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taekotemple
Hithlum
Nov 27 2011, 9:43pm
Post #1 of 74
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Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays
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I've noticed some of my friends on facebook talking about how they hate when people say "Happy Holidays" to them instead of "Merry Christmas." I know many have said it's because they want the "Christ put back into Christmas" (which I can appreciate), but I'm wondering if there's more to this that I'm not seeing. I'm trying to understand this phenomenon, and maybe some here have some thoughts on this.
Personally, if someone wishes me well, I was taught to say thank you. Heck, when someone says they'll pray to God for me when I'm going through a hard time, I say thank you, even though I was raised in a sect of Buddhism that doesn't even worship any type of god whatsoever. And that's because I appreciate the intention and the sentiment behind it.
The way I see it, both Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas are much the same -- it's someone wishing you well. I don't understand how that could be odious or even insulting to anyone. I can see how someone who doesn't celebrate Christmas can feel uncomfortable if someone wished them Merry Christmas. But Happy Holidays is a catch-all greeting that can apply to any of the winter holidays. Usually, if I know someone celebrates Christmas, I will say "Merry Christmas," and if I don't know, I'll say "Happy Holidays" or whatever greeting fits their winter holiday.
I suppose I could be sounding a little PC here, but then, having been raised in a minority religion in the U.S, I can appreciate that not everyone celebrates Christmas, and I think it's gotten ridiculously commercial (Black Friday pepper spray incident anyone?), which seems to take away from the spiritual side of the holiday, to me.
I'm really curious to hear what people think about this debate, especially because I know many people here run the gamut of religious and spiritual beliefs and can speak quite eloquently and respectfully about those beliefs.
“Tell me one last thing,” said Harry. “Is this real? Or has this been happening inside my head?”
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?”
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ByThorinsBeard
Nargothrond
Nov 27 2011, 11:08pm
Post #2 of 74
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I understand there are a variety of holidays this time of year.
So I see Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas as the same thing. I am not offended by people offering specific holiday greetings. I think all holiday greetings are a good thing.
While I was born Jewish, my beliefs are elsewhere. We've celebrated Christmas for over 30 years.
"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you anywhere." - Albert Einstein.
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Maiarmike
Hithlum
Nov 27 2011, 11:19pm
Post #3 of 74
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It depends on who I'm talking to.
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I'll usually say Merry Christmas to most people that I know celebrate Christmas. Otherwise it's Happy Holidays, or even Happy Festivus ("Festivus for the rest of us!"). Not everyone prays to the same invisible man, gotta change it up once in a while. As long as they know you're wishing them a happy latter-part of the year. 
"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Nov 27 2011, 11:40pm
Post #4 of 74
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It is not only a Christian holiday.
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The early Christians started celebrating the birth of Christ around the time of the Roman Saturnalia; the Bible suggests the original event was in the spring. And a number of other faiths and ethnic groups also have significant holidays around the midwinter point.
I agree that it's respectful to say "Merry Christmas" to someone you know is Christian, but more inclusive to say "Happy Holidays" to everyone else. And I think it's extremely rude to spurn any good wishes on the grounds of how they're phrased!
Join us in the Reading Room as we discuss the LotR Appendices! The real stories behind the Numenorians, Rohirrim, Elves, and Dwarves!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Gimli'sBox
Mithlond
Nov 28 2011, 1:35am
Post #5 of 74
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I used to be a Merry-Christmas-Put-Christ-Back-Into-Chistmas but,
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I don't celebrate Christmas anymore so, I tend to prefer Happy Holidays if anything. But, like you I don't spurn someone wishing me well. When I'm doing the wishing I usually say "Happy Hanukkah" and whenever someone says something to me I'll usually reply "You too!"
I don't think it's worth fighting over. Or hyperventilating. If their intentions are good then whatever they have to say is just a wording of that intention. So, *shrugs*  
Some who have read the book, or at any rate have reviewed it, have found it boring, absurd, or contemptible; and I have no cause to complain, since I have similar opinions of their works, or of the kinds of writing they evidently prefer.
