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burrahobbit
Nargothrond
Feb 10 2012, 12:20am
Post #101 of 176
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Tolkien's ambivalent relationship with Celtic mythology
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Before I start my little rant, I'll just say I agree completely with the inappropriateness of Gimli's Scottish accent, and am not impressed with Billy Connolly as Dain either.
But I find the following somewhat bizarre:
I feel, actually, that Tolkien has failed to create a mythology for the English because people WILL insist on us sharing it with the Celts right down to Howard Shore's (albeit lovely) music with its (albeit wonderful) singers, Irish Enya and Scottish Annie Lennox. They've got their own mythologies. Hands off mine!
Firstly despite Tolkien expressing a dislike for the irrationality of celtic mythology, it influenced his work, particularly in inspiring the elves. He also loved the Welsh language and this played an important role is his creation of elvish. So whilst these influences are certainly secondary to anglo-saxon and norse influences, they are there! Personally I also find the melancholy tone of his works, of a golden age passing, a rather celtic aesthetic.
Secondly the more you dig into the meanings of 'anglo-saxon', 'celtic' 'english' 'Scottish' etc the more muddled up they become. The Norse invaders also ruled the Scottish islands and founded Dublin. Before the Anglo-Saxons arrived, Welsh was spoken across much of England and in southern Scotland. The key signature artistic style of the celts, the interlace pattern, is also the key signature style of anglo-saxon art...
Personally I feel Tolkien succeeded in creating a mythology for England precisely because he wove the many mythologies that have influenced England together to create something new and wonderful, with universal themes. That's not to say I appreciate Enya showing up in LotR (pop music is best left out of such films) but I don't think a blanket ban on anything vaguely celtic is the right call either.
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burrahobbit
Nargothrond
Feb 10 2012, 12:39am
Post #102 of 176
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I'm not too pleased with this casting news either. It's not because Billy Connelly is a bad straight actor (he's good in Mrs Brown, Last Samurai). It's just the number of roles given to household UK names is really building up. We've got Steven Fry, Martin Freeman, James Nesbit, Ken Stott... I've seen all these actors in so many roles in TV and film that it's inevitably going to lessen the enjoyment a bit for me. People like Fry and Connelly are such huge recognisable characters that they are always themselves first, and the role second.
I'd have much preferred the LotR of approach of going for less well known talented actors for most of the parts. Well, hopefully The Hobbit films will prove me wrong...
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Feb 10 2012, 1:41am
Post #103 of 176
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For people to spell my name right? Particularly when someone is "apologizing" I would think they would make a point to get it right. In any event your response just goes on to reinforce the point that I was questioning, so it is obvious there will be no meeting of the minds here. Suffice it to say that some people pay attention more than you think they do.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
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Thorins_apprentice
Nargothrond
Feb 10 2012, 1:53am
Post #104 of 176
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That it would have felt the same for The american and Australian audience with the lotr trilogy.So now it;s the brits turn.How do you imagine the new zealanders would feel as well.
Eowyn-Miranda Otto -Australian`
Eomer-Karl Urban- New zealander.
Frodo-Elijah Wood - American
Sam-Sean Astin -AMerican
Galadriel-Cate Blanchett -Australian
Elrond-Hugo Weaving -Australian.
Merry-Dominic Monaghaun - Irish/scottish
Pippin-Billy Boyd -Irish/Scottish
Gandalf-Ian Mckellen -British
Bilbo-Ian Holm Bristish
Gimli-John Rhys Davies -American
Legolas-Orlando Bloom -British
Boromir-Sean Bean -British
Aragorn-Viggo Mortenson-Part Danish/American
Arwen-Liv Tyler-AMerican
Theoden-Bernard Hill- British
Wormtongue-Brad Douriff- American
Denethor-John Noble-Australian
Haldir -(unkown actor)-New zealander.
Saruman-Christopher Lee-British
David Wenham-Australian
So judging by the list it is predominately American and Australian actors.with some nz.
So in conclusion it looks as though this years list is pretty simialr in nature and therefore a fair casting call in my opinion.
