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Finwe
Menegroth
May 14 2012, 3:53am
Post #1 of 23
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High King of the Elves
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Upon reading the Silmarillion again, it struck me how throughout the book we're given countless examples of the pride and power of the Noldor, yet Ingwe's title is never challenged, nor is there any indication anyone even gave thought to such an idea. Feanor especially seems a likely challenger, at least in his eyes. They had no problem murdering Teleri or questioning the authority of the Valar, so it seems in their rebellion they missed a rung on the ladder of Arda. Is anyone aware of any writings or letters where Tolkien may have addressed this question?
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ElendilTheShort
Mithlond
May 14 2012, 7:48am
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because none of the Noldor ever sought to usurp the Vanyar or Valar and only killed the Teleri because they had something they wanted that they would not willingly part with. The Noldor only wanted to rule lands free of the influence (or as Melkors lies had them believe, the domination ) of others.
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
May 14 2012, 1:34pm
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They didn't want to rule other Elves, but to
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not to be ruled by anyone other. In theory you could say them "declaring independence" from the Valar is also them declaring independence from rule of Ingwë. Not in the sense that they'd try to usurp Ingwë's throne, but that they didn't care about his stinky throne anymore.
To be honest, I've always been left a bit baffled by the Vanyar. They don't do or make anything, they just are.... being better.... claiming to be your rulers... Heck, their speciality is supposed to be poetry and singing, and yet the Teleri are also good in those things, even calling themselves the Singers. I guess their speciality is then just being holier than thou. 
Therfore I've also always been baffled by Ingwë. "So what did this guy do to be called the High King of all Elves? He just journeyed to Valinor, but so did Finwë and Elwë. Is he just born better? Forget this. Fingolfin is my High King!" 
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
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CuriousG
Gondolin
May 14 2012, 2:31pm
Post #4 of 23
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Since we never see Ingwe do anything, to me it's just a title without substance. I would think that when there was strife/tension between Feanor and Fingolfin in Valinor, it would have been Ingwe's duty to intervene to keep the peace, but he did nothing that we hear about. Likewise when Finwe went into that sort of internal exile with Feanor, I'd expect Ingwe to have mediated between Elves and Valar. And again, if he was an effective overlord, he should have said something to the Noldor about how they shouldn't follow Feanor. I wouldn't fault him in any of this, I just see his title as ceremonial and not backed up with any real authority over other kindreds.
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
May 14 2012, 2:52pm
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If he does have some real power, we never see it being used.
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
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PhantomS
Nargothrond
May 14 2012, 3:35pm
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the Noldor did not live on the slopes of Manwe's mountain and preferred to hang with Aule and his Maiar. The only Vanya they even knew was Indis, who was married to their own High King Finwe. As all Elves venerate Manwe and Varda, the Elves that live among them are probably thought of as the highest born as they don't seem to have any kind of worldly pursuits (although they are pretty strong warriors later in the War of Wrath) and are constantly aloof from the problems of the more 'involved' Elves of the Noldor and Teleri.
Feanor no doubt felt that he should be in charge of everything, but his arguement came from Finwe's slaying and the theft of his jewels- a wholly Noldor problem that the Vanyar probably had nothing to do with, especially with the Trees dead and Manwe rather lost for words at that moment. One supposes that the Noldor equate the Vanyar to being in the same vein as the Valar, hence there was no point in attacking or taking over their leadership. They are mentioned as the smallest group among the three Caliquendi, so Feanor could easily ignore them as he knew they would support the Valar and (in his eyes) do nothing, The Teleri were his first refusers and thus suffered at his hands as a show of power.
Like others have said in the thread, it's likely Ingwe held a more symbolic title of High King as all three clans lived separately for the most part. Feanor was the first lord to raise an army and Fingolfin the first to become High King of the Noldor ; no one even mentions who the leader of the Teleri was (probably Olwe) or what his title would be, if he had one. Being the only one in Valinor from the original three who came with Orome, Ingwe would indeed be the 'high king' with Finwe dead and Elwe stuck in Doriath.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
May 14 2012, 6:27pm
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Wasn't Finrod in love with a Vanya, but she wouldn't leave Valinor with him? I dimly remember her as the only other one we hear about besides Indis and Ingwe. I think it came up in the discussion between Finrod and Galadriel, where she asks him about not having an heir for Nargothrond, and he replies with foresight that nothing of his kingdom would survive for a son to inherit, but after his statement there's the tidbit that his true love stayed behind anyway.
I suppose it says something about how little contact there was between Noldor and Vanyar that Indis was called "Of the Vanyar." If there were many more intermarriages or other mingling, I don't think that title would mean much and wouldn't be used.
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
May 14 2012, 8:11pm
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Perhaps after Vanyar moved out of Tirion
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and Noldor became closer to Teleri. But it's hard to believe in the preceeding centuries, when the both kindreds live together in the same city, there was no intermarriages. In the same time in Middle-Earth Noldor and Sindar married each other a lot, and the were hardly in as amiable terms. I'm rather sure this is how Glorfindel got his golden hair (or there's more missing from Finwë's family tree we know.)
