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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 2 2012, 11:40am
Post #1 of 68
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Why are there no females in The Hobbit?
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Tolkien was quite capable of incorporating romantic love interests with strong female characters in his stories, as we see in The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and Lord of the Rings. And the typical conclusion for a story like The Hobbit, as we see in The Valiant Little Tailor, would be for Bilbo to marry a princess, or perhaps a rich heiress. And many tales of this kind incorporate female villains, often witches or enchantresses.
But not only are female hobbits absent from The Hobbit, females of any kind are absent, unless we consider the Giant Spiders to be female. But although Ungoliant and Shelob are identified as female, the Giant Spiders are not.
I can think of two reasons for the lack of female characters. First, Tolkien invented the stories for his children, and had finished the earliest version by 1932. At that time he had a daughter, but she was born in 1929 and so probably was not the intended audience for the stories -- rather, they were written for his three older prepubescent sons.
Second, the story may well have been influenced by Tolkien's experiences in World War I, in an all-male army. The last chapters, in particular, tell a war story, and for Tolkien that meant a story about males at war.
Still, it is a distinct departure from convention for Tolkien to leave out any female whatsoever, good, bad, or indifferent. There is one throw-away line that I find intriguing, though. In the first chapter, Bilbo says about Gandalf: "'Not the Gandalf who was responsible for so many quiet lads and lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures? Anything from climbing trees to visiting elves--or sailing in ships, sailing to other shores!'"
I would have loved to have read stories of hobbit lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures. Maybe they were the hobbit sailors who sailed to other shores! Maybe the "remarkable" Belladona Took had an adventure before she settled down and had a son. Indeed, there is another line that hints as much: "Not that Belladonna Took had any adventures after she became Mrs. Bungo Baggins." Not after, but maybe before!
(This post was edited by Curious on Jul 2 2012, 11:47am)
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Jul 2 2012, 11:54am
Post #2 of 68
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I think you've missed the most obvious, and perhaps, the most important point.
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I don't particularly want a discussion on whether Tolkien was sexist or not - the subject gets on my nerves. Whether we like it or not, Tolkien's works were planned, written and edited in a time when females did not have the same equality as males. It's probably not surprising there were no females in The Hobbit. If one grows up in a society where females do not have important male-type roles, then I'm sure ones views will follow suit. It wasn't until the Representation of the People Acts of 1918 & 1928 until females could vote in the UK. Right in the time of The Hobbit.
I would have thought this, in addition to your two points, accurately explain why there is a lack of females.
I'm too lazy to re-write this passage from Tolkien Gateway:
For some reason, Dwarves wanted their women to be "protected" from other races and they usually kept them concealed inside their mountain halls. They seldom traveled in the outside world, only in great need, and when they did, they were dressed as men; with similar voice and appearance as male dwarves, even when they are rarely seen they are usually mistaken for a male.
While there are no dwarf women on the adventure, at least Tolkien had some internal logic/reasoning of why female dwarves didn't go on adventures. There not missing altogether, but safe in their halls of stone, very much how women were in early 20th century.
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titanium_hobbit
Nargothrond
Jul 2 2012, 12:22pm
Post #3 of 68
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I know there aren't any female main characters, but you're forgetting (though you do mention one) Belladonna Took/Baggins and Lobelia Sackville-Baggins! Also the various people of lake town- aren't the women and children put into boats in the market pool?
I don't think the Hobbit is 'lacking' in anyway because of it- I don't think Tolkien is making a chauvinist statement with the Hobbit. As clearly represented on this board, you don't have to identify with the 'girl characters' if you're a girl. I remember putting myself neatly in Bilbo's shoes (or, er, lack of shoes) when I read the book for the first time. (As I did later with other male characters in books)
Bilbo could also be argued to be filling in the female role- he cooks, cleans, has hysterics, (yay stereotype) but also mothers the group (barrels out of bond) the most cunning and relied on to do the dirty work by a group of men. Maybe through Bilbo Tolkien is making a feminist statement?
I don't think that's the case either. I think The Hobbit is a neutral tale on the gender-political line.
I think you hit the nail on the head as to why there is no romance in The Hobbit. To borrow a few lines from "The Princess Bride":
Westley: As you wish.
[Cut to them kissing]
The Grandson: [interrupting] Hold it, hold it. What is this? Are you trying to trick me? Where's the sports?
