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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jan 26 2012, 6:12am
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connections, parallels, and other fun details
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I thought it'd be fun to talk about some of the little connections/parallels/details throughout the movies that you've noticed.
I just noticed these first two recently:
-Frodo wears blue during his first and and final scenes, rather than the browns and greens he wears the rest of the time. Maybe a hint of his connection to the sea?
-Frodo and Gandalf stare at each other for a moment before they burst out laughing when they're first seen together in the movie, and when Frodo sees Gandalf for the first time as Gandalf the White.
-Frodo pulls Sam out of the river at the end of FotR, and Sam pulls Frodo from the brink of the Crack of Doom at the end of RotK.
I think that last one is pretty obvious, but it took me a few years to even notice it.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jan 26 2012, 10:20am
Post #2 of 34
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Good idea, I'll have to have a think
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-Frodo pulls Sam out of the river at the end of FotR, and Sam pulls Frodo from the brink of the Crack of Doom at the end of RotK. I think that last one is pretty obvious, but it took me a few years to even notice it.
I don't think it is pretty obsvious. I only realised this parallel when I read it somewhere (maybe an essay or something, can't remember now) a couple of years ago. However, whenever I watch this particular scene I always forget. You get so caught up in the moment and the shock of Frodo hanging on for dear life, that any themes go out the window!
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Magpie
Immortal
Jan 26 2012, 2:42pm
Post #3 of 34
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I have a pretty long list of this sort of thing
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plus, there's gramma's geeky observation list which I think you can find a link for in her footer.
I called my list 'foreshadowing and echoing'. It started a conversation among the people I was hanging with at the time so it's in conversation form. But I might be able to add a few at a time. I definitely need to use advanced editor and I'm in Chrome now which doesn't have advanced editor. So I'll add some after work and over the weekend. Here are two to start:
--When Déagol opens his hand to display the Ring in the mud. This is an echo of Bilbo opening his hand full of mud and Ring in the Misty Mountain.
--The fight between Sméagol and Déagol is echoed later by the fight between Gollum and Frodo in Shelob's cave. In both cases each is fighting the other over possession of the Ring and choking is involved. In the first fight, Sméagol kills Déagol. In the second, Gollum begs mercy and Frodo gives it.
LOTR soundtrack website
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 26 2012, 2:53pm
Post #4 of 34
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-Frodo pulls Sam out of the river at the end of FotR, and Sam pulls Frodo from the brink of the Crack of Doom at the end of RotK.
And Gollum pulls Frodo out of the Dead Marshes.
******************************************
From IMDB trivia:
"A scene was cut from the finished film that showed Eowyn (Miranda Otto) stripping away her regular clothes and then dressing herself in the armor of a Rohan warrior."
*Darkstone bangs head against wall*
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Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell
Jan 26 2012, 7:28pm
Post #5 of 34
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I love working through these little connections, both in the movies and the book. Personally, I am drawn to the musical connections in the films that tie different parts of the story together.
One of my favorites happens near the end of TTT. When Treebeard decides to go to war and to lead the Ents to Isengard, and when Theoden decides to ride out with Aragorn and the Rohirrim, the same musical theme plays, officially called "Nature's Reclamation." Once I recognized that, and started to think about why that theme would attach itself to Theoden, I realized that there were several Theoden-Treebeard connections up to and including that scene. Can you think of three?
My absolute favorite set of musical connections centers around Aragorn and his journey toward kingship. There is completely different music for the lighting of the beacons and the presentation of Anduril, but the two scenes are closely connected with each other, and they are each musically and thematically connected to scenes in FOTR and the coronation scene. How many tie-ins can you find for all of these?
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Xanaseb
Tol Eressea
Jan 27 2012, 12:48am
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Wow, I had never thought of that :)
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Great indeed :)
I didnt realise the pulling out of the Crack/river thing either
"I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama"
___________
Let us then continue Tolkien's Legendarium!
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Magpie
Immortal
Jan 27 2012, 1:03am
Post #8 of 34
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Gollum with a worm in the TTT EE version (at Dead Marshes?) and Sméagol with a worm at the beginning of ROTK. I do think the worm is meant to evoke Gollum to the non-book viewer.
