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Pallando
Menegroth
Sep 10 2007, 7:40pm
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CoH - Chapter XVI & XVII
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Chapter XVI - XVII
THE COMING of GLAURUNG
THE DEATH of GLAURUNG
This week's discussion will concern what some consider the climax of the story, the coming to Brethil of the fire-worm Glaurung and his death.
INTRODUCTION to the WEEK - (A LITTLE OFF-TOPIC)
I've noticed that participation in these discussions has slacked off in comparison both to other discussions and indeed from the earlier chapters of this book, Children of Hurin. Some have said to me that "Summer is a slow time" and that is true enough.
But I think there is more at play here. In looking at earlier CoH and other discussions it seems a ToRN truism that the more complex the questions, the better the post. While that may be true were we all to have the knowledge base of, say, Curious or Squire, there are many who folks who are new to Tolkien and may have never seen Unfinished Tales or the Silmarillion let alone HoME, (thirteen or so volumes that follow Tolkien's every lifetime penstroke). In other words, it's not unusual to see names in "Who's Online" that I have never seen in a post. I suspect that they are Tolkien fans but have as their only experience the Lord of the Rings and may be a little too shy to speak, especially with the great ones expounding.
AND ALSO
Some discussion leaders - myself included - have also been under a false-minded sense that, more questions are better as well. Perhaps sometimes true - but a brief and unscientific scan of those discussion posts with only a few responses typically yields lots of questions. Add that to the complexity, and all but a few can put together a cohesive and complete response in less than a few hours, unless they have studied Tolkien for a long while. And though a few have databases of the books with which to scan-cut-and-paste to make this job easier, it appears that most folks after fifteen chapters or so and the first days of Autumn outside are tired of spending their entire afternoons or evenings answering posts.
SO...
... in the hopes of drawing early into the discussion those who might only have read Lord of the Rings - or even just seen Jackson's film, I will try to include one or two questions for folks of this background (and everyone else too, please - segregation by experience is NOT intended).
I will try to limit my questions to just a few, and the most germane - but open-ended so that while the focus might be on only several points, it can perhaps be with more rigor. It is intended the questions will increase in complexity as they are presented.
_______________________
THE COMING of GLAURUNG
On the first page of Chapter XVI, we see an allusion to a few of the key points seen in Lord of the Rings.
1. Question: How does Morgoth's desire parallel Sauron's? Who might Glaurung represent (metaphorically) in LotR?
On the third page of the chapter is a painting some may call a bit impressionistic.
2. Question: What do you think artist Alan Lee is trying to show - literally and symbolically? Are there subtle aspects of the painting you found in the text? Do you think it is impressionistic or a literal rendition of what happens in the chapter? (One question, several parts!)
It is obvious that Turin Turambar, the Master of Doom, believes that since he has seen and mentally jousted with the Great Worm, that he knows him well enough to predict his very thought and action. We see that at least this might appear to be so.
3. Question: Do you think Turin is able to logically put the pieces together and indeed predict the actions of the Worm, or was it only by chance that Glaurung behaved as Turin predicted.
In the last paragraph of the chapter Brandir scolded his people and said that because they did not listen to him they should take another leader; then he broke his staff.
4. Question: Is Brandir's behavior simple petulance at being undermined by a stronger and in this case a man more knowledgeable at what to do next', or does he have a genuine grievance at his people for not listening to him in this instance?
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P.
__________________________________________
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?
(This post was edited by Pallando on Sep 10 2007, 7:40pm)
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Pallando
Menegroth
Sep 11 2007, 6:52am
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both have the bad habit of wanting to dominate every free soul in Middle Earth. In both CoH and LR, the obvious is Elves and Men (and Hobbits) but would soon, if they were not defeated, would likely overcome Ents, Tom B maybe, but maybe not too, depending who he really is (he was presumably around during Turin's time) and any other free-thinking soul I may have forgotten.
Glauring could be have a few Third Age metaphorical relations. Ungoliant comes to mind, but of course she's an independent in this game and doesn't "belong" to Sauron as Glaurung to Morgoth. We also have the Witch King, but he's not a fire-breathing slug. However, the Nazgul, together with their carrion fowl they both stink and induce fear in anyone near. The Witch King has instead of fire, his terrorizing wail, which, while fearsome, doesn't burn everything around. Balrogs may also come to mind but they were a product of Morgoth's day in the first place. Sauron also had his hideous cave-troll-like monster-men, but again, they were dumb as rocks as opposed to the Great Worm who was of a devious sort. So it looks like nothing could be an exact metaphorical match, but considering the key elements, I would have to say the Witch King is closest.
