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aruman
Ossiriand
Apr 6 2012, 4:40am
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Could Gollum sense the Ring/Was he attracted to it?
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I've always wondered this.
It would explain a lot.
It's perfectly possible that he bumped into the Fellowship in Moria by chance or fate (and not necessarily his own conscious or unconscious attraction to the Ring). But he followed them very closely afterwards, even following Frodo after the Breaking of the Fellowship.
It seems clear to me that he could sense that Frodo was carrying the ring. Maybe he recognized a fellow Ringbearer?
This of course, raises another question, (which may be tough to answer since Tolkien wrote the Hobbit before planning LOTR)- Did Gollum sense the Bilbo had the ring during the riddle game? Clearly if he did he didn't realize it at first.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Apr 6 2012, 8:43am
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I believe that Gollum was attracted to the Ring. He desired to have the Ring for himself. And I believe, in this case, desire and sensing/attraction are synonymous.
As the film puts it:
And now the Ring had drawn him here. He will never be rid of his need for it. He hates and loves the Ring, as he hates and loves himself."
Gollum had been under the Misty Mountains at the same time as the Fellowship. He must have sensed it to be able to find them.
Concerning Bilbo, I can't imagine that Gollum's sense is like one's we are familiar with (sight, hearing, touch etc.). I don't think he could pin-point an exact location. Yes he could sense the Ring, since he *thought* it remained on his island in the middle of the lake. Why would he think, during the riddle game otherwise?
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squire
Gondolin
Apr 6 2012, 12:44pm
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I think the book does imply that Gollum could sense the Ring's presence from a fairly close range - as an explanation for why he followed the Ringbearer from Moria to the Emyn Muil. But that is not the same as an assertion that the Ring drew him into Moria in the first place. As Tolkien implies in the story, and explains in one of his unpublished notes, Gollum entered Moria in an attempt to head West towards the Shire where Baggins lived. It was a coincidence - as fateful as may be - that he was trapped and starving inside the West Gateroom just as the Fellowship entered that night.
In The Hobbit, it seems clear that Gollum had no idea that Bilbo held his ring during the Riddle Game. He thought the ring was back on the island because that's where he always left it when he wasn't hunting with it.
I think using quotes from the New Line films to answer questions about Tolkien's work is risky. The screenwriters were under no obligation to stay faithful to the details of the author's story and they usually took liberties that enhanced the drama or simplified the backstory. Nowhere does Tolkien write about Gollum that the Ring had "drawn him here" i.e. into Moria; that line of film-Gandalf's quite deceptively enhances the power of the Ring to attract and entrap, far beyond Tolkien's deliberately ambiguous explanations.
squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Apr 6 2012, 12:48pm
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That's why I said, as the film puts it
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You have put exactly what I have said, just better 
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GAndyalf
Doriath
Apr 6 2012, 8:02pm
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Adding one note to squire's excellent reply...
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The original poster noted the riddle game and that Tolkien had no intention at that point of connecting The Hobbit to his "older legendarium" so there could legitimately raise the question about proximity since Bilbo was so very close to Gollum with the Ring in his pocket.
To explain this away we might assume one or both of two things: First, the Ring "was not awake" when Bilbo found the Ring and it is possible that any sensing of it by a bearer would not be 'active' at that time because Sauron wasn't actively exerting his will/call for it to return. (It can be argued that as Sauron had reformed that he was, but it's equally possible that Sauron was searching without exerting at just that point). Secondly, the Ring abandoned Gollum in search of a master that would be easier to subdue that would bring it to Sauron in the re-write of The Hobbit (originally Gollum really did just lose the darned thing!) The Ring "knew" that Gollum would never willingly leave the Misty Mountain's heart ever again so it was actively seeking a bearer that would take it towards Sauron and as such may simply not have wished for Gollum to know Bilbo had it.
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
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aruman
Ossiriand
Apr 7 2012, 10:15pm
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The ring may have had control over whether Gollum could sense it, and probably didn't want to be recovered by him. This brings up another question, could the ring have been thinking, "I've got to ditch this loser Gollum, let me fall off his finger and get picked up by an Orc. Wait- what's happening...Shoot, shoot, shoot! Who's this Baggins fellow?" Of course, then it might have been trying to get Gollum to sense it so he would get it back, but then again, maybe it figured it had a better chance with Bilbo. Sorry, just thinking out loud here, found that interesting.
