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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Feb 29 2012, 12:08am
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The Hobbit territory discussion schedule, Fili and Kili!
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Well, what can I say about these two? Twins, obviously, the youngest of the Dwarves, obviously and Fili has the best sight of the party. Not that that is too much to brag about I'm sure that Legolas has better sight than all of them! Anyway, they are the youngest and perhaps are not quite so fully aware of the dangers that await them on their quest. Two that have not been to Erebor at all. So it's all a new experience. Someone has told me that they are both good fighters, but I'm not convinced myself. Have they ever been in danger before? Not sure. Oh, and they both die at the end of the tale, not giving too much away. Arrrrrrrrr, poor young Dwarves! Still, I wonder if they did have a choice about going. They were both Thorin's sister-sons, an interesting relationship in Celtic mythology, but they might have said no I suppose. Anyway, any more information, opinions, thoughts about these two young-uns, please do so here, thanks!
(This post was edited by Hamfast Gamgee on Feb 29 2012, 12:14am)
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Feb 29 2012, 7:58am
Post #2 of 9
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Where has this myth come from?!
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Fili and Kili are not twins! The amount of times I've had to say it 
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
Feb 29 2012, 4:08pm
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They just die, that's all! 
There's a difference between being skillful and being experienced. They are young noblemen in a world where nobility are expected to be military leaders. No doubt they have been trained in using weapons and perhaps been lectured in war strategies and such. However, being so young they probably haven't seen much of a fight first-hand.
They are interesting expections in this adventure of men middle-aged and older. The Hobbit's cast is curiously old for a children's book. Logically this could mean Fili and Kili are ment to be surrogates for the intended audience: the ones the children reading or listening the story can identify with. But they're not given enough attention to really fill that purpose, and remain in the backround. Balin and Dori get much more personality. It's a pity, as they could have had potential to diversify the aged, grumpy cast with youthful enthuisiasm and perhaps idealism even.
Why then must they die? Usually it's only worth to kill a character the audience either hates or loves. Perhaps Tolkien counts on the "young people dyeing is extra sad" factor, or on the family bond factor. Perhaps it's a final punishment (or harsh lecture) for Thorin, who is the indirect cause of their deaths.
<3 Gandy, Raddy, Sharkey, Ally & Pally <3
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
Feb 29 2012, 4:08pm
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Fiction loves twins, that's why. //
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<3 Gandy, Raddy, Sharkey, Ally & Pally <3
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 1 2012, 7:42am
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I don't think Tolkien wrote it this way to toy with his audience.
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Why then must they die? Usually it's only worth to kill a character the audience either hates or loves. Perhaps Tolkien counts on the "young people dyeing is extra sad" factor, or on the family bond factor. Perhaps it's a final punishment (or harsh lecture) for Thorin, who is the indirect cause of their deaths.
It's actually completely in the tradition of chivalric and epic romances. Think of knights falling defending their liege lord. Also, the relationship of "sister-son" is a particularly close one, so if Thorin doesn't have sons, Fili and Kili would be his nearest relations and would be treated as heirs and sons. We also see a sister-son relationship with Theoden and Eomer...and I don't think Eomer would have hesitated to defend his uncle the King in battle if he had been nearby when he was struck down, as Eowyn, Theoden's sister-daughter did. And if he had, he would likely have died, since no Man could kill the Witch-king.
In addition to being family, Thorin is also King Under the Mountain, so Fili and Kili have a feudal/political relationship as well. (Similar to Denethor and Faramir: they are father and son, but also Steward and Captain and both of those relationships come into play between them.) They fell defending Thorin as his bodyguard, which would have been considered their proper duty, and dying in his cause an honorable end. I find it interesting that Tolkien doesn't save Thorin's bloodline where another writer more sentimental or less experienced in war might. Thorin went on a dangerous, some might say foolish, mission and did not survive, nor did some who followed him. His line ceased, and his title and possessions passed on to another branch of the family tree.
The way that Tolkien writes about war is interesting to me, because even though he often writes of eucatastrophe, and sometimes overlays it with the language of the knightly romances, when it comes down to outcome he doesn't pull his punches or indulge in sentiment about the "glories" of war. I just finished reading Sir Nigel, A Novel of the Hundred Years' War (one of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's historical novels) which features an endless stream of chivalrous knights fighting each other, often over absurdly small "points of honor", and dying in the hope of "worshipfully winning worship" and bringing glory to their houses. For all his lip service to some of the conventions of the old romances Tolkien never espouses the romantic view of war. That is, he recognizes and values highly the "chivalric" qualities of courage, faithfulness, and selflessness in the cause of protecting others and acknowledges that war can be necessary while never portraying it as a worthy or glorious end in itself. And while he doesn't kill off his title characters he doesn't hesitate with other major characters because, as he knew from personal experience, battles are no respecters of persons. Anyone can die, without apparent rhyme or reason. One person dies, another standing right next to him comes through unscathed. While the fighting rages, you concentrate on yourself and what you must do and when the battle is over, you do a count and find out who is left. And you mourn, but not too much because there are too many and you can't afford to dwell on it....but there are always those one or two losses that hit especially hard. The description of the discovery of Fili and Kili after the Bof5A reminds me of the short list of the fallen after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, and it has all the more resonance with me for being "true" in this sense. I read of the young dwarves dying, and I think of Tolkien saying that by 1918 all but one of his close friends were dead. If Fili and Kili's deaths are meant to represent anything, perhaps it is all the young soldiers in every war who die in their first battle. Even in a "children's fantasy book", Tolkien tells the truth. This is how it is, my children, my readers. This is how it is.
