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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Fall of the Necromancer
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Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Jul 7 2012, 6:04pm

Post #1 of 65 (2411 views)
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The Fall of the Necromancer Can't Post

Just stumbled upon an interesting idea on a thread from another website. Wouldn't it be interesting to see the protagonists fight the Necromancer/Ringwraiths/Others in a more subtle fashion? Rather than fireballs or other such "magic" being thrown around (which would, of course, look atrocious and would not be very lore-accurate), what if the good guys fought a battle of wills against the enemy in a manner similar to the Gandalf/Saruman duel in The Two Towers? (i.e. Gandalf freeing Theoden). The original quote states that the Council "Put forth their might". Given that the Council consists of some of the greatest thinkers in Middle-Earth, who would (naturally) be more suited to this kind of battle, wouldn't this be the more logical and interesting approach?

"A Wizard is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early: he arrives precisely when he means to!"-Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 7 2012, 6:19pm

Post #2 of 65 (979 views)
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I can't imagine Jackson being quite that subtle... [In reply to] Can't Post

And, honestly, my reading of Gandalf's account at the Council of Elrond suggests that the encounter was at least a bit more physical. Also, I'm not sure how your idea would play on screen.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


Arandir
Gondor


Jul 7 2012, 6:22pm

Post #3 of 65 (875 views)
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Agree completely // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Jul 7 2012, 6:32pm

Post #4 of 65 (938 views)
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That is also my main concern [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure I can imagine that level of sublety in the film either, just liked the idea. The idea suggested by the poster was along these lines: Galadriel using her "inner strength" against the enemy (Like the scene in FOTR), and in return seeing a vision of Lothlorien fading before her eyes..etc. A little too much to hope for, I know.
However, I just can't see Galadriel, Saruman or Radagast fighting in another way (we know that Gandalf and Elrond are fine hand-to-hand because we've seen them fight), but Galadriel I'm not sure about. It would look stupid if Saruman and Radagast were just hitting people with their staves (Radagast of course might call upon his animal-friends). I imagine that the Council would have an army of elves behind them versus the Necromancer's orcs, but it seems to me that this is the best possible scenario within (The Third Age era at least) to convey such individual power. I don't think there is another scenario with The Hobbit or LOTR where so many great powers clash.

I'm not suggesting for any minute that we would see very much of it, but PJ has done it once before, so it is a possiblity.

"A Wizard is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early: he arrives precisely when he means to!"-Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring.

(This post was edited by Radagast-Aiwendil on Jul 7 2012, 6:36pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 7 2012, 6:41pm

Post #5 of 65 (903 views)
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I don't see the members of the Council engaging in hand-to-hand combat... [In reply to] Can't Post

However, the context in which Gandalf uses the phrase, 'the devices of Saruman' during the Council of Elrond seems to indicate weapons rather than strategies and plans. I do expect the White Council to bring some support forces into play to counter Dol Guldur's defenders: Lorien Elves, Rivendell Elves, possibly some Rangers from the North.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Jul 7 2012, 6:48pm

Post #6 of 65 (825 views)
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I agree and disagree...lol [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you in terms of the "devices of Saruman" being weapons, as I remember Gandalf saying that Saruman might have "found new weapons to drive back The Nine". However I disagree because I remember Gandalf (also) saying in The Two Towers film that "King Theoden is now very weak. It's a device of Saruman's". I use this as an example as it is the only time that Gandalf refers to the devices of Saruman in the films, in that case they were magical.
That said, it is very possible that a mixture of both may be used, as the two perceptions could work well in unison.....though I do doubt PJ's level of sublety....Unsure

"A Wizard is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early: he arrives precisely when he means to!"-Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring.


Felagund
Lorien


Jul 7 2012, 6:51pm

Post #7 of 65 (813 views)
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songs of power etc [In reply to] Can't Post

I like the idea of something more subtle too. The 'songs of power' contest between Sauron and Finrod Felagund is an example of a lore face-off - certainly more subtle than fireballs and lightning.