I also wonder if perhaps Gollum could kind of sense it, like he felt something was strange about Bilbo, but did not fully realize what that feeling was until he couldn't find the ring on his island.
PS I find it surprising that Gollum was able to keep it on his island and not on his person at all times. I seem to remember it burning him or something, but I've got to re-read the Shadow of the Past chapter.
(This post was edited by aruman on Apr 7 2012, 10:21pm)
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dormouse
Gondolin
Apr 8 2012, 8:15am
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I don't think the Ring burned Gollum...
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.... could be wrong, but I think the only person who found it painful to touch was Isildur. He took it fresh from Sauron's hand, when its power was still active and the writing on it could still be read. "I buy it with great pain" - or words to that effect; something like that comes into the description he writes before he leaves Gondor for the north.
Seems to me that Gollum is aware when the Ring is near, but not precisely where it is. He thought it was on the island and the island wasn't far away, so it didn't occur to him that Bilbo had it - why would it? But given that the Ring on Sauron's hand was so 'active' that it was agony for Isildur to touch it, and yet in its later career it feels like any other ring, I wonder if it doesn't draw its power from the wearer - a bit like a rechargeable battery. Bilbo wasn't evil and had no presuppositions about the Ring. As far as he was concerned he found a.n.other ring, put it in his pocket and promptly forgot about it, so there wouldn't be any conscious intent there for it to feed on. It's only when he discovers that it can make him invisible that he starts to value it and think about it that he 'plugs it in'.
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GAndyalf
Doriath
Apr 8 2012, 3:46pm
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Though I don't believe even Isildur was 'burned' in the usual sense of that word. I think the Ring was trying to 'burn' its way into Isildur's mind. I think that Sauron might actually have foreseen that someone might get the Ring from him (it DOES have perhaps the best defense mechanism ever written into a story!) and the One could not possibly have gotten a better 'heir' in Isildur if it had hand-chosen one since Gil-Galad was dead.
It's also possible, since we're on this topic, that history and even Isildur's heirs misread him badly on this score. Yes, he failed to destroy the Ring, but why WOULD the Ring abandon him? He was the third most-powerful person in Middle-earth at the time, It wasn't likely to get Elrond or Galadriel so it was with the best possible person it COULD have been with, and Men by all accounts are "the most easily corruptible". So why DID the Ring leave Isildur? I put forward for consideration that perhaps Isildur DID have the strength Aragorn and Faramir showed later, even actually possessing the One and the Ring abandoned him because he WAS fighting its evil so well? So little is written about it and what was written was from the point of view of those not sympathetic to Isildur (even I subscribed to the standard history until reading your comments here, so this is a very fresh idea even for me) that we'll never know but I find it very curious about the Ring choosing to abandon Isildur instead of working its way to corrupt the North Kingdom through him?
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
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imin
Doriath
Apr 8 2012, 6:02pm
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Perhaps the burning is meant in more ways than one.
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Sauron was burning hot so its safe to assume a metal object thats wrapped around him would also be burning hot, and so hurt isildur. Gil-galad was burned to death by sauron's touch.
I like the idea though that it burnt into the owners minds. I dont think Isildur was a bad guy, he did many things in his life for good, such as stealing a fruit of nimloth which would later become the white tree of gondor, which he was wounded many times. He just fell under the rings power like almost everyone would have.
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ElendilTheShort
Mithlond
Apr 8 2012, 6:57pm
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from the scroll of Isildur which Gandalf quotes in LOTR .........the ring maybe misses the heat of Saurons hand which burned as hot as a glede, and so Gil-galad was slain......so no mystery here, Saurons hand was very hot, that is why Isildur could see the ring inscription, the ring had been heated up so much that it was hot to the touch.
