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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
Nov 22 2011, 12:37am
Post #1 of 78
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What bugs you about the movies?
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I just came up with a list of some of the things that bug me about the movies, and I wanted to know other people's opinions. I tried to focus on mostly smaller things because I think the "THEY RUINED FARAMIR!" and "ELVES AT HELM'S DEEP?!?!?!" issues have been brought up enough.
1. Merry wounding the Witch King with a Rohan sword...
Merry goes through three blades in the movies, and yet the one that's the least likely to have any special Nazgul-wounding properties is the one he ends up using in that scene. I know he loses the other two, but I thought the whole point of giving him that Noldor blade in Lothlorien was to have a substitute for his barrow blade in the movie. But I guess Gimli finding the belt/sheath among the dead orcs near Fagorn was all PJ had in mind for it...
2. Denethor not having a palantir...
I was really hoping that this would be "fixed" in the extended edition, but I guess it was just never part of the script. It's sort of hinted at in the movie by one of Denethor's lines about "seeing more than you know", but I think it should have been brought out like it was in the book. Having Denethor be as crazy as he was needed a little more justification than just him mourning Boromir's death.
3. The Black Ships
I never felt that the threat of the black ships was established very well. Gandalf randomly brings them up to Aragorn in the Golden Hall, and then he brings them up later in Minas Tirith while talking to Pippin. And finally Elrond tells Aragorn about them as the reason he "needs more men". Even with all of that, the black ships never really felt like that big of a deal in the movie to me. And I think the surprise (in the theatrical version) of Aragorn being on the ships when they arrive could have been better too. Because that's all it really was...a surprise. It wasn't really the eucatastrophe that it was in the book. And when the surprise is taken away in the extended edition, there's even less of an impact. Also, somehow that additional scene when Aragorn stares at the black ships in despair never felt like it worked as well as it could have. I love the way it was shot, but I think the poorly executed buildup of the black ships definitely hurt it.
4. not showing Samwise spare Gollum
I don't think this scene would have fit in very well with the flow of the cutting between the Black Gate and Mount Doom, but I still think it should have been shown some way. Even if Sam's little speech was taken out entirely, maybe just a few glances between him and Gollum would have been enough. But it probably would have been difficult to show that without making Sam look kind of stupid for letting Gollum go after all the Frodo-choking and rock-throwing stuff. I guess we just have to assume something like that happened off screen because Sam follows Frodo into Sammath Naur without knowing Gollum is behind him.
5. "It takes more to make a king than a broken elvish blade!"
This is just one line, but I hate it. Narsil was a dwarvish blade used by men...how does that make it an elvish blade? It was reforged by elves, but that still wouldn't make it a "BROKEN elvish blade". I know it's just a little error, but it bugs me.
So what are some things that bug you?
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 22 2011, 3:00am
Post #2 of 78
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Okay, that was pretty sloppy...
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5. "It takes more to make a king than a broken elvish blade!"
Boromir should have had a better grasp of his own people's history than that. And should have known enough about the history of Narsil to be familiar with the blade's origin.
I still wish that the scouring of the Shire could have been included with Saruman's fate told as Tolkien related it.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.
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Kristin Thompson
Nargothrond
Nov 22 2011, 4:33am
Post #3 of 78
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Gandalf turns wimpy, and other bothersome moments
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1. I am very irked by the moment after the Battle of the Pelennor is won when Gandalf, for no reason whatsoever, suddenly turns despairing and more or less gives up, saying something like "I've sent him [Frodo] to his death." What?! Gandalf the White is characterized as one tough cookie, rescuing Theoden from Saruman's control, bringing troops to save the day at Helm's Deep, saving Faramir, facing down Denethor and doing an end-run around him to summon help from Rohan, leading the troops during the attack on Minas Tirith, etc. And yet suddenly, after victory is achieved, he gives up. It makes no sense, and is only done so that Aragorn can be the one to come up with the idea of attacking the black gate in order to draw Sauron's eye away from Frodo and Sam. In the book, of course, drawing Sauron's attention away from Mordor and forcing him to attack prematurely is Gandalf's strategy all along.
