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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
The Ring Wraiths
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imin
Valinor

Mar 20 2012, 10:36pm

Post #76 of 94 (931 views)
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It was merry's sword [In reply to] Can't Post

which was forged by the Dunedain of Cardolan which allowed the witch king to be 'killed'. This sword was made with an enchantment, specifically to destroy wraiths such as the barrow wights and the nazgul, which broke the enchantment of the witch king, which allowed Eowyn (not being held back by either prophecy or dark power/enchantment of the wraith) killed the witch king.

I do however think it shocked the witch king when Dernhelm revealed herself to be Eowyn (a woman) but i dont think he was thinking, omg she is a woman so will definitely kill me.

not to be pedantic but maya is spelt maia.


(This post was edited by imin on Mar 20 2012, 10:38pm)


Jim
Rivendell


Mar 20 2012, 11:42pm

Post #77 of 94 (934 views)
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Don't forget... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf says to Aragorn in the "The White Rider" chapter something along the lines of "I am Gandalf the White but black is still mightier". Which indicates Sauron is more powerful than Gandalf and if Sauron does enhance the Witch King's power then there is some justification in saying at that time even he was more powerful than Gandalf.


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 21 2012, 7:13am

Post #78 of 94 (1017 views)
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I agree... [In reply to] Can't Post

for the most part. I don't think he was more powerful than Gandalf, but I do think he was ''in the same league''. It makes sense for Sauron to send forth someone to ''deal'' with the White Wizard, or at least ''hinder'' him ;).

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


RosieLass
Valinor


Mar 26 2012, 6:38am

Post #79 of 94 (931 views)
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And they're not in kill mode at Weathertop. [In reply to] Can't Post

They're just there to collect a piece of jewelry from a little hobbit. If they couldn't get what they wanted by fear and intimidation, they had a fall-back plan, with the shoulder wound.

If the Ringwraiths had been ordered to get the Ring and leave no survivors, they'd have all bought the farm. Aragorn, too.



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)

(This post was edited by RosieLass on Mar 26 2012, 6:38am)


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

Mar 28 2012, 10:19am

Post #80 of 94 (876 views)
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Wraiths and fear [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron does not specifically enhance the WKing or the others at Pelennor it is just that as his power grows so does theirs. It is due to the inherent nature of the One Rings domination of the others. The attack ar weathertop failed because Frodo fought back, he called the name Elbereth which is a terror to the wraiths and also the wraiths in particular the WKing could sense that Aragorn was a person of great power although they did not know who he was. Tolkien specifically states that the WKing was afraid after the encounter at weathertop. This information is all referred to in various of Tolkiens letters and differs substantially from how it is told in the story as told by the movies. Although no outcome is certain in combat Gandalfs pwer especially as the White is still greater than that of the WKing who's primary weapon is still as it always was, fear. Although he retained the ability he had in life, he was still only ever a man in origin unlike Gandalf who is Maia, and even with restrictions placed on him as one of the Istari by the Valar he is greater still than the wraith of a man


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 29 2012, 6:04pm

Post #81 of 94 (824 views)
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Erm... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Sauron does not specifically enhance the WKing ...at Pelennor


someone named J.R.R. Tolkien claims otherwise.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

Mar 30 2012, 8:33am

Post #82 of 94 (767 views)
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Fear was their weapon [In reply to] Can't Post

Letter 210, point 9 states in part. "There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force."

The way I have always read that is that the WKings power as increased due to being in command of Saurons forces as Sauron increases his war effort. As the ringwraiths "...peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear they inspire.." as Saurons power grows through his action and his will concentrates on his war effort, due to the nature of the ringwraiths the fear they inspire also grows. As exhibited at the black gate after his downfall when his will no longer drives his army, even the least of his minions previously driven by his will are bereft of direction. So the only point I was making was that the WKing was no more specifically or singularly increased in type of power or will than most of Saurons servants. Due to the nature of his being any increases were more marked and he would have been much more terrifying to the armies of the west but it should not be thought of that he had any more special powers that would help him in a fight against Gandalf because in the same note Tolkien also says "They have no great physical power against the fearless." That is why Gandalf and Snowmane could face him and that is how Eowyn and Mery were able to face him and defeat him amongst other devices at their disposal (blade of Westernesse) because they ovetcame their fear of him.