Other, more generic contests of will took place via palantķri, eg. Denethor vs Sauron and Aragorn vs Sauron. From memory, I think Gandalf throws a bit of will-power into the fray when Frodo nearly gets spotted by Sauron on Amon Hen.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 7 2012, 6:52pm

Post #8 of 65 (842 views)
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Different usages in different sentences... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't mean to imply that the term 'devices' is used exclusively to mean 'weapons' throughout the entire text of the novel. That would be silly.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2012, 6:57pm

Post #9 of 65 (828 views)
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well i posted this pic else where but I think [In reply to] Can't Post



its an indication that they will find DolGuldur abandoned or at least Gandalf will be there alone during the present time, since he has Glamdring and I think that it has been confirmed in the troll horde... I could be wrong though Smile


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Jul 7 2012, 7:03pm

Post #10 of 65 (798 views)
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I like this idea [In reply to] Can't Post

I also wonder if it might be interesting to have the "songs of power" unleashed by Saruman, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, etc., cause Sauron to shape-shift as an attempt to break free, as he did in his struggles with Beren and Luthien...He could then affect his escape after transforming himself into a wispy spirit (or some horrid flying beast) and make his way to Mordor...

This could certainly look a bit silly on screen, if done wrong. But there are interesting ways of pulling it off. Perhaps they could "back up" the singing with the threat of physical assault from an elvish army?


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Jul 7 2012, 7:08pm

Post #11 of 65 (775 views)
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In reply to Felagund [In reply to] Can't Post

On a related note, your post gave me an interesting thought, as you were talking about the palantiri. Wouldn't it be interesting if, at the end of film two, we see a short scene around the time when the main story ends (i.e. Bilbo finishing the telling of the story to Frodo), in which we see Saruman gazing into the palantir, and see his thoughts approaching Mordor through the stone....then suddenly the Eye of Sauron appears in the stone as we see in RotK, staring back at Saruman, who perhaps tries to outstare it and is seduced by the Dark Lord. It would help PJ to link The Hobbit to The Fellowship of the Ring.
Just a thought.

"A Wizard is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early: he arrives precisely when he means to!"-Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring.

(This post was edited by Radagast-Aiwendil on Jul 7 2012, 7:09pm)


Felagund
Lorien


Jul 7 2012, 7:08pm

Post #12 of 65 (816 views)
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the devices of Saruman [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always imagined the 'devices of Saruman' being mechanical in nature - siege engines or suchlike, as you'd expect from a Maia of Aulė!

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Felagund
Lorien


Jul 7 2012, 7:12pm

Post #13 of 65 (799 views)
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brilliant idea! [In reply to] Can't Post

Love it! More or less canonical, subtle and allowing PJ to indulge in special effects (a little).

It'd also help dispel any confusion the audience might have over the outcome of the assault on Dol Guldur - Sauron in tactical retreat, undiminished in power and malice.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 7 2012, 7:12pm

Post #14 of 65 (790 views)
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Mechanical and/or magical devices [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I've always imagined the 'devices of Saruman' being mechanical in nature - siege engines or suchlike, as you'd expect from a Maia of Aulė!



That would certainly play into Treebeard's description of Saruman and how his mind works. Wheels and cogs indeed!

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2012, 7:16pm

Post #15 of 65 (783 views)
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nice idea but... [In reply to] Can't Post

its too obvious. It needs to be very subtle so as not to give away anything for those who haven't see Saruman's betrayal in FOTR yet... but if it could be done so as not to give anything away (yeah yeah I know everyone has seen LOTR in some peoples minds) for those who have yet to see the LOTR trilogy

I had the same exact idea months ago in a post somewhere on here Wink


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Jul 7 2012, 7:17pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 7 2012, 7:18pm

Post #16 of 65 (817 views)
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The Palantir of Orthanc [In reply to] Can't Post

I've played around with the same notion and it would work as long as Saruman doesn't become Sauron's thrall too soon. Saruman shouldn't turn entirely against the Council until after the attack on Dol Guldur. Maybe after the Necromancer departs Mirkwood, the wizard attempts to locate him using the seeing stone. He suceeds, but far too well.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2012, 7:20pm

Post #17 of 65 (814 views)
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but didn't treebeard say "of late" [In reply to] Can't Post

when referring to Saruman and having a mind of metal? and claiming that he used to walk in his woods as well, So with the Hobbit being before all that I'm not sure about that idea. I think devices means multiple things strategies being among those things.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 7 2012, 7:23pm

Post #18 of 65 (761 views)
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Considering the way that Treebeard's mind works... [In reply to] Can't Post

..."of late" could have been two hundred years past or more!

