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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Mar 24 2012, 12:39am
Post #176 of 207
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Tolkien says in The Hobbit (Page 181 Revised Edition Paper Back.
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"now we are drawing near the end of the great eastward journey and coming to the last and greatest adventure, so we must hurry on." This falls at the point where the Barrels first are brought to shore. It sure sounds like the split in the story...
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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imin
Doriath
Mar 24 2012, 1:10am
Post #177 of 207
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Do you know when exactly the white council attacked dol guldur
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i know gandalf left the dwarves and bilbo just before they entered mirkwood but do we know exactly when he finished or do we just know he popped back into the story just before the battle of five armies?
Answering what you posted. I think it does sound like a natural split perhaps, but maybe leaves too much for film one to do. I mean they would have to meet bilbo, attacked by trolls, rivendell, attacked by goblins, gollum, attacked by goblins and wargs, eagle rescue, carrock and beorn, mirkwood, spiders, captured by elves, escape in barrels. not to mention the dol guldur suplot and back story.
Just sounds like alot is going to be happening in film one. Although the battle could be lengthened in film two which im guessing it will.
I think you are right it will be split there or there abouts, but i am a little concerned that, that will be cramming too much into film one.
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Mar 24 2012, 9:11am
Post #178 of 207
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The Hobbit Part Two: There & Back Again
Opens with Prologue that glimpses:
1. The gift of the rings to the Dwarves by Sauron.
2. The passing of the ring to Thrain by Thror.
3. The death of Thror leading to Azanulbizar("The war of the Dwarves and Goblins, with added Dain for character development, Balrog hints and Azog.")
Sequence 1. A Warm Welcome at Lake Town including the development of Bard as Heir to the Lordship of Dale and leader of the loyal opposition against the Master and his cronies. This could include some flash backs to the fall of The Kingdom Under the Mountain, Dale & Lake Town to Smaug.
Sequence 2. The Mountain and the Dragon. Scenes that probably will be included are:
A. The approach to the mountain.
B. The Finding of the Hidden Door
C. Bilbo and the Dragon
D. The assault by Smaug on Lake Town that ends in Bard Killing Smaug and the destruction of the Town.
Sequence 3. Not At Home, Thief in the Night and Gathering Clouds: Scenes that probably will be included are:
A. Bilbo's discovery of the Smaug-less treasure chamber and recovery of the Arkenstone (which will have been established earlier as a treasure of great importance to Thorin at earlier points either in flashback or dialogue.) and his concealment of the stone.
B. Dwarves are told by Roac of the Dragons death, the destruction of Esgaroth/Lake Town and the Approach of the Armies of Men & Elves. They fortify the entrance, send a message to Dain Ironfoot asking for support.
C. Initial confrontation between the two sides where Dwarves send off emissaries of the combined Man/Elf Host.
D. Bilbo betrays Thorin by handing over the Arkenstone to the enemy hoping to set up a brokered deal. Then takes the heat from Thorin and is forced to leave the Dwarves. Gandalf's presence will be revealed at some point in this scene.
Sequence 4. The Clouds Burst including The Battle of Five Armies and its immediate aftermath.
Scenes that probably will be included are:
A. The battle proper including the arrival of Dain and company, Beorn and the arrival of the eagles.
B. Bilbo's return to consciousness.
C. Thorin's death bed reconciliation with Bilbo.
D. The Burial of Thorin Oakenshield: King Under the Mountain and the assention of Dain. E. Farewell and thanks to the Eagles. F. Bilbo’s farewell to the Dwarves.
Sequence 5. The Journey Back: Scenes that probably will be included are:
A.Bilbo, Gandalf and Beorn travel with the Elven host to farewell at the edge of Mirkwood.
B. Alt.1. Bilbo, Gandalf and Beorn travel around the north end of Mirkwood to spend Yule at Beorn's Cassa.(in the book they stay till spring).
B. Alt. 2. The visit to Beorns home might be sacrificed by the movie and Bilbo & Gandalf just part ways with Beorn and journey on toward Rivendell.
B. Alt. 3 Bilbo, Gandalf and Beorn travel together until they reach the mouth of the cave where Bilbo, Gandalf and the Dwarves were captured by the Goblins. Here they stop and look back and see Mirkwood and the Lonely mountain in the Distance and Beorn turns back toward his home. (I like this Idea even though it differs from the book.)
Sequence 6. Imladris (In book they arrive on May Day a festival day.)
A. Elves sing silly songs to keep certain hard core book enthusiasts happy.
B.Gandalf discusses the White Council action with Elrond and Bilbo first hears about the driving out of the Necromancer from Dol Guldur.
