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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Balin and Dwalin Photo
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Jul 16 2011, 2:47pm

Post #326 of 351 (7824 views)
well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I may be in the minority here, but Dwalin not having a blue beard is no big deal for me, him being bald and his overall look makes him stand apart as it is; that's good enough in my opinion. Also, if Kili has a slightly longer bead in the movie, this is a perfect group!


Jul 16 2011, 3:24pm

Post #327 of 351 (7681 views)
I don't think you're wrong [In reply to] Can't Post

And luckily, there are many people here who do like to back up their opinions with research and facts, so at least some people on these boards can meet you at that kind of intellectual level on the boards. Opinions aren't always based on facts, though, so not everyone is going to be able to site examples as easily.

As for the social stuff, I think it's a challenge for many people anyway. And aside from some social gaffes (which I'm sure all of us have done on the internet to some extent), I do find some of your observations very interesting and do find a fair amount in what you say that I agree with. Believe me, you could be doing a lot worse!


Jul 16 2011, 5:25pm

Post #328 of 351 (7634 views)
I second that// [In reply to] Can't Post



Jul 16 2011, 5:49pm

Post #329 of 351 (7601 views)
I love the Reading Room [In reply to] Can't Post

.... but don't often let myself post there because I get too carried away looking up references and then wonder where the day went. When you work from home you have to be careful about these things!

You have some interesting ideas DrDeath and I've agreed with some of them, though that may surprise you. Wink And they're very distinctive - people often say that they're waiting to hear your reaction - on the photos for example. The problem, I think, lies here:

Perhaps being a purist i believe that my opinions (where they coincide with my purism) have more validity than the opinions of those who's don't based on the fact they reflect a vision closer to what Tolkien stated/implied.

There's a distinction between what Tolkien stated and what he implied. What he stated is there in print for all of us to see, and of course, if your view on any given question is a statement of Tolkien's actual words then it will be more valid than one that isn't (providing the point at issue is about faithfulness to the text). But 'what he implied' is a judgement, not a fact, and someone else might disagree with you about it, based on equal knowledge of Tolkien's life and writings. Whose view is more valid then? And beyond that there are all the questions Tolkien left open, or changed his mind about in the construction of a mythology that continued for a large part of his life, or the inconsistencies. An obvious example in this forum is the question of whether we view The Hobbit as a stand-alone work or consider it in relation to Lord of the Rings. The views on one side of that debate are quite different from the views on the other but is either side more valid? I'd say not. Obviously I stand by my own views but I think other people's are equally valid and I'm not just being pious here - I really have found that my understanding of the books grows through listening to other people's views and I've known the books over 40 years.

And of course;

i will without shame demand that people who express an opinion i believe is not based on the source either find and present evidence or else make strenuously clear that their opinion is personal and thus in a sense 'second rate'....

You can ask, but do you really think you have the authority, or the right to 'demand' anything of anyone else here? Really? All our opinions are personal, yours included, and I suspect you know full well that labelling other peoples' views as 'second-rate' is... how shall I put this.... a whole lot more like a red rag than an olive branch! Tongue


Jul 16 2011, 6:12pm

Post #330 of 351 (7605 views)
Has anyone found a hi-res version yet? [In reply to] Can't Post

I still haven't seen one.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


Jul 16 2011, 6:43pm

Post #331 of 351 (7644 views)
NOW THATS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT! But there may be trouble afoot... [In reply to] Can't Post

These two look so awsome, Balin look exactly how I imagined him and a can already tell that dwalin is going to be the movie badass, I can't wait till i can see him swinging that hammer into a goblins face.

However, the may be trouble afoot and it concerns Thorin, does anyone remember that that first look photo of Bilbo in BagEnd reading the terms and conditions while the dwarves look onward in the background? Anyway, in that photo there is a dwarf right in the middle in the archway with black hair and chainmail and ever since these pictures of the dwarves have been coming out, not once has this dwarf turned up and I'm beggining to worry that it might be Thorin, true the dwarf looks pretty cool and when I first saw it i assumed it was Dwalin but I can't imagine them making Thorin YOUNG...