[suspiciously]
The Grandson: Is this a kissing book?
Grandpa: Wait, just wait.
The Grandson: Well, when does it get good?
Grandpa: Keep your shirt on, and let me read.
and
The Grandson: They're kissing again. Do we have to read the kissing parts?
I suppose Tolkien chose to avoid that with his own kids. :)
I do, however, wish there were more hobbit adventures to read about, and was very disappointed that there was little to no mention of Hobbits in the Silmarilion!
TH
Hobbit firster, Book firster.
Have you explored all of TORN's forums?
(This post was edited by titanium_hobbit on Jul 2 2012, 12:23pm)
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imin
Doriath
Jul 2 2012, 12:34pm
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I agree i think its gender neutral
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I think bilbo could easily be a male or female. Like you said he is fairly balanced with traits of men and women. I think its just a good childrens story that happened to not have any men in, but which doesnt have a very manly main character so women/girls are able to be in his shoes and imagine its them. There have been plenty of books which i have read where the characters are female but i can still identify with them. I think thats one of the great things about reading is the ability to do that is much easier in a book than film - at least for me anyway.
I think men are able to identify with Galadriel or Eowyn for example. I know i am.
For me its something thats so refreshing about the hobbit is there is no secret undertones or gender politics going on its just an adventure story with no romance which is suitable for boys and girls and as it turns out men and women as well.
Maybe i just see it as such a none problem because im a man though?
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titanium_hobbit
Nargothrond
Jul 2 2012, 2:14pm
Post #5 of 68
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I think one chapter (maybe 2) about a battle, which the protagonist is mostly conked out for, is perhaps not the best evidence that this is a war story.
Sure, LOTR is a War story, but I don't think you can class The Hobbit as such. It's about a band of 'brothers' as it were, which is a bit like a platoon of soldiers, but they aren't in a war, like the Fellowship is.
Good start to a topic though! sparking some good responses.
Hobbit firster, Book firster.
Have you explored all of TORN's forums?
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 2 2012, 2:22pm
Post #6 of 68
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It's significant because that is the chapter where the hero
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would normally marry or get engaged to the rich heiress/princess, but instead we get what I consider a prelude to the War of the Rings, a short war story. I agree that the majority of The Hobbit is not a war story, and that the ending is substantially different in tone from the rest of the book. But it happens exactly at the point where convention dictates the hero would be married. Even in LotR, Aragorn and Faramir and Sam get married or engaged or develop an understanding at the end, although Frodo, again unconventionally, does not. But in The Hobbit not even Bard or Beorn or one of the dwarves get married or engaged.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jul 2 2012, 2:26pm)
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Jul 2 2012, 2:30pm
Post #7 of 68
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Why should Bilbo/Bard/Beorn get married?
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It doesn't matter that The Hobbit doesn't follow this norm? And it wouldn't really add anything to the story.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 2 2012, 2:35pm
Post #8 of 68
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Is there any evidence that Tolkien had developed
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that internal reasoning before writing The Hobbit? It sounds to me more like a rationalization in hindsight.
And at any rate, since it is never discussed in The Hobbit, it doesn't really change the nature of that story. Similarly, if we suddenly learned that one of the dwarves accompanying Bilbo was female (theoretically possible), it wouldn't change the nature of the story because it was never mentioned in the story itself.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Jul 2 2012, 2:40pm
Post #9 of 68
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No, it probably wasn't written during/before The Hobbit
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But atleast there is internal reasoning - females aren't missing altogether. 
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 2 2012, 3:08pm
Post #10 of 68
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The Sackville-Bagginses are briefly mentioned in The Hobbit, but
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Lobelia is not, I think. While the women and children of Laketown are mentioned, none of them is named, let alone given a line to speak or a part to play.
I thought about Bilbo in the feminine role, but I don't think it fits. In LotR, Sam does mother Frodo, and fills the role that might be normally played by a woman -- although I do not buy into homosexual interpretations of that relationship. But to assume that Bilbo is feminine because he is so absurd in the first part of the story is an insult to women, and in fact Tolkien did write about female heroes, and they were never so incompetent. Maybe he did assist in the symbolic rebirth of the dwarves in "Barrels out of Bond," but Tom Bombadil performed a similar role when he rescued the hobbits from the Barrow -- those who assist in rebirth do not have to be female.