C. Elves sing even more silly songs, Gandalf sets off stash of fireworks and pipes are smoked.
Sequence 7. Journey’s End:
A. Return past the Stone Trolls.
B. The auction at Bag End.
C. The Closing: Years later Balin & Gandalf come to visit Bilbo.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Black Breathalizer
Nargothrond
Mar 24 2012, 2:35pm
Post #179 of 207
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I would LOVE to see the Prologue you outlined. 
But you left out the Battle of Dol Guldur between the Necromancer and the White Council. There is no way that it will be in Film One.
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Mar 24 2012, 3:36pm
Post #180 of 207
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There was no battle between the White Council & The Necromancer.
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The Necro-dude split before the W.C got there. But Gandalf was done with that job by the time the Dwarves & Bilbo were welcomed at Lake Town. (At least that is the time-line in the book.)
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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imin
Doriath
Mar 24 2012, 4:03pm
Post #181 of 207
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What do you think Gandalf was doing between the time
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he appears again in the book and the time the white council attack Dol Guldur, is it ever mentioned anywhere?
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Black Breathalizer
Nargothrond
Mar 24 2012, 4:09pm
Post #182 of 207
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Kangi Sha wrote: There was no battle between the White Council & The Necromancer.
Directly from Tolkien's The Hobbit:
"It appeared that Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood."
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Mar 24 2012, 4:14pm
Post #183 of 207
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That doesn't show there was a battle
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or not. The Necromancer simply flees Dol Guldur. We are never told the extent of a "battle"
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Black Breathalizer
Nargothrond
Mar 24 2012, 4:35pm
Post #184 of 207
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DanielLB wrote: That doesn't show there was a battle.
 What? No battle???
There was evidently enough resistance for Elrond and Gandalf to tell Bilbo that the Necromancer had been driven out of Mirkwood.
The film makers are certainly not going to show the White Council waltzing into Dol Guldur as Sauron flees off to Mordor. Not only would that not be true to Tolkien, it would be boring to watch.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Mar 24 2012, 4:38pm
Post #185 of 207
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We are not told of the EXTENT of the battle
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Tolkien never says whether it was a fully-fledged battle, or a quick 10-minute sequence perfect for a film.
I'm agreeing with you, but you are presuming something that was never stated.
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Black Breathalizer
Nargothrond
Mar 24 2012, 4:45pm
Post #186 of 207
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DanielLB wrote: Tolkien never says whether it was a fully-fledged battle, or a quick 10-minute sequence perfect for a film.
I'm agreeing with you, but you are presuming something that was never stated.
This goes both ways. You are presuming it WASN'T a full-fledged battle.
Now, honestly, do you really believe the Peter Jackson we all know and love will pass up filming a battle at Dol Guldur???
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imin
Doriath
Mar 24 2012, 4:56pm
Post #187 of 207
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yeah there will be a battle for sure
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whether it will involve the necromancer himself is another question. It could just be between the white council (saruman using some devices as it says) and orcs, evil men under the command of the necromancer.
I hope we dont get to see gandalf and saruman do some kind of harry potter/voldemort battle with the necromancer but i think of course PJ cant resist a battle whenever he has the chance to put one in, lol.
Would also give a nice ending to movie one, the white council seemingly beating the necromancer.
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Black Breathalizer
Nargothrond
Mar 24 2012, 5:08pm
Post #188 of 207
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PJ: Just say NO to pyrotechnics.
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imin wrote: I hope we dont get to see gandalf and saruman do some kind of harry potter/voldemort battle with the necromancer
I think it's a good bet we WON'T see that kind of battle. In the 'making of lotr' documentaries, Jackson said he didn't want to do a 'pyrotechnic' dual between saruman and gandalf because it would look like 'typical' wizard fantasy stuff.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Mar 24 2012, 5:53pm
Post #189 of 207
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I do wonder whether you read posts properly or not /
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Mar 24 2012, 6:03pm
Post #190 of 207
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As it will always be compared to HP and so wouldn't work. But then again, I want to see Galadriel destroy Dol Guldur even though it being out of The Hobbit timeline! 
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Mar 24 2012, 7:11pm
Post #191 of 207
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There was enough resistance at Dol Guldur to fool the White Council.
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The Necro-dude split before the W.C got there. But Gandalf was done with that job by the time the Dwarves & Bilbo were welcomed at Lake Town. (At least that is the time-line in the book.)
There must have been some resistance. The Council was fooled into thinking that they had driven the Necromancer from southern Mirkwood, not that he snuck away before they arrived. It might not have been a very large battle, but I don't think that Peter Jackson will miss the opportunity to show some kind of action. It could be shown either before the end of An Unexpected Journey or near the beginning of There and Back Again; but I'm leaning towards the second film.
"Darkness beyond blackest pitch, deeper than the deepest night!
King of Darkness, who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos.
I call upon thee and swear myself to thee!
Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed by the power you and I possess!"
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imin
Doriath
Mar 24 2012, 8:09pm
Post #192 of 207
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he could sneak away and still have a battle
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just he wouldnt be there controlling his troops, just leave someone else in charge, just as he wasnt actually at the battle of the pelennor fields.
Send out loads of orcs and possibly easterlings in his service and that would be enough to keep them occupied, giving him time to slip away and giving the impression he still cares about dol guldur and isnt just going to leave.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Mar 24 2012, 8:52pm
Post #193 of 207
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Yes, that's one way it could play out.
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I was thinking something similar, but with the Necromancer actually being present at the beginning of the conflict. I do imagine that most of his troops would be a mixture of Men and Orcs, but maybe his strongest commanders could include Werewolves and Uruk-hai and he could also command one or more Wights. Battle-trolls would not be out-of-the-question; they could probably even fight during the day under the gloom of the forest.
The other big question about the battle is the make-up of the White Council's forces. Which Council members participate? Do they fight alone, or do they have their own support troops? I can see them employing Rivendell Elves and Northern Rangers, Sindar Elves from Lothlorien, and perhaps Elrond's sons Elladan and Elrohir. A contingent of Mirkwood Elves seems unlikely, but is not outside of the realm of possibility.
"Darkness beyond blackest pitch, deeper than the deepest night!
King of Darkness, who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos.
I call upon thee and swear myself to thee!
Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed by the power you and I possess!"
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imin
Doriath
Mar 24 2012, 9:19pm
Post #194 of 207
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Are you thinking of the necromancer
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himself fighting at the beginning of the battle and then retreating or just you can see him in the tower type thing?
Im not sure which i think will happen as either will work really, maybe just catching a glimpse of him in his tower would be more in keeping with the book.
I like your idea of a variety of enemies fighting the white council.
As we know there are only 5 named members of the white council, but it does say in UT that there are other elf lords, so like you say could mean important elves such as Glorfindel. I think in the movie they will have support of elves from lothlorien perhaps?
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Mar 24 2012, 9:51pm
Post #195 of 207
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I don't think that the Necromancer would have actually fought (Spoilers).
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Peter Jackson could stage it differently, but I think that Sauron probably put in an early appearance (as the Necromancer) and then left under the cover of the assault.
As we know there are only 5 named members of the white council, but it does say in UT that there are other elf lords, so like you say could mean important elves such as Glorfindel. I think in the movie they will have support of elves from lothlorien perhaps?
I'm not even sure that all of the Council members will be there. Saruman might abstain (he was never enthusiastic about the idea in the first place). Elrond may have stayed in Rivendell. That is one reason why I think that his sons and other Rivendell Elves may have been there instead. The Rangers had ties to both Rivendell and the Grey Havens. I think that some of Celeborn's folk taking part is a virtual certainty.
"Darkness beyond blackest pitch, deeper than the deepest night!
King of Darkness, who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos.
I call upon thee and swear myself to thee!
Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed by the power you and I possess!"
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Mar 24 2012, 9:56pm
Post #196 of 207
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Yes, the Ring wasn't yet destroyed, but would Sauron have risked turning up at the front line, to be defeated once again. All those years of hard work since loosing the Ring, I don't think he would risk it - since he had such a strong and large force behind him
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Mar 24 2012, 10:14pm
Post #197 of 207
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I never suggested that he would be at the forefront of battle.
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Only that Sauron would make some sort of appearance, perhaps from the wall of the fortress. He would send a force of troops out as a distraction and then leave unremarked, possibly by a secret way.
"Darkness beyond blackest pitch, deeper than the deepest night!
King of Darkness, who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos.
I call upon thee and swear myself to thee!
Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed by the power you and I possess!"
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imin
Doriath
Mar 24 2012, 10:16pm
Post #198 of 207
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was definitely there as, - it was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur - gandalf, council of elrond.
I am unsure about elronds sons as there has been no actors cast in those roles as far as i know. but maybe they have. Im sure celeborn would be a member of the white council so yeah i definitely think lorien elves will be there.
(This post was edited by imin on Mar 24 2012, 10:17pm)
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Mar 24 2012, 10:18pm
Post #199 of 207
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adding to the discussion, and your post was the last and most relevant one for my reply
And I agree with you about Sauron's appearance. I wish we had more details on how this sub-plot is going to pan out!
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Mar 24 2012, 10:21pm
Post #200 of 207
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was definitely there as, - it was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur - gandalf, council of elrond.
That's true. It may not play out that way on film though. Sir Christopher Lee's health may not have permitted his presence at the attack.
"Darkness beyond blackest pitch, deeper than the deepest night!
King of Darkness, who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos.
I call upon thee and swear myself to thee!
Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed by the power you and I possess!"
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