We are more connected than ever before, more able to spread our ideas and beliefs, our anger and fears. As we exercise the right to advocate our views, and as we animate our supporters, we must all assume responsibility for our words and actions before they enter a vast echo chamber and reach those both serious and delirious, connected and unhinged.
(This post was edited by Thorins_apprentice on Feb 10 2012, 2:00am)
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duats
Hithlum
Feb 10 2012, 3:15am
Post #105 of 176
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John Rhys-Davies isn't American
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He was born and raised in Wales.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
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Feb 10 2012, 3:21am
Post #106 of 176
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FWIW, that 'unknown actor' is Craig Parker
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who had quite a profile in NZ before the films. Still, the only actor to pull me out of the movie for a second was John Leigh (Hama) - for all the other Kiwi actors it was "Celeborn! *squee* Haldir! *squee*."
Everyone's mileage is different, though.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Feb 10 2012, 8:34am
Post #108 of 176
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Craig being relegated to 'unknown actor'. *shakes head*
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QuackingTroll
Doriath
Feb 10 2012, 10:50am
Post #109 of 176
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Well I'm worried by this quote...
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"So far what we've filmed is more comic than heavy. I keep asking Pete "When are we going heavy?" He assures me it's coming..."
This was in the Total Film Magazine and it implies to me that Bilbo's story won't turn serious until elves and men turn up. I.E. The dwarves are all going to be, like Gimli, there for comic relief. I don't like the idea of a whole race being a joke, so I'll just hope I'm wrong for now... 
"...For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomed at the foundations of the Earth"
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Thorins_apprentice
Nargothrond
Feb 10 2012, 11:08am
Post #110 of 176
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With the casting of Richie armitage,It goes without saying,
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That there will be Grittiness in the Dwarves.Quint alrady described Thorin as havinga steely conviction.
We are more connected than ever before, more able to spread our ideas and beliefs, our anger and fears. As we exercise the right to advocate our views, and as we animate our supporters, we must all assume responsibility for our words and actions before they enter a vast echo chamber and reach those both serious and delirious, connected and unhinged.
(This post was edited by Thorins_apprentice on Feb 10 2012, 11:12am)
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ShireHorse
Nargothrond
Feb 10 2012, 11:41am
Post #111 of 176
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And also sorry that I can't do umlauts when I spell your name. Since all my attempts at explaining myself are only met by aggression and rudeness from you, then, no, I don't think we have a meeting of minds here.
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ShireHorse
Nargothrond
Feb 10 2012, 12:00pm
Post #112 of 176
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Yes, I know I sound a little extreme, burrahobbit,
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and I agree that things are perhaps more complicated than I am making them. And I WAS being a little tongue-in-cheek with my "hands off" comment. But do you mind if I just say a few things about Welsh? When the Romans invaded "England", they found tribal groups known as Britons who spoke a language called "British". When the Anglo-Saxons invaded, they either integrated or drove the Britons westwards into Wales and Cornwall. Both Welsh and Cornish stem from this ancient British tongue which also has quite a lot of Latin mixed in with it. Since Tolkien is basing his mythology on the inhabitants/settlers of the area known today as England, he would include in that group the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Norsemen and Romano-British. This explains his interest in Welsh as being a survivor of that language that had been spoken in England by British tribes, not because he was interested in Welsh mythology. As an aside, I've often wondered (and I've read nothing on this) if the Elves don't represent the original British tribes who went "into the West" (of the British Isles) when things got tough.
I do, at the end of the day, go with the flow once the films come out. I stop nitpicking and accept them for what they are. I love LotR and I'm just very grateful that PJ has brought the works of Tolkien to the world.
(This post was edited by ShireHorse on Feb 10 2012, 12:08pm)
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Thorins_apprentice
Nargothrond
Feb 10 2012, 12:48pm
Post #113 of 176
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOvI9jdNV3I
The Verdict is up.Mr Connely will make a wonderful Dain Ironfoot.