Note that The Princess Bride, despite being written for boys, was about a princess -- indeed, she was the title character. More typically, the princess or heiress does not have much of a role in the story, but is there for the hero to signify his success, like Princess Peach in Super Mario Brothers, or Arwen or Rose Cotton in LotR. On the other hand, Tolkien was perfectly capable of giving female characters substantial roles, as he did with Luthien and Eowyn. And of course there are stories where one or more of the villains is female.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 2 2012, 3:16pm
Post #11 of 68
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What is an example of a character who could not be of a different gender?
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There are many tales about female warriors -- Tolkien wrote one himself in LotR. Similarly, there are many tales about men who are not warriors. Why couldn't Gandalf be a female?
As to the issue of whether Tolkien is sexist, that's a different discussion. I already acknowledged that Tolkien was perfectly capable of creating strong female leads. He just didn't choose to do so in The Hobbit, and I am not suggesting that he made that choice because he was sexist.
When we do have the discussion about sexism, we will have to address Tolkien's apparent belief that women were fundamentally different from men -- not weaker, but different -- but as I said, that's a different discussion. And it's a hard discussion to have about The Hobbit because, again, there are no female characters.
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imin
Doriath
Jul 2 2012, 3:25pm
Post #12 of 68
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He could not be a woman as as he was to be king 
Gandallf could of been a woman as could any of the istari, just as eowyns character could have been a young boy unable to go to war and worried he may never get to fight like other men.
I think you are saying what i am in that there were characters that he created who were women and some were strong leads, it just so happens there are none in the hobbit. No reason for it probably beyond he just didnt feel like he had to include a female as a lead into the story. Female dwarves rarely travel so that kinda rules them out, as you said gandalf could have been a woman and i think bilbo is basically asexual so could be either gender as well.
As for is Tolkien racist/sexist etc - no he is not.
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imin
Doriath
Jul 2 2012, 3:33pm
Post #13 of 68
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Is there any features a character could have that means they can only have that gender given? /
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 2 2012, 3:35pm
Post #14 of 68
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Tolkien was perfectly aware of the norm.
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And he played with it in LotR, where several of the main characters did get married or engaged. He also had an explanation for why Frodo did not follow that convention. But there is no explanation for Bilbo's unconventional circumstances, or Bard's, or Beorn's, or the dwarves' -- there are just no women in the picture, for anyone.
Conventions matter because fiction relies on them. We have certain expectations from fiction, particularly genre fiction. The best genre authors play with conventions and expectations, as the best poets can play with the rigid formula for sonnets. It is impossible to write a sonnet that completely ignores the formula for sonnets -- it may be a fine poem, but it won't be a sonnet. Similarly, it is impossible to write a fairy story, fantasy, or folk tale that completely ignores the conventions for those genres -- it might be a fine tale, but it won't fit into those genres.
On the other hand, it would be a rare tale that hit all the conventions for a particular genre. The fact that there are no women in The Hobbit is not unique, just unusual, even among Tolkien's own fiction. And, since we know Tolkien was capable of writing strong female characters, it does raise the question -- why? Maybe it is as simple as looking to his first audience -- three prepubescent boys. But maybe there is more to it.
Or perhaps we should pass over the question why and ask instead how it affects the story. Would it have been a better story with a love interest? Is there something that takes the place of the princess in the castle? What are some common characteristics of tale with all male casts? Are there other, similar tales with an all male or mostly male cast? Do they have anything in common?
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 2 2012, 3:38pm
Post #15 of 68
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First, Tolkien rarely did anything without reason.
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Second, even if he did in this case, it still has an effect on the tale. So we can still examine how it affects the tale.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 2 2012, 3:41pm
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I can't think of anything, especially in a fantasy.
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Maybe a character who gives birth must be a woman, or would be considered a woman by human standards. But in a fantasy, anything is possible, and you could invent the character of a male who somehow gives birth -- as in Pinocchio, for example.
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imin
Doriath
Jul 2 2012, 3:45pm
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I like your reason of it being initially for three prepubescent boys.
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i know when i first read it as a prepubescent boy if i had found out at the very end of the story he got to marry some princess i would have rolled my eyes.
I think a lot of the characters are gender neutral and so could change most from male to female and wouldn't really have much effect other than i cant imagine how 13 female dwarves would have all got along when on the road (joking!)