___________________
For I also am a steward.
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Curious
Gondolin
Sep 11 2007, 4:17pm
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1. Question: How does Morgoth's desire parallel Sauron's? Who might Glaurung represent (metaphorically) in LotR?
I'm sure Sauron left no enemies in the lands he conquered during the Second Age. In the Third Age he never had the opportunity to root out insurgents from conquered lands, because he never conquered new lands. As for Glaurung, he is very much like the Witch-king during the siege of Minas Tirith, when Sauron had vested him with his authority, and the Witch-king seemed to channel Sauron's power.
2. Question: What do you think artist Alan Lee is trying to show - literally and symbolically? Are there subtle aspects of the painting you found in the text? Do you think it is impressionistic or a literal rendition of what happens in the chapter? (One question, several parts!)
Lee shows what the text describes, Glaurung burning a path more or less in a straight line between Nargothrond and Brethil. I don't detect any symbolism in the painting. However the painting is impressionistic, rather than photorealistic, although it is also a literal rendition of what happens in the chapter.
3. Question: Do you think Turin is able to logically put the pieces together and indeed predict the actions of the Worm, or was it only by chance that Glaurung behaved as Turin predicted.
Turin's logic is impeccable. Glaurung marked his path for him. My question is why Glaurung marked his path in this manner. Was he challenging Turin to come meet him? Was he so confident that he did not care? Did he fail to recognize the risk to his vulnerable underbelly? Or was Morgoth actually willing to expose Glaurung in order to fulfill his curse upon Hurin's children? We never find out the answer, but to me it seems unlikely that Glaurung recognizes the risk, or that Morgoth was willing to sacrifice Glaurung. Instead I think they were overconfident, and so Glaurung simply took the straightest route without regard for stealth.
Turin raises the question of whether Glaurung is afraid of Finduilas's spirit at the crossroads, as the orcs seem to be. That could have entered into Glaurung's thinking, I suppose. Spirits are real in Middle-earth. But Glaurung also took the straighter route, I believe, and that may have been more important to him than avoiding the crossroads.
4. Question: Is Brandir's behavior simple petulance at being undermined by a stronger and in this case a man more knowledgeable at what to do next', or does he have a genuine grievance at his people for not listening to him in this instance?
Yes. Brandir's wisdom is undermined by his jealousy and resentment and insecurity. He's right, but he would rather be able to say "I told you so" later than genuinely attempt to befriend and persuade Turin or his people now. Indeed I think he hopes Turin will die, and holds his tongue because there is a very good chance Turin will die.
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Curious
Gondolin
Sep 11 2007, 6:22pm
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Regarding the lack of participation, I think we should blame Tolkien.
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We had exactly the same experience several years ago when we discussed Turin's tale in Unfinished Tales, when the movies were coming out and participation in TOR.n was at its peak. Reverend and I were the only regulars until NZ Strider joined in, and part of the reason we were regulars was that we were all new to the Reading Room. Boy were we in for a surprise when the discussion turned back to more popular material like LotR -- and so were the returning regulars who had skipped the discussion of UT.
Turin's tale just isn't that popular. So please, none of us should beat ourselves up over lack of participation. It has little if anything to do with the discussion leaders, and everything to do with the material we chose to discuss.
However, as you note, we do have numerous lurkers. So don't judge participation purely on the basis of how many people respond. Other people like to follow along without responding, and that's okay.
I do like the idea of trying to compare and contrast Turin's tale to LotR, though, since most of us are more interested in LotR. I also think limiting questions is worth a try, although we always explain that no one is required to answer all of the questions posed, or even to stick to the questions posed.
During my discussion I plan to summarize the plot. Many people don't have easy access to the text when they respond, and if we can't quote this "new" book extensively, we should be able to summarize what happens at length. But I seriously doubt whether participation will pick up just because I summarize the plot. It is what it is, and for better or for worse it will be over soon.
I will say that the chapters we are on now are my favorites. I wish Tolkien had started with them, and referenced Turin's mysterious and dark history in the course of telling us about his relationship with Nienor, and Nienor's slow recovery of her memory. Unfortunately he did not, and many people just can't get through all the chapters leading up to this dramatic and tragic conclusion.