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
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telain
Nargothrond
May 14 2012, 10:45pm
Post #10 of 23
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we've had similar ponderings...
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In particular the "just there" aspect of the Vanyar and the idea that Ingwë's title is not necessarily for everyone. (I completely agree, Fingolfin is my High King as well!)
I like your interpretation of the origin of Glorfindel's hair. Incidentally, it was one of "those things" that caught my eye in the films; the preponderance of fair-haired Elves (not that I was terribly surprised by that decision.)
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Bladerunner
Mithlond
May 14 2012, 11:43pm
Post #11 of 23
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On a different yet similar note...
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in Middle-Earth, specifically Beleriand, it was Elu Thingol, a Sindar, who was high king of the elves and who permitted the Noldor to establish colonies within it.
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Finwe
Menegroth
May 15 2012, 12:44am
Post #12 of 23
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After all, the Noldor did leave Middle Earth and Beleriand behind, so someone had to take charge. That said, I do wonder how much respect Feanor would have shown Thingol had he survived more than 5 seconds.
Also, thanks for the perspectives on my original post. After reading them, I agree that there really wasn't much reason for Feanor or anyone else to attempt to claim the title of High King of the Elves since it didn't carry any real significance.
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PhantomS
Nargothrond
May 15 2012, 4:12pm
Post #13 of 23
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elves, marriage and joint tax returns
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It's improbable to think that Vanyar and Noldor ever lived together and not had any relationships between the kindreds, but the way they are described makes the Vanyar seemingly distant to most of the Noldor in terms of ambition and hobbies. There would be the odd Noldor who didn't seem to fit the 'macho, let's build something please' type like Maglor or Galadriel that would get along swimmingly with them but with Elves it's evident over the years that they tend to live with their own as much as possible, even in peaceful times (ala the Dwarves).
So the odd Noldor who likes things like singing, gardening, talking to Valar and such might fit in well with the Vanyar but then again there are Valar like Aule,Orome and Tulkas who are more their style with the smithing and hunting. The Teleri are closer in spirit to the Noldor- they build ships and have a nice city of their own by the sea, and they like to sing about things like the Sea and the stars rather than some hymn about Manwe. In a similar vein the Numenoreans venerated Ulmo,since they were seafarers, and thus welcomed the Telerin sailors to their shores. As they were warriors they bonded with Gilgalad and the exiled Noldor as well. I have no idea what they would do with Vanyarin visitors-show them the Meneltarma?
As for Glorfindel, he was from 'The House Of The Golden Flower' , perhaps hinting he is in fact a blonde among blondes. If he was in fact a member of Turgon's family it would make sense to have blonde hair- Turgon's grandmother was Vanyar after all. Being a princess Indis would also have an entourage of her own people, so that might have been the start of Glorfindel's house as well, as a subset of Fingolfin's house.
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
May 16 2012, 1:05pm
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Fëanor wouldn't dream of bowing down to anyone who wasn't his precious daddy. Even the relatively clearly thinking Maedhros pretty much shrugged off Thingol's claim to kingship, saying that Thingol is the king of whatever lands he can keep after the Fëanorians have taken the lands they want.
Besides, why Thingol never bothered to see any of the newcomers himself in person? They were a gigantic change in the region's poltics; actually, without their last moment arrival Thingol's realm would have been besieged and probably ultimately finished. If he really wished to maintain some sort of real authority amongst all these new powerful lords with great armies, he could and should have at least met them. Managing your bussines via messengers seldom works.
So to me Thingol's claim to the High Kingship of the Elves of Middle-Earth sound rather similar to that of Ingwë. He might have had the title, but the real power lied elsewhere, in the feuding Noldorin families.
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
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CuriousG
Gondolin
May 16 2012, 3:49pm
Post #15 of 23
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I agree Thingol's claim to being overlord was pretty empty. It seems Cirdan recognized him. Hard to say with the Elves of Ossiriand after they become reclusive and decentralized, though they did help Beren avenge the slaughter in Doriath when the Dwarves came near. Either that was their sense of loyalty to Doriath, or just a sense of justice.
I can see Thingol claiming that title because there was otherwise a power vacuum and no contenders. He also married married well, and he was the only Elf in M-E who'd been to Valinor and back, so his status was the highest.
There are different wrinkles to his authority. He originally didn't want Men in the Forest of Brethil, which he still claimed as his own though it wasn't within the Girdle, but didn't oppose them with force.Then much later, when Morgoth was able to capture Minas Tirith and invade Beleriand, Thingol reversed past policy and sent troops to help the people of Haleth fight off the orcs who'd invaded their forest.
Eol lived near Doriath, but he seemed pretty independent of Thingol.
The children of Finarfin went to visit Menegroth, but not other Noldorin rulers. When Finrod told Thingol about his dream kingdom, Thingol seemed to grant him Nargothrond as a fief. Hard to say how seriously Finrod took that.