2. Just how close is Mt. Doom to Helm's Deep, anyway? At the end of The Two Towers, Gandalf, Theoden, Eomer, Aragorn, et al. ride to the top of the ridge near Helm's Deep and look east. They can see Mt. Doom clearly in the distance. Minas Tirith is, as we know from the map, between Helm's Deep and Mordor. Yet it takes Gandalf days to ride from Edoras (also east of Helm's Deep, and hence closer to Mt. Doom) to Minas Tirith. My question is, why does there have to be a whole series of beacons, which we see being lit over the course of part of one day, one entire night, and part of a second day? The suggestion there is that Minas Tirith and Edoras are not, to say the least, within sight of each other, and hence Mt. Doom would not be visible from anywhere in Rohan.
3. How does Sam know so precisely ("If I take one more step") how far away he has been from home in the past? Does he count every step he takes away from home, no matter what direction he's going in?
4. Why did the actors playing hobbits have to wear big, clunky prosthetic feet? Tolkien describes hobbits as not wearing shoes, "because their feet grow natural leathery soles and thick warm brown hair like the stuff on their heads (which is curly)." Nothing about their feet being big. Why couldn't the hobbit actors wear little toupees on top of their feet? I suppose it was partly because the actors needed to have the soles of their feet protected while running around outdoors, but did the fake feet have to be so very large?
5. Why, if Bilbo has had the Ring for decades, does he look older at the point where Gandalf arrives at the beginning of The Fellowship of the Ring? We see him looking distinctly younger in the prologue scene where he finds the Ring. That's how he should look when he's 111, too.
6. How does Gandalf manage to be dancing with the hobbits in one shot, and seconds later dealing with his fireworks?
7. Gandalf can't figure out the "password" to get the Moria west-gate to open. Frodo says that it's a riddle and "solves" it. How in the world does he figure it out? (And it's not really a riddle. At least, it isn't in the book. Gandalf has simply chosen the wrong translation for a passage that's ambiguous in the way that it can be interpreted; there are plenty of languages that have such ambiguities.)
In short, you may notice that I am rather peeved by the treatment of my favorite character, Gandalf.
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
Nov 22 2011, 4:54am
Post #4 of 78
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That line came from the Mouth of Sauron.
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
Nov 22 2011, 5:02am
Post #5 of 78
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1. I guess the condescending words of Saruman can even haunt Gandalf after his death.
4. That's something I just kind of took for granted, and I'm not sure where the hobbits having big feet thing from. It's been around at least since the 70s when the Bakshi and Rankin/Bass movies came out.
6. "He comes and goes at will. He is a wizard, you know." -Bombur, The Hobbit (Rankin/Bass movie)
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Spencissimus
Menegroth
Nov 22 2011, 5:39am
Post #6 of 78
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If anything, it would be Gandalf the Bleached
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I love just about everything about the films, but if I had to have a beef with something, it would be the fact that PJ and Co went a bit over the top in making Gandalf white. I mean, the white robes were a great costume and all, but did they really need to give him a cut and colour too? It just strikes me as a bit of unsubtle overkill.
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Turnip Head
Nevrast
Nov 22 2011, 8:59am
Post #7 of 78
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I wish they would have explained why Aragorn is the heir to the throne. In the movies, Isildur is the last king of Gondor (also wrong!) and when he was killed the line was said to end without any mention of Isildur having children to continue the lineage. How then did Aragorn come to be the heir? I know it may not have been possible to explain it all in film without slowing the thing down dramatically, but a little better explaination would have been nice so that I wouldn't always have to explain it to my non-Tolkien-reading friends.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 22 2011, 11:21am
Post #8 of 78
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That line came from the Mouth of Sauron.
Thanx for the correction. Maybe Sauron (or at least his mouthpiece) just wasn't knowledgeable of the details of Narsil's creation. I see that the original line (as written by Tolkien) was, "It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!" The "piece of elvish glass" must refer to the Orthanc-stone that Aragorn made use of before he departed from the Hornburg.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.
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Xanaseb
Dor-Lomin
Nov 22 2011, 1:14pm
Post #9 of 78
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I have to agree with everything that you said.....especially as now you have made me realise about Merry's sword!