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Mar 30 2012, 8:39am)


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 30 2012, 11:32am

Post #83 of 94 (762 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

That may be your interpretation...mine is different.


Quote
They have no great physical power against the fearless.


I do not interpretate ''demonic power'' as physical power, but as magical power. Plus, it is not for nothing they call him the Witch King.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

Mar 30 2012, 6:55pm

Post #84 of 94 (744 views)
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Power at Pelennor [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes he was a sorcerer in life and according to Tolkien the wraiths retained the abilities they had in life and I say as much in my first post. Also the WKing demonstrates some sort of spell againsr Frodo at Brunien as well as assisting Grond in breaking the doors at the Seige of Gondor but he never exhibits any "enhanced power" as people are putting it in any of his physical battles otherwise he would have used it instead of attacking people with his fell beast and his mace. The disinction I am trying to make is that people should not confuse the apparent nature of his increase in power that he exhibits in the movie with what Tolkien had intended when commenting on "demonic force". The increase in his ability to cause fear which is repeatedly explained in the books and supporting sources as their primary weapon was enough in itself to have a massive effect at Pelennor but nothing else is ever shown apart from the breaking of the gate, vso I would be interested in any proof you have that you think explains why he would have had an added advantage in combat against Gandalf at Pelennor as opposed to Aragorn at Weathertop.


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 31 2012, 6:34am

Post #85 of 94 (751 views)
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No. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm just saying how I interpretate things. You are the one presenting what you say as facts. So it is not me who has to come with proof, but you.


In Reply To
The disinction I am trying to make is that people should not confuse the apparent nature of his increase in power that he exhibits in the movie with what Tolkien had intended when commenting on "demonic force".


How do you know what Tolkien 'intended'?


In Reply To
The increase in his ability to cause fear which is repeatedly explained in the books[/eply]

I do not think it is stated explicitly in the books that it was (only) his ability to cause fear that got increased. Where does it say that?

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

Mar 31 2012, 7:21pm

Post #86 of 94 (742 views)
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Proof vs interpretation [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm just saying how I interpretate things. You are the one presenting what you say as facts. So it is not me who has to come with proof, but you.

I have simply been trying to dispel the myth that has come up in this thread that what Tolkien wrote in letter 210 about demonic force meant that the WKing had specifically been given enhanced powers by Sauron that would help in combat, in this case bought about by how this scene differed from book to movie. I am quoting Tolkiens work himself so I do not see how it could be wrong. You yourself implied in your original post to me that what I was sayibg was at odds with what Tolkien wrote and I have offered up my side of the argument with textual evidence not just my interpretation. I would not argue against your interpretation as that is your right to interpret things however you want. I am just saying I am not aware of any textual evidence to support it and I think you took my asking this as a personal attack where it was a genuine request because I enjoy discovering more about Tolkien.


In Reply To
The disinction I am trying to make is that people should not confuse the apparent nature of his increase in power that he exhibits in the movie with what Tolkien had intended when commenting on "demonic force".


How do you know what Tolkien 'intended'?

I do not "know" with any certainty any more than anyone else can know, and I certainly
"know" a lot less than many people who have studied his works for decades, but what I am trying to exhibit as knowledge is based on compiling what I have read on the matter into a reasonable discusdion. For example if Tolkien had intended the WKing's added demonic force to have helped him in combat against Gandalf or others we would have seen it, but once again reiterating my earlier point, those who could withstand the fear he generated were able to stand up to him.


In Reply To
The increase in his ability to cause fear which is repeatedly explained in the books[/eply]

I do not think it is stated explicitly in the books that it was (only) his ability to cause fear that got increased. Where does it say that?


I have partially answered that above, but I would ask you once again, where in the books does it say other than what I have stated. People, yourself included are using the term demonic force as an open interpretation where I am saying Tolkiens writing in no way supports this in that there is no evidence that the WKings added demonic force helped him in any way in direct combat against those who could stand up to fis well documented power of fear.

So please feel free to interpret his work however you want but don't tell me that Tolkiens work would suggest other than what I have written without textual proof to support it because your interpretaion is not valid as an argument in such context. If everying is left up to peoples interpretation then we do end up with the WKing easily besting Gandalf when he was not likely to be capable of such a thing and we also end up with 30 foot tall balrogs when Tolkiens latest writing on the matter had Balrogs as being only about 6 to 6 and a half feet tall.