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo


Jul 16 2011, 7:07pm

Post #332 of 351 (7566 views)
Ohhhhhhhh can I get an "amen" up in here!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Balrog's wings, anyone?

Permanent address: Into the West


Jul 16 2011, 7:35pm

Post #333 of 351 (7556 views)
Hmm, had a think about this....... [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To
I can't imagine them making Thorin YOUNG....

....and I can, LOL!


Jul 16 2011, 8:03pm

Post #334 of 351 (7507 views)
I know you're not selling out, Dr D, but [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure that some of us appreciate your attempts to meet those at the opposite end of the spectrum on middle ground. And I hope that you will eventually feel at least a little satisfied with the Thorin that we get.

As a matter of interest, you have mentioned some of the discrepencies in Tolkien's text as regards his depiction of Thorin. For instance, the dwarf's aging and weak eyesight appears to be contradicted by his swift response when he shoots at the deer in the forest. My explanation for this is the one I have given before: that Tolkien hadn't quite thought through the physical nature of his Thorin even if the character is multi-layered. This is why I can easily accept Richard Armitage in the role. I wondered how you reconciled such discrepancies.

And without being rude about Ian McShane, I might have been a bit unhappy if he had been chosen if I had placed too much emphasis on physical looks because he has a very Mediterranean appearance and would not have been my ideal for a "northern European" dwarf.


Jul 16 2011, 8:18pm

Post #335 of 351 (7491 views)
A botched face lift! [In reply to] Can't Post


And of course, Kili will be teased throughout the movie by the other dwarves because of his attachment to one "Jenny". We don't find out till Kili's final scene that Jenny is not his left-behind sweetheart, but indeed, it's Jenny Craig.

Permanent address: Into the West

Guardian of the Galaxy / Moderator

Jul 16 2011, 8:53pm

Post #336 of 351 (7609 views)
Thirded! [In reply to] Can't Post

I should add that "impersonal measures of public opinion" are welcome at TORn and no one's opinion here is second rate, be it based on fact or feeling. The one exception would be anyone that implies that someone else's opinion is second rate. That's the biggest cop out of all, isn't what TORn is about and has no place here.

Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.

"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase

TORn Calendar

(This post was edited by Altaira on Jul 16 2011, 10:48pm)


Jul 16 2011, 9:03pm

Post #337 of 351 (7470 views)
The night of the "long knives"? / [In reply to] Can't Post


Permanent address: Into the West


Jul 16 2011, 9:13pm

Post #338 of 351 (7493 views)
Who says he'll be young? [In reply to] Can't Post

All the dwarves in that photo look a bit different than they do n they're official pictures.

I tend to like characters nobody else cares about:
Faramir (LOTR), Mr. Fantastic (Fantastic 4), Zazu (The Lion King)

Fantastic Four

Jul 16 2011, 10:15pm

Post #339 of 351 (7439 views)
To be honest i'm not entirely sure myself [In reply to] Can't Post

So therefore i would likely attribute it to the context- Tolkien makes clear that Thorin's shot with the bow is reflexive- he talks about how they were kind of on edge at that time and how when Thorin made the shot he did not actually know what he was aiming at- it was kind of reflexive adrenaline and considering how close the deer was, it isn't some miraculous feat of archery through the depths of Mirkwood at 500 paces.

In terms of Richard Armitage, i have every faith he will be adequate- i'm not calling him a 'wildcard' (and in not doing so i suppose there's a slightly passive-aggressive insult of the like this forum so adores in me believing him 'nothing special'Evil) and like i mentioned in my earlier post, there is an advantage in casting him over the likes of Brian Cox in that i can be confident that in accordance with cinematic ageism his character will be treated with sympathy. Richard Armitage is almost the definition of the 'middle-earth action hero' and so if that's the direction they're pushing Thorin in then he will play the part very well, and i'm unlikely to come out of the cinema spitting feathers, but for me it seems like they're making the character more generic than he could be.