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Saruman's death scene also bugs me........it would have been so much better if they had Saruman walking away and then Wormtongue running out and stabbing him, and (was it Merry) shooting.....and then the amazing book description of Saruman being blown away like dust into the West
The Blue Wizards = Enigma = Great topic for Fan Fiction (proper fan fiction of course)
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diedye
Hithlum
Nov 22 2011, 4:23pm
Post #10 of 78
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Bungee-jumping flaming Denethor...
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... come to think of it, Denethor, period. He was portrayed as a raving lunatic, rather than a proud ruler who lost his way.
Faramir doesn't fair any better, IMO... too wimpy.
The one scene I miss most from ROTK is in the Houses of Healing where Merry asks for his pipeweed.
Aragorn: Master Meriadoc, [..] if you think that I have passed through the mountains and the realm of Gondor with fire and sword to bring herbs to a careless soldier who throws away his gear, you are mistaken. If your pack has not been found, then you must send for the herb-master of this House...
Pippin: My dear ass, your pack is lying by your bed, and you had it on your back when I met you.
Love it!
Blessed are the cracked,
For they are the ones who let in the light!
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Lily Fairbairn
Gondolin
Nov 22 2011, 4:59pm
Post #11 of 78
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Overall I'm okay with the movie's Faramir, although there are two details that annoy me, both having to do with the EE of Two Towers. First of all, PJ et. al. really needed to include his speech over the dead Haradrim in the TE---I don't care that they were trying to make him appear threatening to Frodo and Sam. He could still have been a threat, just in a more subtle way.
My number one cringe-worthy moment in all three movies is when Faramir's men beat up Gollum. I tell myself that when Faramir walks in and says, "That's enough!" he's indicating that he didn't know they were doing it and is shocked. Still, it's just wrong.
Merry's blade not being a special one does niggle a bit, but I'm more annoyed with the whole scene with Eowyn and the Wiki being cut so close and so fast (not to mention interrupted by Aragorn's arrival) you almost miss it.
* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!
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Elberbeth
Dor-Lomin
Nov 22 2011, 5:49pm
Post #12 of 78
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I always thought the "elvish glass" refers to the Ring of Barahir.//
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"There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark."
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 22 2011, 5:55pm
Post #13 of 78
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That could well be. Nonetheless, the reference is definitely not to Aragorn's sword.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.
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Nightingale
Nargothrond
Nov 22 2011, 6:20pm
Post #14 of 78
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This will bother me now!
3. I'd always assumed that this line was said at the edge of a field or crop boundary, hence no need for a running count. But I see what you mean about how far he has traveled in other directions....
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Nightingale
Nargothrond
Nov 22 2011, 6:23pm
Post #15 of 78
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and *I* always thought it was the Elfstone//
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Nightingale
Nargothrond
Nov 22 2011, 6:27pm
Post #16 of 78
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More explanation for Eowyn's change of attachment from Aragorn to Faramir. My non-book reading friends who have watched the EEs always assume she's just being 'fast', The criticism bugs me.
I know this couldn't be done without a loss of pace though.
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riderofrohan410
Lindon
Nov 23 2011, 3:49am
Post #17 of 78
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"So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, in which case you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought..."
----
My Dear Lucy,
I wrote this story for you, but when I began it I had not realized that girls grow quicker than books. As a result you are already too old for fairy tales, and by the time it is printed and bound you will be older still. But some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again. You can then take it down from some upper shelf, dust it, and tell me what you think of it. I shall probably be too deaf to hear, and too old to understand, a word you say, but I shall still be
your affectionate Godfather,
C.S. Lewis
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Nov 23 2011, 3:32pm
Post #18 of 78
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Some of the best and most faithful adaptations I've ever seen.
(Though I do wish they'd put in Eowyn's shower scene.)
******************************************
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
an age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
an age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
no man will spare another.
-From the Völuspá, 13th Century
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
Nov 23 2011, 5:41pm
Post #19 of 78
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There was that random Aragorn/Arwen bathing scene in the Glittering Caves that was in the beginning of the second script back when it was going to be two movies.