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Pallando
Menegroth
Sep 11 2007, 8:31pm
Post #5 of 17
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for both your response to the post and subsequent perspective on participation. You're correct in inferring that my objective was in response to lack of participation, but your description of the back-story was enlightening.
I just can't figure out why someone wouldn't just want to say something about the books, or at least LR. I know there are a few good participants who brook no quarter, at least my quarter (occasionally) ([sic]) and possibly there is simple fear of embarassment.
Maybe a brave lurker could just tell us, either in a post or in a private message what the problem is, or maybe they just like to check things out.
[I was around then those days too, C (before my 2-yr hiatus) but I must not have made much of an impression  ]
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P.
___________________
For I also am a steward.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Sep 11 2007, 8:54pm
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the reason I find myself not participating is because I just can't find much interesting to say about CoH! There don't seem to be any good reasons for stuff to happen, and having to wonder time and time again whether something is caused by the "curse" or not just doesn't interest me. I guess there may be bigger themes that I'm missing, and maybe I simply need to read the book again a couple of times to see them. But I don't feel like reading the book again - as I said early on, the style is wearying, for me. I tried to pick the book up again a few days ago, thinking maybe I could get back into the discussion, but the first sentence I came to was one of those self-consciously archaic ones, and I put it back down again. I'm reading two very interesting modern novels at the moment - Atonement and The Blind Assassin - both with interesting ideas about the uses of stories and fantasy, and against them CoH just can't compete.
I think Curious' idea of summarizing the plot may help me - at least the summary will be in normal English! And it may help me see some of the bigger picture too. I guess we'll see when the time comes...
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Curious
Gondolin
Sep 11 2007, 9:21pm
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my impression was that for most people participation in the discussion of Unfinished Tales, and particularly Turin's tale, was extremely sporatic. In fact I reviewed some of that discussion before we began this discussion, and sometimes (it seemed like often) it was just Reverend and me.
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Wynnie
Nargothrond
Sep 12 2007, 2:14am
Post #8 of 17
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Some of us have fallen a bit behind, but are working our way through as time allows. We're taking advantage of the fact that on the new boards, threads never get locked. I'll get to your questions eventually, but hope to try some of Galadriel1a's from last week first.
I sit beside the fire and think
of all that I have seen,
of meadow-flowers and butterflies
in summers that have been
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Pallando
Menegroth
Sep 14 2007, 9:22pm
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Sorry, I don't think it's going to happen to these chapters, W.
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squire
Gondolin
Sep 15 2007, 4:01am
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He's headed straight for us!" "I wonder if that means he's headed straight for us?"
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On the first page of Chapter XVI, we see an allusion to a few of the key points seen in Lord of the Rings.
1. Question: How does Morgoth's desire parallel Sauron's? Who might Glaurung represent (metaphorically) in LotR?
I guess you mean the statement
for it was the purpose of Morgoth to subdue all Beleriand and to search out its every corner, so that none in any hole or hiding might live that were not thrall to him. (CoH, p. 221)
How does this parallel Sauron's "desire" in The Lord of the Rings? There are some statements that speak of Sauron's goals, though never in the voice of the omniscient narrator:
'The Enemy still lacks one thing to give him strength and knowledge to beat down all resistance, break the last defences, and cover all the lands in a second darkness.' (Gandalf, in FotR, I, 60)
'Only the waning might of Gondor stands now between him and a march in power along the coasts into the North; and if he comes...hereafter the Elves may have no escape...' (Galdor, in FotR, II, 280)
'The only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts.' (Gandalf, in FotR, II, 282)
'Don't take the Precious to Him! He'll eat us all, if He gets it, eat all the world." (Gollum, in TT, IV, 245)
What's interesting to me in reviewing these characterizations of Sauron vs. Morgoth, is that Sauron is treated both more realistically, and more symbolically.
Realistically, in that Sauron's threat to Middle-earth is that of armed forces, marching and conquering in all-powerful armies. Contrast this to Morgoth's odd reluctance to come forth from the North and over-run Brethil with his orc-armies -- instead he sends a single Dragon (a "dragon-king") from the opposite direction. Why? Nargothrond is twice as far from Brethil as Tol Sirion, and I can't for the life of me figure out who is opposing Morgoth at this point besides the Elves of Doriath, way off to the south and east.