As for Ian McShane, well he does have a rather olive complexion but then so does James Nesbitt- it's nothing that make-up couldn't fix. Christopher Lee is far more Mediterranean than ever Ian McShane is, and Tom Conti who is half or some such Italian doesn't look particularly Mediterranean so looks can be deceptive. I think their builds, being rather stocky do give them more in the way of northern-european credibility being a body-type that would befit someone from colder climes. Personally i've kind of fallen in love with the notion of Ian McShane as Thorin so i suppose there is an element (only an element mind- i'm getting a bit narked at people overstating my points when i'm being candid) of bias, alongside my obvious fears of Armitage's apparent inadequacy. If i may wax lyrical for a moment, there's a nice combination of ferocity and charm that McShane possesses that i think is particularly apt to Thorin's character- he's someone who's so well mannered and warm and yet you'd really be terrified to see angry. For me, the perfect actor for a part is one that not only is the best for the job but also the person you couldn't see playing any other part in the story quite so well and Ian McShane captures that in my image of Thorin (which is why i will actually be just as mortified if he comes up as Dain). Brian Cox would have been a good Thorin, and Richard Armitage may be capable, but it's Ian McShane who's my definitive now, even if he wasn't actually cast (for whatever reason).

But i'll give Armitage his chance (i've not exactly got much choice), i think it's fair to say that the only way is up in terms of my opinion of his ThorinAngelic

We shall see.

Dr Death

Fantastic Four

Jul 16 2011, 11:12pm

Post #340 of 351 (7393 views)
I have utmost confindence in RA... [In reply to] Can't Post

...Thorin needs gravitas, which Armitage has plenty of. I'm not saying McShane doesn't have any, but if he were Thorin and PJ and Co. used the same hair, makeup and costume they're using for Armitage, I'd be watching the Hobbit and seeing 12 dwarves and Blackbeard from PoC4! When Armitage was first announced as Thorin, I knew straight off that they couldn't have picked a better man to play the role, as he is more than capable of acting out all of Thorin's traits that are referred to in the book. What's more, we know curtesy of an interview that Armitage is a huge fan of Tolkien, so I think that while he might not look like the picture of Thorin that everyone has in their head when reading the Hobbit, he will certainly play Thorin as he was meant to be played. I have no doubts whatsoever.


Jul 16 2011, 11:34pm

Post #341 of 351 (7431 views)
It doesn't break my heart, but it is dissapointing, especially in light of how bizzare some of the looks are [In reply to] Can't Post

Again, it is made more of a rub, for me, by the fact that, when you look at some of the design choices they made for many of the other dwarves, a little blue tinting wouldn't even be that outlandish. If they were going for all the dwarves being Gimli, Thorin, and Gloin clones I could better understand it, even if I didn't entirely approve. But to have Nori have a starfish styling, Bifur with a hunk of metal in his head while Bofur sports a hat from Whoville etc., but then change the colour of Dwalin's beard, one of the few hard and expliciet descriptions we get concerning the look of the Dwarves in the book, to keep it from being too outlandish. . . it just doesn't mesh up. It bothers me in the same way the trimming back of Gandalf's magic bothered me all the more because of how astounding and unfettered feats by Arwen and Saruman were in Fellowship.

In Reply To
I may be in the minority here, but Dwalin not having a blue beard is no big deal for me, him being bald and his overall look makes him stand apart as it is; that's good enough in my opinion. Also, if Kili has a slightly longer bead in the movie, this is a perfect group!