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IDLookout
Ossiriand
Nov 23 2011, 9:24pm
Post #20 of 78
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I always thought that giving strength to Arwen and taking it away from Frodo at the ford was a mistake in his character development.
This would have made a great scene:
Suddenly the foremost Rider spurred his horse forward. It checked at the water and reared up. With a great effort Frodo sat upright and brandished his sword.
“Go back!” he cried. “Go back to the Land of Mordor, and follow me no more! ' His voice sounded thin and shrill in his own ears. The Riders halted, but Frodo had not the power of Bombadil. His enemies laughed at him with a harsh and chilling laughter. ”Come back! Come back!“ they called. ”To Mordor we will take you!"
“Go back!” he whispered.
“The Ring! The Ring!” they cried with deadly voices; and immediately their leader urged his horse forward into the water, followed closely by two others.
“By Elbereth and Lúthien the Fair,” said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, 'you shall have neither the Ring nor me!"
Bilbo, Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins,
He's only three feet tall.
Bilbo, Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins,
The bravest little hobbit of them all.
-Leonard Nimoy
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duats
Hithlum
Nov 23 2011, 11:51pm
Post #22 of 78
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In no particular order:
- The Witchking breaking Gandalf's staff.
- Frodo sending Sam home.
- Aragorn killing the Mouth of Sauron.
- Gandalf giving up after The Battle of Pelennor Fields.
- Gandalf assaulting Denethor.
- Gimli's characterization in RoTK.
- Denethor's death scene.
- The reunion scene between the Fellowship.
- Faramir wanting the Ring.
- Frodo figuring out the Moria riddle instead of Merry.
- The warg fight.
- Aragorn's "fake death."
- Frodo being pretty much useless in terms of defending himself.
- Elrond coming across as a jerk.
- The elves' involvement at Helm's Deep.
- The lack of Glorfindel.
- The characterization of Gollum.
- Pippin having no problem with killing Uruk-Hai in FoTR, and then suddenly being afraid to kill in RoTK.
- The "Paths of the Dead" scene/abomination.
- The "White Rider" scene.
- The "Weathertop" scene/abomination.
- The "Voice of Saruman" scene.
- John Rhys-Davies voicing Treebeard.
- Orlando Bloom.
- Miranda Otto.
Visual nitpicks:
- Sauron's physical form in the prologue.
- Sauron being a giant floating eyeball atop Barad-dur.
- The wargs.
- Gandalf the White - his costume, his staff, his shorter hair/beard, and black eyebrows.
- Theoden's goatee.
- The Mouth of Sauron not having eyes.
- Shelob not having horns.
- The Dead Army
- Gimli's "lawn gnome" look.
- The hobbit feet.
- The flailing Ring Wraith with the torch embedded in its face.
- Galadriel's "witch" state.
- Fangorn looking like an obvious movie set.
- Rohan having a short-grassed, hilly, and rocky landscape.
- Gondor looking like a barren wasteland.
(This post was edited by duats on Nov 24 2011, 12:01am)
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duats
Hithlum
Nov 24 2011, 12:03am
Post #23 of 78
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- Legolas surfing down a flight of stairs.
- Legolas taking down an Oliphaunt single-handed.
- Denethor's characterization.
- Eowyn's characterization.
- Faramir allowing his men to beat Gollum.
- Craig Parker/Haldir.
- Haldir's death scene.
- Marton Csokas' lifeless portrayal of Celeborn.
- Certain shots where it is painfully obvious that a smaller person is wearing a rather unsettling mask of one of the actors' faces.
- Glamdring not glowing.
- Gandalf the Grey's thin, scraggly, fake-looking beard.
(This post was edited by duats on Nov 24 2011, 12:11am)
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
Nov 24 2011, 12:23am
Post #24 of 78
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- Aragorn killing the Mouth of Sauron.
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He was just really annoyed by his "elvish blade" comment.
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telain
Nargothrond
Nov 24 2011, 12:36am
Post #25 of 78
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...it would have set up a more convincing reason why Saruman joins with Sauron.
If Denethor were portrayed as a stronger character (which he is in the book), yet so obviously changed/twisted by the palantir, it would have made a nice parallel with Saruman in the film.
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