Symbolically, in that Sauron is repeatedly described as wanting an abstract "power" , or casting a "shadow", over the world. Although he means to conquer the world by military force, the consequence feared by the Wise is his "darkness", the destruction of the spirit that will result. By contrast Morgoth is repeatedly referred to as wanting "thralls" (i.e., slaves) that will be under his rule. Morgoth seems to want the talk rather than the walk: he desires slaves in appearance and behavior; slaves such as a despotic King might own; slaves who, when released, still have a core of personality left. Examples are Gwindor and Hurin. With Sauron, one feels that a core of personality that survives after imprisonment is not an option.
As for Glaurung having a counterpart in LotR, good question.
Saruman is a tool of Sauron, but is hardly an incarnation of the Dark Lord's controlling spirit. Shelob is monstrous, but does not do Sauron's will except through a coincidence of malice. Smaug, a wicked Worm if ever there was one, never makes it to the big time (though Gandalf pays him the compliment in UT of suggesting that he and Sauron would have begun a beautiful friendship). The closest counterpart I can see is the Witch-King; but he has neither the personality nor the physical monstrosity that Glaurung does.
Could we make an argument that the Ring is LotR's Glaurung-device?
On the third page of the chapter is a painting some may call a bit impressionistic.
2. Question: What do you think artist Alan Lee is trying to show - literally and symbolically? Are there subtle aspects of the painting you found in the text? Do you think it is impressionistic or a literal rendition of what happens in the chapter? (One question, several parts!)
I like the painting. It is part two of the painting opposite p. 192 in Chapter XIII, in composition, point of view, and subject.
It is hardly literal, of course. Whatever a landscape blasted by fire looks like, that is not it: real fires burn out while spreading, giving the impression of fiery and smoking "edges" with blackness in between. Here we see something more like paths or rivers of lava in the wake of the dragon.
Lee does his best, and the result is fearsome and evocative of the text's intent.
I would ask, regarding Glaurung's approach: why take so long? As spring progresses, word comes that "there was a great burning far out in the woods of the plain towards Nargothrond". Spring turns toward summer, and we learn that Glaurung "turns not aside", having progressed in "a line that swerves not, but points straight to" Brethil. It seems to me that that time of the journey described is on the order of two months. The distance is not given in the Tolkien maps, but Fonstad offers her guess that it is about 80 miles from Nargothrond to the Teiglin (Atlas of Middle-earth, p. 12). The dragon only moves at night, we learn, and it is summer in the northern latitudes: allow six hours of travel time per night. That is forty hours per week to cover ten miles, for a net ground speed of .25 mph. (Compare with a man's walking speed of 3 mph.) What was Glaurung doing? Hunting would be my best guess, since some kind of food must power all that flame and muscularity; but he never wavers from his straight course, and no prey I can think of would stick around to be caught and eaten by a dragon moving at a snail's pace and preceded by forest fires.
I hate to make fun of Tolkien, but my conclusion is that this is yet another example of his weakness in this story for typical "effects". In this case, the effect desired is a "sense of menace" and "oncoming doom", etc. etc.
"The dragon is moving."
"Maybe he'll pass us by."
"No, we've seen him, he's horrible."
"He's making straight for us."
"He'll be here in several weeks!"
"So soon? We're doomed! Run!"
"Run for your lives!"
"AHHH!!!!"
"Urk!"
"Yikes!"
"Take that! and that! and that!"
*dragon expires with one last curse*
It is obvious that Turin Turambar, the Master of Doom, believes that since he has seen and mentally jousted with the Great Worm, that he knows him well enough to predict his very thought and action. We see that at least this might appear to be so.
3. Question: Do you think Turin is able to logically put the pieces together and indeed predict the actions of the Worm, or was it only by chance that Glaurung behaved as Turin predicted.
There actually is a good deal of intelligent and analytical thinking by Turin in this chapter. It's very refreshing! Could it be that marriage and impending fatherhood actually straightens out wayward and crazy men? Maybe Achilles should have married his sister... On the other hand, this only reinforces the impression that Turin's an egomaniacal twit for the better part of the book.