By the way the emotion driven in that Mrs Brown clip was truly gratifying.I was feeling for Connely character then.
We are more connected than ever before, more able to spread our ideas and beliefs, our anger and fears. As we exercise the right to advocate our views, and as we animate our supporters, we must all assume responsibility for our words and actions before they enter a vast echo chamber and reach those both serious and delirious, connected and unhinged.
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Thorins_apprentice
Nargothrond
Feb 10 2012, 1:04pm
Post #114 of 176
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For those who want the full movie from part 1.
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http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related part 1 I'm Talking about that excerpt that Shelobs_appetite Posted.
The other parts will show up on the right sidescroll.
Her Majesty,Mrs Brown 1997. here you can see Bill Connely do serious.And he is superb.
We are more connected than ever before, more able to spread our ideas and beliefs, our anger and fears. As we exercise the right to advocate our views, and as we animate our supporters, we must all assume responsibility for our words and actions before they enter a vast echo chamber and reach those both serious and delirious, connected and unhinged.
(This post was edited by Thorins_apprentice on Feb 10 2012, 1:08pm)
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Thorins_apprentice
Nargothrond
Feb 10 2012, 1:22pm
Post #115 of 176
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Thorin Oakenshield and Dain Ironfoot are cousins and Both North and South (Richard Armitage) and Her Majesty,Mrs Brown(Bill connely) are set in the same Era/Time period.The Victorian era of England
Well at least that;s the way i like to look at it.I;m sure Peter Jackson would have spotted this small detail out as well.
We are more connected than ever before, more able to spread our ideas and beliefs, our anger and fears. As we exercise the right to advocate our views, and as we animate our supporters, we must all assume responsibility for our words and actions before they enter a vast echo chamber and reach those both serious and delirious, connected and unhinged.
(This post was edited by Thorins_apprentice on Feb 10 2012, 1:24pm)
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burrahobbit
Nargothrond
Feb 10 2012, 7:40pm
Post #116 of 176
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I like the elves- ancient Britain's connection idea, but...
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Tolkien was simplify far more openminded that you give him credit for. He was interested in Welsh because he thought it was beautiful, and said so, same with Finnish and the Icelandic sagas. To Tolkien language was a fundamental expression of culture and history, so your idea that he was interested in Welsh language but not Welsh mythology just doesn't stack up. Tolkien certainly drew on celtic mythology (particularly Irish), amongst many other sources, in the Silmarillion.
That's not to say Tolkien wasn't very passionate about England and Englishness. He was simplify aware of the universal connections in mythology, and drew on many sources for his works. They are all the better for that.
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ShireHorse
Nargothrond
Feb 10 2012, 8:51pm
Post #117 of 176
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Fair enough, burrahobbit, LOL!
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You explain your position very well. I'm just being a bit stubborn in my little corner and arguing for the sake of arguing perhaps.
I've travelled through Finland on a number of occasions and it's the only country where I have felt unable to communicate because the language is like nothing else I've ever come across. It was quite scary in rural areas where no-one spoke anything except Finnish. We would go into restaurants and stand there with our mouths open, not able to understand a single thing on the menu. Even in Russia, providing you could read Cyrillic, you could pick out things like "bif-steyk". We would just point and hope we had ordered something more than a glass of water. I'm not surprised that Finnish fascinated Tolkien so much, particularly when he wanted to produce an "alien" language.
I've read the Icelandic sagas and myths like The Doom of the Gods in their original Old Norse, These are wonderful too but the Norsemen would have brought them with them when they settled in England so that they became part of English culture. A recent holiday in Iceland was the best ever! I felt really at home there. Even the humour was very much the same and it was like meeting up with long-lost relatives, LOL!.
Yes, I understand that it's complicated, but I'm only going on what Tolkien said himself. (Sorry, can't find the reference.)
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Feb 10 2012, 9:02pm
Post #118 of 176
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that the book stays very light and "adventury" in its tone regarding both the dwarves and the quest, right up until the siege of the Lonely Mountain and the Bof5A where it takes a sudden turn for the serious and sombre, with the death of main characters and plenty of "heavy" drama. From what we've heard, Laketown and the Bof5A are going to be filmed in the upcoming block. So it seems entirely possible to me that the heavy stuff is still to come. Nobody's died yet, but they're about to.