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Justice League

Jul 17 2011, 12:52am

Post #342 of 351 (7326 views)
for what it's worth... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. bifur (love james nesbit-- his expression, his costume, his axe. he's gonna be great fun!)
2. bofur (this is just too perfect. love how he wears his pantaloons up high.)
3. nori (sure his hair's weird, but it's a great look otherwise. plus, it's jed f'ing brody.)
4. dwalin (totally badass-- and that hammer!)
5. bombur (looks like a wild animal.)
6. fili (looks a bit too human, but if they just changed his nose, he'd be awesome. great expression.)
7. dori
8. oin
9. gloin (dori, oin and gloin are just good, solid, basic gimli-like dwarves-- and i like.)
10. ori (great studious look, great hood.)
11. balin (not bad, just kinda boring. we'll see...)
12. kili (obviously. he'd make a great human character, but is a terrible dwarf. very disappointing.)

obviosly, p.j., fran, philippa and the entire team are great geniuses of casting (which was reinforced with a quick perusal of the entire cast on imdb just now), and these dwarves are a great example of that. even kili is more of a design problem-- i have no issue at all with the actor. but when it comes down to it, i just can't wait till december 2012!


Jul 17 2011, 1:17am

Post #343 of 351 (7359 views)
Sauget... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you got some of those names wrong.

The character you describe as Bifur is in fact Bofur, the character you describe as Bofur is in fact Bombur, and the character you describe as Bombur is in fact, Bifur.


Justice League

Jul 17 2011, 1:37am

Post #344 of 351 (7331 views)
man... [In reply to] Can't Post

...i made a key for myself, and i still totally screwed it up. there's just too many dwarves! sorry about that-- it should read...

1) bofur
2) bombur
5) bifur

don't know how i did that-- i've known since junior high that bombur was the fat one. oh well.

and thanks for the heads up.

Arwen's daughter

Jul 17 2011, 3:15am

Post #345 of 351 (7291 views)
Extra crispy or barbequed? // [In reply to] Can't Post


My LiveJournal
My Costuming Site
TORn's Costume Discussions Archive

Fantastic Four

Jul 17 2011, 4:04am

Post #346 of 351 (7288 views)
Well said. [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To
Where most people go wrong is 1. insisting that others should feel the same way and 2. trying to use some kind of "logic" or "facts" or trying to ally themselves to a group ("real fans") or an authority ("Tolkien is rolling in his grave") to make their personal preference seem more legitimate. That backfires because it gives people something to argue over, and it also paradoxically makes the person sound like they aren't so sure of their own opinion. No one can argue if you just say "well, I don't like it! I don't look at that picture and think 'dwarf.' I think PJ has gone in the wrong direction here." You've just said what YOU think and you are the only authority on that. People can say "well, I do like it," but simply expressing a different opinion is not arguing.

(Although a friend did have a boyfriend in college who, when she said "well, that's just my opinion" shouted at her "NO IT ISN'T!" That relationship didn't last long.)

TORn member formally known as ryan1976.

Fantastic Four

Jul 17 2011, 4:05am

Post #347 of 351 (7300 views)
Yep...still need to see the Hi-Res [In reply to] Can't Post

For Balin and Dwalin and Bombur, Bofer and Bifur as well.

TORn member formally known as ryan1976.

Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Jul 17 2011, 7:06am

Post #348 of 351 (7306 views)
Hammer time! [In reply to] Can't Post

Dwalin has a hammer! Yes! I was totally hoping he would. He looks great, and I have no complaints.

Balin is nice, but has a little bit of a gnome or "north pole" vibe to him.

Bring on Thorin!

A greenlight from the shadows shall spring!

Justice League

Jul 17 2011, 1:26pm

Post #349 of 351 (7246 views)
Mortified? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll actually be quite pleased if McShane ends up making a cameo appearance as Dain, if only so that we'll have a good visual representation of McShane as a proper Tolkien Dwarf kitted out in Weta armour. At least then we could put up Dain posters, cross out the name 'Dain', write 'Thorin' on them, and gaze wistfully at them from time to time.

Fantastic Four

Jul 17 2011, 3:51pm

Post #350 of 351 (7185 views)
It's not a big issue [In reply to] Can't Post

Certainly compared to his human proportions. That said, i think a blue (or blue-rinsed beard) would be somewhat beneficial in making him look a little bit more like Balin's brother rather than his son. Balin looks so very old that it's hard to believe Dwalin is of the same generation. For me it's of secondary importance to getting the proportions right though, so i can take or leave the lack of blue.

Dr Death

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