As to the dragon's movements. It's not clear why he heads for the gorges instead of the Crossings. He doesn't know the geography ahead of time (unless some orc scout told him, which would be cheating, cosmologically speaking), and it's not like we get some scene where Glaurung, baffled by the barrier of the river, actually turns and tries a second place for a crossing. So why does he head inexorably for the only place where he can cross - a place which likewise presents Turin and his team with their only chance to get below him for a clear shot at his belly? Some call it fate. I call it bald plot-mongering.
In the last paragraph of the chapter Brandir scolded his people and said that because they did not listen to him they should take another leader; then he broke his staff.
4. Question: Is Brandir's behavior simple petulance at being undermined by a stronger and in this case a man more knowledgeable at what to do next', or does he have a genuine grievance at his people for not listening to him in this instance?
The nice thing about this book is that no one is very nice. Brandir, who gets pity points for being lame, is not a very good Lord of his people nonetheless. Listen to what he says:
"'...all my counsel disdained!'" Sorry guy, a lord doesn't "counsel" his people, he leads them after taking others' counsel.
"'...already [Turin] has taken all my authority.'" You can't take what's not lying around on the table to be taken. A stronger lord would have cowed Turin, or had him killed in his sleep. Richard III of England was no physical specimen either, but he got his way, if you catch my drift.
"And he broke his staff." Nanny, nanny, boo-boo. It was childish petulance with Denethor, and it's childish petulance here.
"...it may well chance that even I could ward off some evil from [Niniel], if I were nigh." What's on your mind, Brandir? It may be transparent, but finally Tolkien's cooking with gas!
We might speculate on the "feminization" of the People of Haleth, given the wimpiness of their chieftain. On the other hand, this tribe is obviously Tolkien's favorite, given how much of Turin's tale centers around this odd little forest. Including Hurin's Act XXVIII stint that appears in HoME XI, with the only certified appearance of a lawyer in Tolkien's Legendarium.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Sep 15 2007, 9:15am
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the reason I find myself not participating is because I just can't find much interesting to say about CoH! There don't seem to be any good reasons for stuff to happen, and having to wonder time and time again whether something is caused by the "curse" or not just doesn't interest me.
I've never liked Turin's story. When we read UT here, I participated enthusiastically in the discussion, except for the Turin chapter, which I didn't even read. I'd read his story in the Sil and thought "Ugh. It's just like Siegfried only less interesting." I did read CoH, just because I thought I should, but it was like pulling teeth. I've been lurking here, but I'm afraid the discussion questions haven't grabbed me enough to make me want to reply, because I just don't care about Turin, or anyone else in the story. It has nothing to do with the thoughtful discussion I'm seeing here. You're doing a great job. I just don't like the story. I intended to participate, but nothing has come to mind as I've thought about the questions posed.
As an aside, for years Curious has suggested that we discuss the Essay on Fairy Stories. I think there might be some great grist for the mill there. But that said, I'm not a discussion leader. I'm a math teacher, and the kinds of questions I know how to ask have to do with solving math problems. But when other people ask questions, I can jump in, if an answer occurs to me. It just hasn't this time around.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
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"Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape." --Terry Pratchett
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Curious
Gondolin
Sep 15 2007, 10:42am
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Including Hurin's Act XXVIII stint that appears in HoME XI, with the only certified appearance of a lawyer in Tolkien's Legendarium.
What? Do you care to elaborate? I have not read HoME XI.
Of course there is Bilbo's will, which implies the presence of lawyers in the Shire.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Sep 15 2007, 4:48pm
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This is a lengthy coda to the "Narn", following Húrin after his release by Morgoth. In the scene in question, Manthor of Brethil advocates for Húrin, who is on trial at a Folkmoot in Brethil, having assaulted Hardang, the leader of that people after Brandir's death. The relevant section was briefly summarized here.
Though Manthor may be the only lawyer, there are a fair number of judges in Tolkien's work.
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Discuss The Children of Húrin in the Reading Room, June 11-October 14.
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Pallando
Menegroth
Sep 16 2007, 1:16am
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Question 1
I guess you mean the statement
for it was the purpose of Morgoth to subdue all Beleriand and to search out its every corner, so that none in any hole or hiding might live that were not thrall to him.
Yes you could say that. And your quotes on Sauron shows the two are more similar than not.
As for a metaphor for Glaurung, Curious and I (and you presumably) independently came up with Witch King. Although not the same magnitude in monstrosity, Glaurung's flames are the Witch King's scream. Do you know if Witch King's name is ever given, like his Lieutenant Gothmog?