Frodo with Sting to Gollum's throat at the beginning of TTT and Frodo with Sting to Sam's throat at the end of TTT. (An indication of the swing of sympathies/hostilities that we will see develop in ROTK?)
In TTT, when Aragorn returns from the dead... Legolas gives him back the 'Evenstar' necklace and Aragorn says, 'Hallon le' - 'Thank you'. In FOTR, at the coronation, Aragorn tells Legolas, 'Hallon le' and it may be my imagination, but it seems to me that Legolas - with a look - directs Aragorn's gaze toward the other Elves... and there is the 'Evenstar' in person.
LOTR soundtrack website
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BallyWhooo
Bree
Jan 27 2012, 1:38am
Post #9 of 34
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Galadriel's mistatement to Frodo may have only been meant to encourage Frodo's to make the hard decisions, but if she really meant that It would eventually corrupt even Sam, (though just a scene before she looks directly at Sam and says, "Yet hope remains while the Company is true.") it just goes to prove that Gandalf the Grey was truly wise, because he states, "Even the very wise cannot see all ends," and in the movie at least Galadriel doesn't seem to doubt her ability to predict the future. She states that she knows what Frodo saw in the Mirror and then certifies that the events depicted there "are what will happen should you fail." Of course, she was dead on for THAT one!"
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Earl
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 27 2012, 6:49am
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I too noticed Legolas' eyes giving Aragorn an indication to look behind him at the host of Elves 
The Plan 9 Interview... in celebration of the 10th anniversary of the release of The Fellowship of the Ring.
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Rostron2
Gondor
Jan 27 2012, 10:55pm
Post #12 of 34
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If any fans didn't like some of PJ's work on the films, they get revenge, since his third character in LOTR gets shot with an arrow!!!
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eralkfang
Lorien
Jan 27 2012, 11:02pm
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In The Return of the King, Éowyn tells Aragorn her dream, which was taken from Faramir, who had it in the novel, and given to her in the films. It's my favorite detail because I like the idea of connecting the two together across space with this, which is a bonus for fans of the books. I like to think that in the films, they both have this dream.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jan 27 2012, 11:32pm
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Yes, Gollum saves Frodo and Frodo repays the favor by...
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....well, we know he must have given a little nudge to Gollum helping him lose balance and fall into the Crack of Doom...even if accidental.... ;)
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Xanaseb
Tol Eressea
Jan 28 2012, 12:33am
Post #15 of 34
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One tiny thing I noticed was that at the crack of doom scene, when he is wrestling with Gollum and before that,
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he is wearing the same (practically) lederhosen thing as he was in his first scene ever.
A dark transition IMO, that says many things.
"I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama"
___________
Let us then continue Tolkien's Legendarium!
(This post was edited by Xanaseb on Jan 28 2012, 12:33am)
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willowing
Lorien
Jan 28 2012, 9:34am
Post #16 of 34
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Shelob's lair wrestling for the ring, Gollum then goes over the brink
Inside Mount Doom Gollum and Frodo wrestling for the ring Gollum goes over the brink.
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tennie75
Lorien
Jan 28 2012, 9:24pm
Post #17 of 34
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Of Legolas giving the Evenstar to Aragorn and then presenting The Evenstar - Arwen at the coronation.
I will have to think about some because I know I have noticed some before.
******************************************
Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.
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Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell
Jan 29 2012, 10:46pm
Post #18 of 34
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...it's too good to let go.
The lighting of the beacons is really Gandalf delivering a message in flame to Aragorn.
The presentation of Anduril is Elrond, as messenger, delivering the Flame of the West to Aragorn.
As the second beacon lights, Gandalf says "Hope is kindled!"
As Aragorn takes up the sword, Elrond says "[I bring hope to Men!]"
The musical theme at the center of the beacons scene is the primary Gondor theme that originates in FOTR, as Boromir speaks about the military struggle of his people. After it plays during the beacons, Aragorn takes up the call to bring military aid to Gondor. (The theme's name is "The Realm of Gondor.")