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ElendilTheShort
Mithlond
Apr 8 2012, 7:07pm
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you are nearer to the mark than you realise. Isildur was not vilified for his actions in the books, it is mainly due to the bastardised version of Elrond in the movies as well as Arwens and Aragorns comments in the movies that we are lead to beleive that Isildur is meant to be thought of as a bad guy. Even his dissapearance in the EE when his men are ambushed is wrong . He had to be talked into leaving his men and fleeing the battlefield by his son who was his last counsel at the time and only to elude capture of the ring. Isildur did not want to leave the battlefield and regretted bringing the evil fortune on his men. This is all written in Unfinished Tales, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields.
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GAndyalf
Doriath
Apr 8 2012, 9:21pm
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I am a 'book-firster' and know what you're speaking of very well. But how much he was able to resist or not isn't recorded, even in Gondor so we're left to our own observations and feelings on the matter. I quite agree that Mr Jackson was trying to make a movie where people are sheep and need someone to be thoroughly evil and men utterly weak - that's why he destroyed the character of Faramir!
Thanks again!
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
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Al Carondas
Menegroth
Apr 8 2012, 11:06pm
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But of course, you're right, GAndyalf
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Yes, he failed to destroy the Ring, but why WOULD the Ring abandon him? He was the third most-powerful person in Middle-earth at the time, It wasn't likely to get Elrond or Galadriel so it was with the best possible person it COULD have been with, and Men by all accounts are "the most easily corruptible". So why DID the Ring leave Isildur? I put forward for consideration that perhaps Isildur DID have the strength Aragorn and Faramir showed later, even actually possessing the One and the Ring abandoned him because he WAS fighting its evil so well?
Isildur did have a mind to rid himself of the Ring. And he had also a will to resist it. Isildur was no ordinary joe. He was a great and extraordinarily noble man, and Tolkien gives us a glimpse of this in the Unfinished Tales. For when they were beset and in dire straits at the Gladden Fields, Isildur's son urged him to use the Ring to "cow these foul creatures and command them to obey you." This is Isildur's reply:
"I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three."
Tolkien tells us that Isildur was headed north because he had "an urgent need for the counsel of Elrond." I think the implication of these two quotes is that Isildur had undergone a change of heart with regard to the Ring, after he had written the scroll (which Gandalf would later find). Isildur was clearly not prepared to use the Ring under even the most personally desperate circumstances (as these certainly were). He had come to realize the peril of the Ring and intended to give it over to Elrond's care.
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Menegroth
Apr 8 2012, 11:20pm
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Yes, the Ring did "gall" Gollum...
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I remember that being the word that Tolkien used (or think I do). I'm pretty sure, although I'm not sure where I read it. Gollum wore the Ring around his neck, but eventually it galled him, and he set it aside on the island. He had become so stealthy that he hardly needed it anymore for hunting.
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Menegroth
Apr 9 2012, 12:33am
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Of course the real answer, as has already been explained, is that Tolkien originally wrote the encounter with Gollum without regard to the later-expanded power of the Ring. But Gandalf also relates in "The Shadow of the Past" that Bilbo found the Ring by virtue of some force other than its maker. If Eru was guiding events enough to allow Bilbo to find the One, then maybe he cast a cloud over Gollum's mind enough to prevent his sensing the Ring in Bilbo's pocket.
"Good Morning!"
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GAndyalf
Doriath
Apr 9 2012, 12:35am
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It was actually in The Hobbit, Tolkien explaining why Gollum didn't have the Ring on him at the time?
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
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GAndyalf
Doriath
Apr 9 2012, 12:37am
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Or Eru worked through the small window of Gollum that...
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was yet unconquered? I agree that by Tolkien's view that Eru saw to it that both Gollum and Bilbo got the Ring, just as it was his work that lead Bilbo to adopt Frodo.
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
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ElendilTheShort
Mithlond
Apr 9 2012, 2:58am
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about the fact that Bilbo was meant to have it therefore Frodo was meant to have it and there are relevant writings by Tolkien about divine intervention and the will of Eru. Unfortunately I am not disposed to reference them at the moment but you Gandyalf and Al C seem to be very familiar with his other writings so I am sure you can source them.
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aruman
Ossiriand
Apr 9 2012, 4:24am
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I'm sorry if someone else already said this, but I haven't had a chance to read through all the posts yet...
Why WOULD the Ring abandon Isildur?
1.) Was Sauron's will calling out to it at all at that point?
2.) Didn't the Ring prefer to be found by Sauron? Wasn't it trying to get back to it's maker's hand?