(This post was edited by imin on Jul 2 2012, 3:47pm)
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Mim
Lindon
Jul 2 2012, 3:53pm
Post #18 of 68
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Because Tolkien didn't put any in
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This question almost feels like a non-question to me. Why aren't there any females in The Hobbit, because Tolkien didn't put any in. Now I'm not just saying that in an annoying, lets take the question literally way. I think that to see The Hobbit as any kind of gender commentary is a serious stretch. Yes Bilbo may be shown engaging in stereotypically feminine pursuits...but he is a bachelor and from what we see of Hobbits they don't have a culture that involves domestic servants. Even Sam isn't really a servant, he's a professional employee, a gardner. So Bilbo wouldn't really get very far if he didn't cook and clean. We could see that as a very women phobic move to eliminate women even from the safe role of servitude, but I doubt thats it, because there isn't really any more gender commentary. It doesn't seem like Tolkien is trying to say anything with the absence.
To me, The Hobbit is an adventure story written for some young boys. I don't think any of the characters need to marry, there isn't any reason for it really. Love interests would probably just frustrate the plot. Had Bilbo rescued a princess from the goblins instead of finding a ring, where would we be now?
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Jul 2 2012, 4:06pm
Post #19 of 68
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I still think it's no bad thing that The Hobbit doesn't follow the norm
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I'm not sure how a love story would enhance the story? Other than making it tragic if it were Thorin's or Fili or Kili's.
Bard and Beorn may also have had a love interest. You also have to think of what Tolkien didn't write, to appreciate everything
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Jul 2 2012, 4:11pm
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I suppose we could go through the text
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in order to discern where gender played a role in the story, apart from, say, as an incidental detail. For instance does knowing or assuming we know the gender of the various characters essential to our understanding of the tale? Did so and so do this or that because of their gender? If there are in fact instances where it is obvious that gender (leaving aside titles such as "King" for instance) is relevant to our understanding of why things played as they did, then perhaps it could be said that Tolkien absented women deliberately.
Perhaps it is a case now that we are sensitive about what appears to be gender disparity, when in fact the question is tangential at best. Certainly (assuming similar biological facts about the known world) Middle-earth at the time of The Hobbit was populated by both men and women. But this particular tale does not turn on such statistical data.
ps this is a quick and dirty post. I reserve the right to polish the ideas here when time permits.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 2 2012, 4:14pm
Post #21 of 68
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Okay, then what effect does it have on the story,
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if any, that there are no female characters? What functions do female characters perform in other tales of this kind? What compensates for their absence? Or is this a kind of tale that does not normally have female characters? If so, why not?
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 2 2012, 4:16pm
Post #22 of 68
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Well, how do love interests usually enhance a story?//
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Jul 2 2012, 4:21pm
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They don't, unless it's a romance story.
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The Hobbit is a children's adventure story. How could a romance enhance the story? The weddings and engagements in the trilogy give more depth to the characters. But the Lord of the Rings is 1000 pages longer than The Hobbit.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 2 2012, 4:49pm
Post #24 of 68
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Many children's tales still include a love interest,
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even if the love interest only appears at the end of the tale, or is part of a innocent, sexless, childhood relationship. Often the love interest is simply a symbol for finally reaching adulthood in a coming-of-age tale, or perhaps a foreshadowing of that event, even if the story says little about what that means. Sometimes the love interest is ancillary to the hero's tale, but the hero still has a role in helping the lovers.
Furthermore, The Hobbit is not written only for children. There are many parts of it that speak to adults, so why not a love interest, even if ancillary to Bilbo's tale? Also, Bilbo is not a child. Yes, he has childlike attributes, but it's still unusual that he has, apparently, no relationships with women.
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Mim
Lindon
Jul 2 2012, 4:52pm
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Female characters, if we have a male hero like we do in The Hobbit, quite often act as some kind of motivation for the hero. They need protecting, their deaths and violations need avenging, they're hands in marriage need winning, their fathers need impressing or like you pointed out, they're villains. Bilbo's motivation is centered around himself, he doesn't need a female character to motivate him. The Dwarves have treasure and revenge for it's taking as their motivation so there's no need for female character's either. So I guess the compensation, as you put it, for no female character's are these other motivations.
I also don't really think its set in stone whether this kind of tale should have/needs female characters. I think it's rather unimportant to this genre, really.
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