The theme associated with Anduril originates in FOTR when Boromir speaks of his desire to see the glory of Gondor restored. It plays again as Aragorn fully accepts his kingship and undertakes that restoration, essentially. (This theme is called "Minas Tirith" or "Silver Trumpets.")
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Magpie
Immortal
Jan 30 2012, 3:04pm
Post #19 of 34
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These (indented) observations are from Ilyanne (one of the members of my early fellowship in Tolkien groups):
When Frodo panics because he has lost Gollum in Shelob's lair, you hear Gollum sing "why do you cry?" just as he did to himself when he is captured and beaten by Faramir's men in TT.
Shelob can be seen as payback for what happened in Henneth Annun. Frodo asked it of himself... then, as he is enacting payback, asks it of Frodo.
Gollum also talks about weeping in "Gollum's Song". First he says, 'We will weep to be so alone." Then he says, "You will weep when you face the end alone."
On the stairs of Cirith Ungol, Frodo is struggling to get over a ledge and Gollum sees the ring. As he reaches for Frodo, Sam tells Gollum "Don't you touch him!". This compares to Éowyn's order to the Witch King "You will not touch him!" when Théoden is crushed under Snowmane during the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.
During Théoden's death scene, he opens his eyes to find Éowyn and says "I know your face." just as he does in TT when Gandalf delivers Théoden from Saruman's spell.
After rescuing Frodo from the Orcs, Sam and Frodo find the plain between themselves and Mt. Doom covered with Orcs. Sam urges Frodo on into Mordor just as Frodo urged Sam on in the cornfield in FOTR.
Gollum bit Sam during their first fight in TT and he bites him again on the neck in their final fight in ROTK.
In ROTK, Aragorn tells the dead army to "Be at peace" when he releases them, just as he told Boromir the same in FOTR. Both Boromir and the dead regained their honor by fighting for the cause of good.
LOTR soundtrack website
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Magpie
Immortal
Jan 30 2012, 3:14pm
Post #20 of 34
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the taste of bread - voices before vision - backing into a doorway - apples - & more
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When Sméagol is transforming into Gollum, he says (something like): "We forgot the taste of bread, the sound of wind, even my own name."
Frodo says something very similar just before the final climb to Mt. Doom. The text is in the book... I'm not sure how close it is to the movie dialog but they are often the same. Here's what it says in the book: "No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me." In the movie I think he goes says something about grass, but not the rest after that.
When Gandalf first goes to Isengard, and approaches Orthanc, we hear Saruman's voice before we see him. The same thing happens in ROTK when Gandalf approached Orthanc with Treebeard's voice. We hear it before we see him. I always noted that point in FOTR for some reason.
When the Nazgul arrive at Farmer Maggot, one of his hounds backs into the house - never taking his eyes off the Ringwraith. When the Ents are trashing Isengard, Saruman does the same thing.
There's a scene in TTT EE DVD when Pippin picks up a floating apple (in Isengard) and then looks up... wondering if it fell from the sky. Not quite an echo, just a humorous moment reference to the apple from the sky FOTR scene.
In the prologue of FOTR, there's a shot of Gil-Galad thrusting downward with his spear, Aiglos.
In ROTK, there's a shot of that lumpy headed Orc captain, thrusting a spear down into Faramir's captain (Madril, I think).
They struck me as similar. The Orc captain says, "The age of men is over. The time of the Orc has come." I suppose you could make a comparison that the Battle of Dagorlad (from the prologue) was a battle where the Free Peoples achieved supremacy over the forces of the Shadow, and this Orc is predicting that this battle will start the turn of the tide back to supremacy of the Shadow over Men.
Sméagol tearing at the rabbits -TTT- and the fish -ROTK
Both talking about Arwen...