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aruman
Ossiriand
Apr 9 2012, 4:32am
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The word I should have used was "galled." I will look this up more thoroughly tomorrow, but a brief internet search turned up the passage I was thinking of...it was from the Hobbit and states that Gollum no longer carried the ring in a pouch b/c it had begun to "gall" him. I actually had to look up the definition of "gall," and it looks to me like what it means in this context is that it was irritating him...
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ElendilTheShort
Mithlond
Apr 9 2012, 5:50am
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had finished it's use of Isildur, he was going to seek council as others have noted, so the Ring left him at the earliest opportunity, when Sauron's servants were near.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Apr 9 2012, 5:52am
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The Ring went from being possessed by a Man, albeit a strong one who was resisting so far, to lying on the bottom of a river for many years, and then helping an insignificant creature catch fish in a cave for 500 years. Not much of a strategic advance, from either the Ring's or Sauron's POV.
Without taking the time to go back and dig up the sources, I have to wonder if it really did "abandon" Isildur (a concept either planted or emphasized by the movie), or if whatever Powers controlled it were just inert at the time, and it happened by accident?
The only other rationale I can see is that, if Isildur was seriously intent on giving it to Elrond, it may have sensed a Power it didn't feel equipped to handle, so a sojourn in the river was preferable. Sauron can be patient when necessary (as ElendilTheShort said much more concisely!).
Is Tolkien a good writer, or amateurish and dated? Join the discussion of Tolkien: A Cultural Phenomenon by Brian Rosebury, now playing in the Reading Room!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Apr 9 2012, 5:56am)
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ElendilTheShort
Mithlond
Apr 9 2012, 7:47am
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strictly canon, from Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age "There the ring betrayed him and avenged it's maker, for it slipped from his finger as he swam, and it was lost in the water."
There is more in other sources that explains how the One Ring is in rapport with Sauron but any such abandonment of Isildur is not a master plan as such but more an opportunity taken.
As an example from UT Disaster of the Gladden Fields it is written of the orcs attacking Isildur's party "and though it was unknown to them the Ring, cut from his black hand two years before, was still laden with Sauron's evil will and called to all his servants for their aid."
(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Apr 9 2012, 7:49am)
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dormouse
Gondolin
Apr 9 2012, 8:03am
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I don't think the films are entirely responsible...
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... for the idea that the Ring 'abandoned' Isildur. Tolkien planted the idea by making Gandalf say (to Frodo in 'The Shadow of the Past') "A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it" - which carries the clear implication that even if the Ring had seemed to slip off accidentally, it had its own agenda. And the line "he was betrayed by it to his death' is Elrond's, from the chapter 'The Council of Elrond'.
What the film did was to simplify the whole thing - inevitably - so that Isildur looked like a baddie who was running off and abandoning his men. They didn't have time to go into the heroism and strength in Isildur; for their purposes he was just the inconvenient ancestor who could have destroyed the Ring and didn't and the ancestor Aragorn didn't want to become. 'The Disaster of the Gladden Fields' makes it clear that Isildur didn't want to leave but he knew that he had to get the Ring away, it was too important to be taken by orcs. In 'The Disaster' Tolkien suggests that the Ring itself was responsible for the orc attack. The orcs didn't know Isildur had it, but it "was still laden with Sauron's evil will and called to his servants for their aid." In that fuller story Isildur was actually climbing out of the river on the far side when the orcs shot him so perhaps the Ring was still trying to reach the orcs - and was foiled by the greater power that 'meant' Bilbo to find it when he did. Isildur was definitely trying to take the Ring to the keepers of the Three - that was the only reason he left his sons and the rest of his men.
But Tolkien, bless him, still leaves room for interpretation in the words he uses to describe the moment when Isildur realises the Ring has gone. "By chance, or chance well used, it had left his hand and gone where he could never hope to find it again. At first so overwhelming was his sense of loss that he struggled no more, and would have sunk and drowned. But swift as it had come, the mood passed. The pain had left him. A great burden had been taken away." Isildur's perspective, perhaps, "chance, or chance well used"...
For me that's one of the great delights of these stories. Like real history (my subject) they always feel unfinished, as if there is more there to discover and more to understand.
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