Something else to consider (I know I'm just muddying the waters, but it's Tolkien's fault since I'm only citing him  ), is that when Turgon went to Gondolin, he took ALL of "his" Sindar with him, and they outnumbered the Noldor. Wouldn't they have felt the need to ask their High King Thingol to go along (and thus reveal it to him), or wouldn't some have said Turgon couldn't boss them around that much and they'd stay behind to be ruled by their High King? They didn't, so Turgon's authority seemed to be the only one they recognized.
NOTE on previous post: oops. I forgot about the Vanyar dwelling with the Noldor on Tirion. And I suppose "of the Vanyar" wouldn't have to be used sparingly. Henry VIII of England married "Anne of Cleves," and I don't think she was the only person from Cleves that people in London had ever met.
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
May 16 2012, 4:47pm
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Sindar were divided into three groups: Doriathrin, coastal (ruled by Círdan), and northern. Apparently the northern Sindar were looked down upon by the Doriathrin Sindar (it's the Elves, stuff like this must come from their mother's milk.) Turgon's Sindar were probably mostly of the northern stock. Perhaps they were happy to be accepted into the Noldorin society as equals and didn't long for the haughty Menegrothians.
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
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Finwe
Menegroth
May 16 2012, 6:55pm
Post #17 of 23
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Thingol certainly doesn't come off too well in The Silmarillion, at least not in my opinion. This is how I always imagine his meetings with his counselors going:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm1Jyusyoqk
Just substitute Avari for "Indians", Falas for Rock Ridge, and giant treehouse for my daughter for "Gambling Casino for the Insane". The redhead even makes a nice Melian.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
May 17 2012, 1:44pm
Post #18 of 23
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Yeah, I never much cared for Thingol either. He's similar to Denethor in being powerful, vain, reasonably intelligent, and hot-headed. I suppose narrow-minded too. You'd think that Melian would have had a better influence on him and made him smarter. Or that she'd have better taste and found a better mate.
My opinion aside, he was pivotal to many of the events in Beleriand, and Tolkien considered him important. I'm never quite sure how much Tolkien liked him himself. Not that an author has to like characters as friends, more about how much he empathizes with them. I get the sense that Tolkien had some empathy for Denethor, whose life was tortured and death was tragic. I don't infer as much empathy from Tolkien toward Thingol, whose death didn't have the same impact on me that Denethor's did. There's Thingol, haughtily and foolishly insulting the Dwarves over the Silmaril while without his guards. Blaming the victim, I suppose, but I thought he brought on his own death.
I am sure Thingol has fans in the Reading Room! Sorry if I offended anyone.
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Finwe
Menegroth
May 17 2012, 2:47pm
Post #19 of 23
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I'm obviously new, so is the reading room always this slow? I realize there are a lot of people who would rather discuss The Hobbit movie, so that's where most of the traffic is. Are the boards gonna be like this till 2015?
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
May 17 2012, 5:03pm
Post #20 of 23
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I'm not sure if the type of forum TORn has is best suited for the type of discussion the books rise. It's good for dicussing movies and all kinds of news and other happenings. For the books, it might be better to have fixed disucssions for each subject, where you could easily return time after time. Now I'm sure there's lots of interesting book related discussions, buried deep into the past pages, shattered into splittered sections in numerous discussions about the same thing. Or perhaps that's just me.
On other Tolkien related forums discussing the books - especially the Silm and HoME - is my main activity. But afterall, TORn is firstly built around the movies and movie news. I suppose this state of things is only natural.
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
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CuriousG
Gondolin
May 17 2012, 6:21pm
Post #21 of 23
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There's usually a bit more activity
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We recently read through the entire trilogy over several months, then a book of literary analysis of Tolkien. I enjoyed the trilogy discussion and participated more then; as enjoyable as it was, however, it left me a little burnt out from posting anywhere about anything. Our posts tend to be longer than the internet standard. I've never seen the "tl;dnr" comment here. (For anyone who had to look it up like I did = "too long; did not read.") Lots and lots of people lurk, but not as many post. I'm not seeing many posts lately from others that I'm used to seeing, but we all have fluctuations in real life demands, so could be anything.
We have many broad topics, such as "What's the role of Fate in Tolkien's universe?" That spans everything he wrote. Then there are very specific topics from a single book chapter, such as "Did the Moria Balrog have real wings, and could it really fly?" Then there are topics that cut across chapters, such as "How fast did the hobbits travel from the Shire to Rivendell?" I'm not sure how a site could be categorized to accommodate so many different discussions, but maybe others have an idea.
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Finwe
Menegroth
May 17 2012, 8:02pm
Post #22 of 23
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I've read through many of the old discussions and they were fascinating. I can understand why it would get old for the veterans talking about the same topics each time a new member joins.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
May 17 2012, 8:21pm
Post #23 of 23
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New members always bring new perspectives and provocative questions and are always welcomed. Just don't be discouraged that your posts aren't interesting if you don't get a lot of replies; it's not you, it's just that people get drawn off to other things. There are veterans who've been here for years who remain active posters, and they get caught up when they're back. (They're the ones in Valinor; I'm still stuck in Rohan.  )
And if someone says "we've discussed that before," I say, "so what, let's discuss it again. Maybe we'll learn something new this time."
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