Good becomes great. Bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen. Because a strong man who has known power all his life may lose respect for that power. But a weak man knows the value of strength and knows compassion.
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Nov 28 2011, 2:50am
Post #6 of 74
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though I do enjoy a good round of "Happy Birthday" on the 25th :)
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Nov 28 2011, 3:10am
Post #7 of 74
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People do find the silliest things to get upset about, don't they?
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There was actually an article in the UU World recently about whether saying "Bless you" to a sneezer was offensive to atheists. I figure any kind of blessing I can get is a plus, and any well wishes, as you say, are a kindness.
I know people of just about every religious tradition, and people of no tradition. So "Happy Holidays" seems safer and easier than running through the list: "Have a lovely Christmas, Hannukah, Eid, Diwali, Kwanzaa and/or Yule etc." is a bit of a mouthful :-)
I see Christmas, especially in this country, as a secular as well as a religious holiday. So "Merry Christmas" seems fine to me. But I know it can be painful to people who have been persecuted by Christians (Jews in particular, I think) so I can't speak for them.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Nov 28 2011, 3:13am)
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Nov 28 2011, 3:14am
Post #8 of 74
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Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? //
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Annael
Elvenhome
Nov 28 2011, 3:20am
Post #9 of 74
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I have a lot of non-Christian friends so I say "Happy Holidays"
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or "Good Yule" as I'm Celtic, and our Yule predates Christmas.
Did you know that the term "Xmas" has been an acceptable form of "Christmas" since the Middle Ages? Even earlier, the Emperor Constantine, the first Christian emperor of Rome, used "X" for "Christ" - or rather, he used the labarum, a combination of the Greek letters chi (X) and rho (P), the first two letters of Christ in Greek. So those people who complain about "Xmas" taking the Christ out of Christmas have got it all wrong.
The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
(This post was edited by Annael on Nov 28 2011, 3:21am)
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Magpie
Elvenhome
Nov 28 2011, 4:02am
Post #10 of 74
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or 'Solstice Greetings' are greetings I enjoy using. Yule is another term I'll use happily.
I use to work in the public schools reading books to K-2 students. Our school had a lot of immigrants (some very new to the country) and/or families still rooted in their culture's celebrations. We had students from Central and South American, Somalia, Thailand, Hmong culture, and Tibet to name a few.
It was important for me to present material that let them share and be proud of their culture but not impose the majority US religion (of Christianity) or cultures on them. I keyed in on the seasons and let those topics touch on differences in how cultures and religions moved through them.
So my units included Early Autumn, Late Autumn, Winter at Night, Snow (the 'winter in the day' sorts of topics), Spring, and Summer.
Winter at Night would include a discussion of winter holidays across many cultures and then I would ask the students to share what their families did in December for celebrations or gatherings.
As a (nature-based, non-organized) pagan, I never rebuff any sincere expression of good will or concern. Our family marks Christmas as a cultural (but not religious) holiday but our big night is Winter Solstice. I am not offended or put off by anyone saying Merry Christmas to me but I wouldn't be any more keen to extend Merry Christmas to someone than I would be to say Happy Hanukkah or Eid Mubarak. Those aren't my holidays. I would rather have a greeting that came from someone's heart than to have them be worried that they need to figure out what would be most suitable for my beliefs. And the same goes for any I extend. But I would have no problem saying, "I hope you have a lovely Christmas." (or the like) to someone I know celebrates that holiday.
Anyone who would 'hate' that I wouldn't say "Merry Christmas" probably already has a problem with me. I worked with one Evangelical Christian teacher who always tried to engage the two pagans in the school in some sort of contentious debate in December. We mostly ignored her. I realized, though, that she really resented a lot of what I did including my emphasis of nature and folklore, legend and myth in my curriculum. She was the one who would bring in Santa and show the Littlest Angel in December. But, it was okay because she did an hour unit on Kwanzaa and an hour unit on Hanukkah. She got a Winter Haiku on Solstice from me just like the rest, though. :-)
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(This post was edited by Magpie on Nov 28 2011, 4:03am)
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taekotemple
Hithlum
Nov 28 2011, 4:16am
Post #11 of 74
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I think you're right, it's not worth getting upset about.