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Jul 7 2012, 7:23pm

Post #19 of 65 (818 views)
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Ok I resign myself to this idea [In reply to] Can't Post

Some excellent points have been made, and I agree that there is more evidence to support the "mechanical devices".
However, I still feel that magic needs to be involved to a least a noticable degree, something which requires sublety to pull off effectively. Whilst I believe that Saruman will be at the forefront of the victory as "it was by his devices that we were able to drive he (Sauron) from Dol Guldur" (although one wonders given that Christopher Lee only shot four days of work for the films), it will be necessary to show other council members using their powers, and no doubt PJ will want to emphasise Gandalf's involvement in this battle.
I know that PJ is not the best at this sort of thing, but I think that these scenes have the potential to be cringeworthy if there is there is not at least a degree of sublety involved. (That said, they are also the scenes that I am most looking forward to).

"A Wizard is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early: he arrives precisely when he means to!"-Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring.


Yngwulff
Gondor


Jul 7 2012, 10:52pm

Post #20 of 65 (696 views)
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Some sort of device [In reply to] Can't Post

1 - it is what is said/inferred by Tolkien... like the "gunpowder" used at Helms Deep or some sort of metal mechanical contraption.

2 - I don't think PJ could resist to do such a thing. What he comes up with is open to debate, as I have no clue.


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Jul 7 2012, 11:40pm

Post #21 of 65 (681 views)
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There is no real evidence either way [In reply to] Can't Post

We do not know if Tolkien meant stratagems, spells or mechanical devices. No reason to resign yourself to anything.

This one is 100% open to PJ's interpretation. I would like to see him go the "song of power" route, though I doubt that will happen.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 8 2012, 3:39am

Post #22 of 65 (664 views)
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The full passage may bestow enlightenment as to Tolkien's intent. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
We do not know if Tolkien meant stratagems, spells or mechanical devices. No reason to resign yourself to anything.

This one is 100% open to PJ's interpretation. I would like to see him go the "song of power" route, though I doubt that will happen.



It helps to have the context of the full paragraph in question (boldface mine):


Quote

'And that message brought me hope. For Saruman the White is the greatest of my order. Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends. But Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forstall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur. It might be that he had found some weapons that would drive back the Nine.'



The suggestion is that Saruman had developed some sort of magical and/or physical devices that were used at Dol Guldur and that he might have created more such weapons with which to counter the Nine.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 8 2012, 3:41am)


artemy
Lorien


Jul 8 2012, 12:15pm

Post #23 of 65 (604 views)
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I hope it's more magical [In reply to] Can't Post

as I felt that we didn't see enough of Gandalf or Saruman's magical powers in the trilogy, and I also got the impression that after Saruman turned to the dark side as it were, he favoured industry rather than magic, so perhaps in The Hobbit he still relies on his magical power rather than machines.

~Beneath the sun, all things must wear to an end at last~


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jul 8 2012, 3:04pm

Post #24 of 65 (549 views)
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Even now, the word can be read as 'stratagem' as used in the passage [In reply to] Can't Post

Although the evidence seems to weigh against that usage. The Eldar might have been able to bring more magical might to bear than the Istari, who were forbidden by the Valar from matching Sauron power against power. The Three Rings did not powers to control or conquer, but they probably had defensive properties that were useful against the Necromancer and his minions.

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jul 8 2012, 3:55pm

Post #25 of 65 (533 views)
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I'm voting for strategies instead... [In reply to] Can't Post

and when they actually get to Dol Guldur it will be abandoned as he fled before them. I think there will be some confrontation at DolGuldur sure but I don't think it will be with the Necromancer. I think there might be some lesser minions there and from seeing the scene with Gandalf walking around DolGuldur apparently alone. So I'm thinking that is the route they are gonna take. WC shows up, Gandalf decides to go in alone first, finds out Necromancer has fled after being confronted by some lesser minions of Sauron. Not a huge battle like everyone wants but it has conflict and the Necromancer flees just like it was writtenWink

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