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Mar 1 2012, 7:49am)
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
Mar 1 2012, 1:59pm
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It's not toying, it's following the rules of drama
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I get your point, but I want to defend myself a bit here. Tolkien wasn't above or beneath to be just an author who wishes to write entertaining books that emotionally touch the reader. He names this his main goal in the foreword of LotR. To achieve this, the author must consider carefully what ends which characters meet. Sometimes things are that simple.
<3 Gandy, Raddy, Sharkey, Ally & Pally <3
(This post was edited by Faenoriel on Mar 1 2012, 1:59pm)
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sador
Gondolin
Mar 2 2012, 9:30am
Post #7 of 9
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Little sleepy boy, do you know what time it is?
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Well the hour of your bedtime's long been past.
And though I know you're fighting it,
I can tell it when you rub your eyes -
you're fading fast.
- Paul simon, Saint Judy's Comet.
What is there to say about these two?
Youth - humour, even exuberance
The first thing I notice about these two fine fellow is their high spirits and sense of humour: "Let us join the throng!" and "Some four, I should say".
Also that they are among the first two help, and - ooos, but that is noticed only after several readings! - they are the only ones to bring tool-boxes with them to Bilbo! Are the others too old, or too important to work? Or did these two get carried away at work, and went straight off to Bilbo without pausing to change and shave, err, comb?
Thorin mentions them as the two youngest, which might need to be told a bit about the Mountain and what's going on. Plain nonsense if they are indeed Thorin's heirs! Apparantly, this relationship was not conceived yet, and Thorin's aside was not edited in any revision - apparantly, not even in the 1960 rewrite.
In the Misty Mountains these two are sent on a scouting expedition, returning too quickly with a report that they have examined the cave thoroughly - although of course, they did not have enough time to do so. I wonder whether they lit a fire? Gandalf forbade the whole group to do so, but perhaps they did. And while the narrator condemns them for their impetousness, it is still commendable that rather than enjoying the shelter they have all for themselves, they are in a hurry to go back into the storm, and call their comrades.
Later on, they are the first to recover from the journey down the river in barrels; sure, they were packed neatly - but perhaps because they gave the least trouble? Fili even manges to joke again!
And of course, Fili gets impatient at the formalities the captain of thelake-town guard insists upon - quite a memorable outburst.
After that, they accompany Balin and Bilbo on the scouting mission to Dale; they fidget (but do not actually colunteer) when Bilbo asks for someone to accompany him down the Mountain; and Thorin commands them to stay in shelter while he is saving bofur and Bombur - perhaps preserving his father's line?
Inside the Mountain, they once again act young - the first thing they do is to take two harps and play them! Others are said to be more practical and stuff their pockets with treasure - just how is that more practical? Or were they counting on Smaug returning, and banking on their own chances as fugitives escaping back to Lake-town? It is a long run, though; I expect the two youngest hobbits had the best chance to outrun the others.
Later, they are named with Bombur as the only one who perhaps are not entirely happy with Thorin's obdurance. Are they less greedy? Or the only ones never to have been fugitives? A part of the hold the treasure has on Thorin is the memories of the sorrows of his race, and perhaps they feel this less acutely.
Why would these two be picked as the youngest ones? Perhaps because of their yellow beards. One might suggest this had to do with Fili's name and its similarity to "fillial" - but doesn't that word come from French? I can hardly see Tolkien choosing on that basis!
Youth - tragedy
These two have long been envisioned as casualities. In the first account of the Siege of the Mountain (which should be analysed on its own account, but not just now) these two are projected as scouting again and fleeing, pursued by Elves and Men. Kili finally returns to the Mountain, reporting that Fili has been wounded and captured.
This plotline was discarded; but it shows that (in response to your question) these two were envisioned as fighters by Tolkien. Another point is that in the 1960 rewrite, they were supposed to be the two last ones, which gave lots of trouble and fought like mad, replacing Bofur and Bombur - however, this makes them the last to hang behind. Highly unlikely, to my mind.
And then, of course, they die heroically defending their uncle.
I suppose this has got something to do with the post-WWI image of innocent young people caught in a war they do not understand (as suggested by Silverlode) - although I think they full well knew why they were fighting against the goblins; Tolkien was no Remarque, and not even Robert Graves.