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I can't help but feel sad for people who do, though, and end up not seeing that whatever greeting someone gives them comes from a good place.
“Tell me one last thing,” said Harry. “Is this real? Or has this been happening inside my head?”
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?”
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Marillë by the Sea
Ossiriand
Nov 28 2011, 5:19am
Post #12 of 74
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I almost always say Merry Christmas because I grew up saying that and it comes automatically. Of course if someone replies saying they don't celebrate Christmas, then I'll apologize and say Happy Holidays. I don't like saying Happy Holidays because I associate that with the commercialization of the holidays, but I don't get offended when someone says that to me.
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Nov 28 2011, 5:58am
Post #13 of 74
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I don't like saying Happy Holidays because I associate that with the commercialization of the holidays The following is my impression, not necessarily a statement of fact:
I prefer Happy Holidays because I despair of how disingenuous Merry Christmas sounds, given how the holiday is manifest of late. It's so far removed -- for various reasons -- from a celebration of Christ's birth (speaking culturally not on an individual or personal basis) that it doesn't seem right to call "the holiday season" Christmas.
Of course none of that keeps me from celebrating His birth on that day, even in light of speculation about the actual date He was born.
If we were to be honest, by and large, these days Christmas is all about the presents and other traditions not necessarily related to Christ, or his birth.
ETA: just to clarify, it is because of the over commercialization that I see it this way. If you (anyone) can look past it, you have my admiration.
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Nov 28 2011, 6:04am)
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Nov 28 2011, 6:14am
Post #14 of 74
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Again this is only my impression, but December 25th is more a celebration of consumerism. Which I suppose, in secular, capitalist society, is something people are okay with. I suppose too that this makes me more cynical than I thought.
I understand that this is not how everyone sees it, nor wishes it to be. Nor does it mean I do not enjoy the holidays, which is why I wish them to be happy for all.
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Nov 28 2011, 6:15am)
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Spencissimus
Menegroth
Nov 28 2011, 6:21am
Post #15 of 74
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frankly (and I don't mean to be intolerant in any way here), anyone who takes offense at the phrase "merry christmas" is only feeding the fires of over the top political correctness. By all means wish somebody happy holidays, but I'll go on wishing everyone a very merry christmas.
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Moahunter
Nargothrond
Nov 28 2011, 7:20am
Post #16 of 74
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But I wish people wouldn't spoil it by bringing religion into it.
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Eledhwen
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 28 2011, 7:38am
Post #17 of 74
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I wonder if it's more of a US debate?
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Happy or Merry Christmas are still by far the most common terms here in the UK. I'd feel a bit silly saying "Happy holidays" to any of my friends here. And in my experience those of my friends and colleagues who aren't Christian are quite happy sending Christmas cards and wishing people Happy Christmas too.
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taekotemple
Hithlum
Nov 28 2011, 7:55am
Post #18 of 74
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I was hoping some from other countries would comment too.
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I find it interesting that it doesn't seem to be a big debate in the UK as it can be here in the US. Sometimes I wonder if it's a cultural thing in the US that we can tend to debate some things more than they need to be.
“Tell me one last thing,” said Harry. “Is this real? Or has this been happening inside my head?”
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?”
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Maiarmike
Hithlum
Nov 28 2011, 10:19am
Post #19 of 74
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Do we have some pastafarians around here?