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Feb 10 2012, 9:04pm
Post #119 of 176
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I've travelled through Finland on a number of occasions and it's the only country where I have felt unable to communicate because the language is like nothing else I've ever come across. It was quite scary in rural areas where no-one spoke anything except Finnish. We would go into restaurants and stand there with our mouths open, not able to understand a single thing on the menu. Even in Russia, providing you could read Cyrillic, you could pick out things like "bif-steyk". We would just point and hope we had ordered something more than a glass of water. I'm not surprised that Finnish fascinated Tolkien so much, particularly when he wanted to produce an "alien" language. I completely have to disagree with you my friend about the people being hard to communicate, only by the fact that we have had very different experiences of Finland. Like you, I have been to Finland several times. The majority of the time it has been for skiing, and so was staying in a hotel. Despite that, I found the people working their (who didn't speak English) to be very accomodating. I also spent a couple of weeks in the Northernmost part of Finland, with the indigenous Sami community. I couldn't speak a word of Finnish, let alone Sami, and they couldn't speak a word of English. They were the most friendly people I have met and felt very safe there on my own (even when I was stranded in Northern Norway and had to hitch-hike back to Finland!!). Yet it wasn't hard at all to communicate despite the language barrier. It goes back to basic communication. Even though you can't actually talk to them, you still found a common ground of communicating. Communication doesn't just involve speech.
But I do agree with you to why Tolkien would have found it fascinating.
Where in Finland did you go to?
(This post was edited by DanielLB on Feb 10 2012, 9:06pm)
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Feb 10 2012, 9:09pm
Post #120 of 176
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The Last Samurai has just started on Channel 5 and features Billy Connolly.
May be a good oppurtunity to see his acting abilities!
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ShireHorse
Nargothrond
Feb 10 2012, 10:12pm
Post #121 of 176
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I didn't say the Finns weren't friendly -
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I just had this rather strange feeling of being in an alien environment because I'm used to understanding at least a bit of the language of a country I'm visiting. I usually teach myself some vocabulary before I go, but in this case I didn't because we were coming from Moscow and English-Finnish language books weren't available. We travelled through Finland on a couple of occasions when we were working in Moscow. We stayed in Helsinki which is a beautiful little city and we were OK there because some English was spoken. Then we decided that it would be nice to hire a log cabin in the middle of nowhere next to a lake and that's when we had trouble en route trying to find something to eat and when we arrived at the cabin and had to communicate with the owner. We obviously did a lot of hand waving and nodding and smiling but with little progress. It was just the weirdest feeling because I had never been in such a situation before, not even in Russia.
Finnish is like no other European language, I believe, and is classified as being a level 3 (out of 4) in difficulty, LOL. So that explains things! I bet the dear professor saw it as a fascinating challenge.
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Feb 10 2012, 10:29pm
Post #123 of 176
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in reply to:
"I love LotR and I'm just very grateful that PJ has brought the works of Tolkien to the world. "
It was JRR Tolkien (and latterly his son Christopher) who brought Tolkien's works to the world.
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Feb 10 2012, 10:30pm
Post #124 of 176
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My favourite Finnish words are Paksu and Valkotukka//
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ShireHorse
Nargothrond
Feb 10 2012, 10:39pm
Post #125 of 176
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OK, Geordie, I'll rephrase that.
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Tolkien brought his books to me and some of my mates; PJ, by turning these books into films, spread Tolkien to an even wider public who went on to read his books. Tolkien, his son and PJ between them have formed a good team.
And now, geordie, you must say, since I've admitted to knowing no Finnish: are you going to tell us what those words mean or do you just like the sound of them and have no idea what they're all about?
(This post was edited by ShireHorse on Feb 10 2012, 10:42pm)
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). I didn't mean to imply you though the Finns were unfriendly 