Still, this leads to remarks such Feanorial's regarding their paying the price for Thorin's folly, which might perhaps be appropriate had they been killed by the Elves, as Fili in the draft. However, I must point out that in the draft it is clearly the Elves and men who are at fault.
I wanted also to comment on your suggestion that they were twins - wrong, as was pointed out, but indicative of the fact that these two brothers are the most interchangeable of Thorin's companions, But this will be postponed to another post.
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sador
Gondolin
Mar 5 2012, 2:40pm
Post #8 of 9
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Order of Precedence
When these two fine young fellows introduce themselves, Kili speaks first; and at the unexpected party each has one more sentence - showing their relative high spirits. You can't really help liking these two! Still, this implies that Kili is older.
Later, the two brothers are usually mentioned together. Fili is mentioned alone on five occasions, and Kili in only one; however, three of Fili's mentions are connected to each other, and in the fourth time (crossing the Enchanted River) Fili is definitely said to be the youngest.
However, in appendix A to The Lord of the Rings (the geneology table in Durin's Folk), Fili is the senior brother - he was eighty-two when he set out on the Quest of Erebor, while Kili was only seventy-seven!
This seems too direct a contradiction to reconcile; most probably, once Tolkien sat to draw the geneology of Thorin's family, he felt that the more outspoken member should be the elder - especially if he was to be Thorin's heir! (Although honestly, we cannot be sure that would be the case, as we know nothing of the laws governing succession in Durin's folk)
What of the statement in Flies and Spiders? Well, either Tolkien meant to edit it in the projected rewrite of The Hobbit (which he had begun and abandoned in 1960, but perhaps was planned long before), or he simply forgot about it (the most natural assumption) or he wiggled around it by reasoning that when Thorin said "youngest" he meant "the senior one of the two youngest". I do not remember what Christopher Tolkien wrote regarding this in HoME XII, but I'm pretty sure he refers to it.
The last option is the only one we have, if we accept both published books as canon; and while I have come up with this idea long ago, I have always felt it inadequate, and that probably what really happened was that Tolkien forgot.
Or to put it in a stronger way: before writing the boat episode, Fili was clearly envisioned as the youngest (I also thought his line in Roast Mutton and his outburst in A Warm Welcome were because he was young and indiscreet); but this fact made him figure more prominently than his brother; and consequently, Tolkien misremembered him as truly the more senior, and older. Ah, well.
Fili also got a mouthpiece in The Quest of Erebor - laughing at Bilbo's strange name.
However, when reading Rateliff's book, it turned out that Fili was envisioned throughout as the elder of the twain. Tolkien's mistake was when writing Thorin's words in the rewrite of Mirkwood, chosing the senior of the two but naming him the youngest. Later, Tolkien emended the first chapter (in the older draft, which Rateliff calls The Bladorthin Typescript) Fili was the first to introduce himself - but when the geneology was written, this change was forgotten.
Of course, the source of this is in the Dvergatal - were indeed Fili precedes Kili.
However, I wonder why Tolkien did not really make them twins, once he realised he named Fili the youngest? Couldn't dwarves have twins?
I must note that the couples of twins in Tolkien usually do die violently together - Amrod and Amras, Fastred and Folcred, perhaps even Derufin and Duilin.
An exception might be Pepsi_and_Moxie Dingleberry.
Personal Characteristics
Well, do they have any?
Fili is said to have the best sight of the dwarves - but were the two ever measured against each other? He is also more outspoken - but I'm not sure whether this indicates youth and impetousness, or being older.
However, Fili is the only dwarf characterised by a facial feature - by his prominent nose. This seems to follow up his comment in Roast Mutton regarding the awful smell in the trolls' cave, and is repeated when in A Warm Welcome he complains about the smell of apples. "When in doubt... always use your nose"
Kili? The one time he is mentioned by himself is as the watch who notices the third feast of the wood-elves. And he mentions the singing! Was he more suspectible to this attraction?
In that case, perhaps the Aidan Turner look, which was subject to much ridicule on the Hobbit movie-board, is not so far off the mark?
A last point - the mother
One thing that is missing, is any mention of Fili and Kili's father. I get it that their claim to royalty, and their connection to Thorin, was through their mother - but still I would expect something, even a mere name!
One of my wildest UUTs is that Dís did have a known spouse, and as likely as not he was a nobledwarf of Durin's folk. So I suspect he was somehow connected to Dori, Nori and Ori - a cousin of theirs' perhaps? Or an elder brother? That would account for their joining the expedition, and for their rather prominent status in it - higher than Óin and Glóin who nominally outrank them. Perhaps they were the senior patrilineal relatives of the young princes.
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 8 2012, 8:16pm
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The point about the role of Fili and Kili as Thorin's sister-sons is a great catch. Tolkien softens their death by barely giving them a personality during the story, but, nevertheless, they do die.
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