"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
(This post was edited by Maiarmike on Nov 28 2011, 10:23am)
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Nov 28 2011, 12:09pm
Post #20 of 74
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Judging from the letters to the editor, people are more likely to take offense
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over "happy holidays", including advocating boycotting businesses that say it. PC can cut both ways.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Nov 28 2011, 12:15pm
Post #21 of 74
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I'm not, but my dad claims to be :-D //
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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NottaSackville
Doriath
Nov 28 2011, 12:33pm
Post #22 of 74
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It's the milquetoastiness of it all
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As noted by many here, Happy Holidays is something you say to people when you don't know (or care) enough about someone to know whether they celebrate Kwanza, Diwali, Christmas, Hannukka, Yule, or something else. Since religion/culture is something that is pretty fundamental to many of us, to not know that is to not know much at all. After all, I can wish my Indian friends happy Diwali even if I don't personally celebrate it.
So Happy Holidays is simultaneously saying "I wish good things for you" and "Eh, we're not that close".
Makes you feel good, don't it?
Don't get me wrong - I've sent out Christmas cards (yes, Christmas cards) that said "Happy Holidays" on them because they were pre-printed and I know many on my list DO celebrate holidays other than Christmas. I'm also not offended by Happy Holidays, but it doesn't carry the same warmth to me as someone saying "Merry Christmas".
Notta
How will you get to the Lonely Mountain?
Help TORn log enough miles to get us to Smaug's home by Dec. 2013: Walk to Rivendell - Thursdays on Main (image courtesy of Arwen's daughter)
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silneldor
Gondolin
Nov 28 2011, 1:38pm
Post #23 of 74
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Commercialization by itself, i agree
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seems like a shallow entity. But looking at it from the other angle, it is the result of us individuals finding joy in giving. My thought (although i agree as to the controversy as to a winter Christ birthday) is that with the birth of Christ, there began a life where the main attention was giving love with complete abandon. So that is why this season is special to me. It is time to gather with loved ones and express 'giving', although it need not be just in the material giving area. It is but one expression of love.
''Sam put his ragged orc-cloak under his master's head, and covered them both with the grey robe of Lorien; and as he did so his thoughts went out to that fair land, and to the Elves, and he hoped that the cloth woven by their hands might have some virtue to keep them hidden beyond all hope in this wilderness of fear...But their luck held, and for the rest of that day they met no living or moving thing; and when night fell they vanished into the darkess of Mordor.'' - - -rotk, chapter III
Faerie contains many things besides elves and fays and besides dwarfs, witches, trolls, giants or dragons; it holds the seas, the sun, the moon, the sky; and the earth, and all things that are one in it: tree and bird, water and stone, wine and bread, and ourselves, mortal men, when we are enchanted."
— J.R.R. Tolkien
May the grace of Manwë let us soar with eagle's wings!
In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manwë Súlimo
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Laerasëa
Dor-Lomin
Nov 28 2011, 2:54pm
Post #24 of 74
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Although for the most part, I'll say Merry Christmas, because I celebrate Christmas. Not so much the religious aspect, but it's just been a family tradition since I was very little to go up to my grandparents house every year and celebrate Christmas.
If there is someone I'm talking to who isn't very christian, I find that chances are, they still celebrate Christmas, so I still say Merry Christmas. However, for people who are of other religions and celebrate other holidays, I try to acknowledge them. With friends, I usually know what to say, but in the case of someone I don't know well at all, I just go with, "have a wonderful winter break" or something along those lines.
"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one."
--George R.R. Martin
Mozart and Chocolate
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Laerasëa
Dor-Lomin
Nov 28 2011, 3:02pm
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Part of the reason Christians originally began celebrating on Saturnalia was that you couldn't get arrested for anything during that particular Roman holiday, so they could celebrate their religion and work on conversion without any fear of being persecuted (although since this was in the fourth century, they were pretty safe with Rome at this point), and they could potentially convert many people to Christianity-- at least in name-- by putting a religious name to this holiday (even though yes, Christ was born in the spring). Interestingly, it wasn't very effective at all for the first few hundred years.
"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one."
--George R.R. Martin
Mozart and Chocolate
The College Student's List
Tolkien and Taters
Laerasea's Travelling TORn Journal
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