known that a mithril coat was to be made for him or at least the matter could have been known in the realm and so reach Legolas' ears especially if there was a feud with the Dwarves about it. Therefore if Legolas do know something about (but it doesn't mean that's the case though) the coat that Frodo wear under his shirt might have bring memory of this. Thats all hypothetical and pure speculation but who knows?
(This post was edited by sam90 on Aug 10 2012, 10:57pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
Aug 11 2012, 12:22am
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I'm pretty sure that was a post-LotR edit.//
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imin
Doriath
Aug 11 2012, 1:18am
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You have a 1938 edition of the hobbit!
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very jealous over here, haha!
One day i would love to get a first imp, first edition 1937 (UK edition). Need a spare few thousand first i imagine. As they say look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Aug 11 2012, 8:38am
Post #15 of 25
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- quite right; 'Mithril' doesn't appear in the first edition, nor the second. According to Hammond, 'mithril' first appears in that quote in the revised Ballantine paperback of 1966. (Hammond A3g)
Incidentally, the first Ballantine edition featured a cover illustration by Barbara Remington of a fantastic landscape with emus, and a grinning lion; and trees with bulbous fruit. Tolkien wrote: 'I feel I'm trapped in a mad-house'. The revised edition had the lion removed; but the emus and bulbous fruit remained.
Oh, another thing - in the first Ballantine edition of FotR, the Ring-verse is printed upside-down! 'I cannot read the fiery letters' said frodo'.
'I'm not surprised!' wrote Tolkien.
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Aug 11 2012, 8:46am
Post #16 of 25
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- put it down to laziness on my part. I ought to have gone upstairs and gotten one of my pre-LotR copies of TH, but instead picked up one of the copies within reach. Ironically, if I'd selected the 1960s Houghton Mifflin hardback I'd have gotten the right answer! but my hand fell instead on the UK 50th Anniversary edition (the one with Roger Garland's splendid depiction of Smaug) .
Too many books...
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Aug 11 2012, 8:55am
Post #17 of 25
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Interestingly enough, that quote appears on p.246 in the later printings of the UK 1st edition, despite the reduction in page size which came about in the 3rd printing of 1942. But it appears on p.251 in the 1951 Second edition. Not because of paper size - can anyone tell me why there's a difference of precisely five pages between the first and second editions?
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Aug 11 2012, 9:53am
Post #18 of 25
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BTW I've been meaning to ask -
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- does your copy of the 1938 Hobbit have a bowing hobbit on the title page, or a flute-player? This might sound a strange question, but for the benefit of readers who aren't biblionuts ---- that's the difference between a 1st printing and a later one. But at any rate - AFAIK there were only 5,000 copies of the whole first edition, so well done on getting a copy.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Aug 11 2012, 12:45pm
Post #20 of 25
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It is doubtful that the mithril shirt could have been made for Legolas himself...
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The shirt was sized for an Elf-child and Legolas would have been full-grown when Smaug attacked Erebor. Actually, given the Elvenking's distrust of Dwarves, it is far more likely that the shirt was made for an Elf-child of Lorien, Rivendell or the Havens.
"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Aug 11 2012, 5:48pm
Post #21 of 25
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IIRC it was in 1947 that JRR sent Allen & Unwin some proposed changes to that chapter. he weren't half surprised to see it in print in 1951!
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Curious
Gondolin
Aug 11 2012, 10:47pm
Post #22 of 25
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I remember that Remington cover well.
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However, my original paperbacks fell apart after many years of heavy use.
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Yngwulff
Mithlond
Aug 11 2012, 11:58pm
Post #23 of 25
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- it says the coat 'was made for' a young Elven prince. We're told of much armour and spears made for King Bladorthin, but they were never despatched because the king didn't pay up.
I'd always supposed the elf-prince's armour had been part of that consignment.
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Thats the way I interpereted it as well too.
Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!
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PhantomS
Nargothrond
Aug 12 2012, 6:19am
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Gloin seems to tell Frodo that his people have forgotten a lot of things about metalwork and are now stone carvers; a work like the mithril coat doesn't seem like what the Dwarves of Frodo's time could make, compared to relatively simple mithril gates at Minas Tirith. It's tons more intricate and would require a master to make- something perhaps absent from Erebor at least in Frodo's time.
In LoTR the coat is mentioned in Moria, the ultimate mine for mithril-a hint that perhaps it was made there or even with partnership with the Elves of Eregion. I mean, there had to be a model for the coat.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Aug 12 2012, 9:21pm
Post #25 of 25
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Part of Bladorthin's shipment?
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- it says the coat 'was made for' a young Elven prince. We're told of much armour and spears made for King Bladorthin, but they were never despatched because the king didn't pay up.
I'd always supposed the elf-prince's armour had been part of that consignment. That is as good a theory as any. And probably better than most.
"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn
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