I would actually be happy if you prove me wrong with textual evidence because it would mean I am learning more. I do not disrespect you or your opinion but the context of the discussion has to have some defining boundaries otherwise it becomes all about opinion or interpretation and less about what Tolkien wrote, and although he is no longer with us and we do have to fill some of the gaps ourselves I think in this case interpreting this one line about demonic force in letter 210 to mean that all of a sudden the WKing had many more powers at his disposal to defeat Gandalf is incorrect as there is absolutely no other evidence to support this opinion that I know of, so if there is evidence out there I would like to bemade aware of it.


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 31 2012, 7:31pm

Post #87 of 94 (771 views)
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You say it's interpretation vs proof... [In reply to] Can't Post

but where is your proof then? It could be my bad but I haven't seen any proof of Tolkien stating clearly and directly that the Witch King's ''added demonic power'' was nothing more than just fear. As long as you do not provide such proof, what you are stating also is nothing more and nothing less than interpretation.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''

(This post was edited by Ereinion Nénharma on Mar 31 2012, 7:32pm)


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

Mar 31 2012, 7:43pm

Post #88 of 94 (734 views)
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Context of reply [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Sauron does not specifically enhance the WKing ...at Pelennor


someone named J.R.R. Tolkien claims otherwise.


In conclusion if you were going to base your argument against what I had written in the manner you have been you should have replaced the words "J.R.R.Tolkien claims" in your reply above with "Ereinion Nenharma interprets"


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 31 2012, 8:10pm

Post #89 of 94 (739 views)
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Yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

you are right. But the same counts for you. You have given no more ''proof'' than I did. You seem to suggest that my interpretation is just interpretation, while your interpretation is the truth. Not a good attitude for discussion. (Forgive me if I am getting it all wrong and you do not mean it this way)

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

Mar 31 2012, 8:43pm

Post #90 of 94 (709 views)
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Written evidence [In reply to] Can't Post

Nope just basing my argument on what has been written by Tolkien other in addition to that one line about demonic force, not what hasn't been written about the limitations or otherwise of the WKing's power. I only responded thus due to your initial claim regards Tolkien opinion, in that I thought you had more evidence based on what he had written not just your interpretation. Otherwise I my self could interpret that added demonic force means he could fire lighrning bolts from his eyes as an example, but he didn't according to Tolkien and if the WKing could do such a thing and didn't then the WKing is a fool, a poor strategist which is also against what Tolkien wrote about him.

I have already said I respect yours and anyones interptetation but it cannot be claimed as Tolkiens opinion as you did if it has nt been written specifically by him. What you are saying I claim as truths are only what has been written by Tolkien. If you do not beleive me please refer to the materials which I have quoted as I am nor pulling these statements out of thin air


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 31 2012, 8:47pm

Post #91 of 94 (752 views)
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Those statements... [In reply to] Can't Post

do NOT, I repeat do NOT, state directly and clearly that the Witch King's ''added demonic force'' was nothing more than an ''enhanced fear factor'', Tolkien does NOT say that, that is only your interpretation. Not fact.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

Mar 31 2012, 9:12pm

Post #92 of 94 (704 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

they don't but it is not all that is written on theatyer and what else does does not support the opinion that you and othwrs had here that hos combat abolity would be advantaged by his added demonic force. Answer thos, if je was so enhanced why did he not use tjese powers in the book to defeat gandalf merry & eowyn. He did inthe movie ise them to defeat gandalf but this was pj's inyerpretation not Tolkiens canon works.


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 31 2012, 9:19pm

Post #93 of 94 (724 views)
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Don't... [In reply to] Can't Post

turn things around here. I already stated clearly that it is just my interpretation, while you keep presenting your interpretation as fact. You have no more support for your interpretation than I have for mine.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Mar 31 2012, 9:25pm

Post #94 of 94 (1907 views)
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*readies bucket of ice water* [In reply to] Can't Post

The temperature of this subthread is getting pretty high. The 'you think - no you think' circuitous argument will end here, or I'll remove this side discussion.

Feel free to discuss the topic of Ringwraiths, but keep personal comments out of it.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories

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