Re: Glaurung's approach: six hours walking time a day would have them in the equivalent of northern Manitoba - but Nargothrond appears mid or southern in latitudes and only in late June-early July would the maximum daylight prevail.
Even so that does not greatly diminish your point of slooow travel time. And how hard must it be to slither along when you don't have to cook your meals? I think I'd give it on average a man's pace, but this is quibbling.
Could we make an argument that the Ring is LotR's Glaurung-device?
I think that would be a bit of a stretch, although in this world parallels can be pulled from some mighty strange places.
Question 2
Ten points for noticing the similarities with Lee's other watercolor. It appears to be the Narog on the right, but one could argue which river is on the left of the work, whether Teiglin or Sirion. I would vote for the latter with Eithel Ivrin in the extreme mid-upper right. Vantage: Southern Eves of Brethil. Teiglin was a few more miles still north I think.
Question 3
"...bald plot-mongering."
Maybe so, but it *is* a fantasy. And Morgoth had other species like birds that could have guided him straight to Cabed.
And Turin does seem to do an unusual amount of analysis here, not typically his forte..
Question 4.
I agree with your understanding of Brandir here, tho I hadn't considered the feminization' (cover your head) of the People of Haleth due to his lack of strength. But there is a history of a matriarchal society in the people of Brethil from the time of Haleth herself.
Thanks for your time and trouble to work on this post. A most interesting approach, Squire.
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P:
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For I also am a steward.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Sep 16 2007, 1:29am
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The Witch-king's true name is unknown.
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However, dna once put forward the theory that he is "Herumor", who returns in Tolkien's (twice) barely-begun sequel, "The New Shadow" (published in 1996 in The Peoples of Middle-earth, volume XII of The History of Middle-earth).
Another theory about the Witch-king's identity can be found here.
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Discuss The Children of Húrin in the Reading Room, June 11-October 14.
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Pallando
Menegroth
Sep 16 2007, 2:40am
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also for the citations. Interesting reading. There must be more serious - I mean really serious - Tolkienistas about than one would think offhand.
P.
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Saelind
Menegroth
Oct 9 2007, 3:19am
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Sorry this post is so late.
1. Question: How does Morgoth's desire parallel Sauron's? Who might Glaurung represent (metaphorically) in LotR?
Both aimed for world domination. I don’t think there is a direct parallel, though as Pallando pointed out, the Witch King would be close. Both were channels for their masters’ power, both ruled their own realms, and both brought despair and destruction on their enemies.
On the third page of the chapter is a painting some may call a bit impressionistic.
2. Question: What do you think artist Alan Lee is trying to show - literally and symbolically? Are there subtle aspects of the painting you found in the text? Do you think it is impressionistic or a literal rendition of what happens in the chapter? (One question, several parts!)
It’s an impressionistic but it is showing what is described in the text. Mainly that Glaurung was burning a path towards Brethil. I wonder though if Glaurung spent more energy than necessary burning his path. From the painting it looks like the swath of destruction is wider than he is.
It is obvious that Turin Turambar, the Master of Doom, believes that since he has seen and mentally jousted with the Great Worm, that he knows him well enough to predict his very thought and action. We see that at least this might appear to be so.
3. Question: Do you think Turin is able to logically put the pieces together and indeed predict the actions of the Worm, or was it only by chance that Glaurung behaved as Turin predicted.
I think he was being logical. The men of Brethil led by Túrin destroyed Glaurung’s orc army. Glaurung knew where he sent his army and knew that the men of Brethil had to have had help to defeat his orcs. Túrin figured that the dragon would come investigate the situation himself. And Túrin had a sense that his “doom” was tied up with Glaurung. Túrin had to face Glaurung at some point to get revenge and redeem his failing at Nargothrond.
4. Question: Is Brandir's behavior simple petulance at being undermined by a stronger and in this case a man more knowledgeable at what to do next', or does he have a genuine grievance at his people for not listening to him in this instance?
I think it is a mixture of jealousy, bitterness and frustration. He is jealous of Túrin’s prowess and ability, not to mention Túrin married the girl he loved. He is bitter that an outsider has supplanted him as the leader of his people. And ultimately, coming to the notice of Morgoth is generally fatal.
(This post was edited by Saelind on Oct 9 2007, 3:21am)
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