Éowyn asks Aragorn: "Where is she?" (The woman who gave you that necklace) -
Frodo asks Aragorn: "Who is she?" (As Aragorn sings in the Marshes)
LOTR soundtrack website
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Magpie
Immortal
Jan 30 2012, 3:28pm
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There's a pub scene in FOTR EE before the journey starts and another towards the end of ROTK when the journey is over. Both times Rosie says to other male Hobbits, "Goodnight Lads". In FOTR, a gentlemen Hobbit is paying some attention to Rosie which irritates Sam but he doesn't do anything about it. In ROTK, when he hears, "Goodnight Lads" (meaning Rosie is noticing other gents) Sam gets up and does something.
from squiggly_girl: Gandalf tells Denethor "There will be a time to grieve for Boromir, but it is not now." Later at the Black Gate, Aragorn tells his men "A day may come, when the courage of men fails, ... but it is not this day" And of course, the contrast between the subsequent actions in both cases couldn't be more marked.
again, from squiggly_girl: in the Two Towers, when Théoden grasps his sword for the first time after his "unveiling", the camera passes from a right to left perspective, so that his face simultaneously moves from being on the right to the left hand side of the upraised sword. The key thing is the change in his expression as he does this - from something like a "where am I?" to "where is that conniving Wormtongue?". This is echoed in ROTK, when the Rohirrim are on the Pelennor fields, just after we see the oliphaunts approaching. As the camera perspective sweeps the sword across his face, his expression changes from "is this all you have to throw at us?" to "oh crap, it's the Mumakil!"
more from squiggly)girl: When Gollum falls into blackness through the deeps of a crevice, and then reappears on the slopes of Mt Doom transformed into an even madder version of himself, it resembled a negative echo of Gandalf's fall.
and Hilary added: When Gandalf fell in Moria, he fell facing downward...Gollum fell backward facing up.
more from Hilary: When Frodo is entering Shelob's lair, and realizing that something's not quite right there, he looks down, and sees that he's stepping on a lot of old bones...this echoed the Fellowship entering Moria, and realizing it wasn't "a mine...it's a tomb", as the Hobbits realize they are treading on a lot of dead dwarves.
LOTR soundtrack website
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Magpie
Immortal
Jan 30 2012, 3:34pm
Post #22 of 34
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last posting before I put this folder away. :-)
Ilyanne started this, I added a thought, it got posted here and Menelwyn added more thoughts. Below is a conglomerate of all of those comments.
When Sam finds Frodo in the Cracks of Doom, he yells to him to destroy the Ring, just as Elrond yelled the same to Isildur in the FOTR scene. When Frodo claims the Ring for himself, he looks up with the same smile that Isildur has in the same scene in FOTR. (This had stood out to me the first time that I saw ROTK, but I could not pinpoint where I had seen that same expression before today!)
There's even certain parallels in the dialogue--Sam's "Throw it in the fire!" matches Elrond's "Cast it into the fire!" with appropriate changes for the different style of speech of the characters.
Frodo and Isildur consider what to do with the Ring
and while we're looking at this comparison.. how about this one:
Frodo's first and last gaze at the Ring
LOTR soundtrack website
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Delrond
Rohan
Jan 30 2012, 4:16pm
Post #23 of 34
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that Aragorn was singing the Lay of Luthien in the Marshes. I'll have to go back and watch, it't been a while.
Both talking about Arwen...
Éowyn asks Aragorn: "Where is she?" (The woman who gave you that necklace) -
Frodo asks Aragorn: "Who is she?" (As Aragorn sings in the Marshes)
Thank you for all of your posts on this topic, I have enjoyed reading all of them.
A few harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction.
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Magpie
Immortal
Jan 30 2012, 4:28pm
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but ... even though Frodo does ask who the woman is in the song... I think he senses there's a person on Aragorn's mind and the song is just a connection to that person. Really.. the 'woman' is Arwen.. not Luthien that is present in this scene. at least.. imo. :-)
Keep in mind, I wrote that within days of seeing the movie for the first time and didn't edit any of this for reposting. So I might have phrased it a little differently if I had edited and updated it. But I would still include it.
LOTR soundtrack website
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Delrond
Rohan
Jan 30 2012, 4:41pm
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viewing the scene in this light, Frodo's question could be addressing both. If Aragorn has answered either way, it would have made sense to me. I think your ability to pull that together after watching it the first time is stellar. I was totally mesmerized by the film experience and had to watch it again to start filling in some of the details, a process that continues...
A few harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction.
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