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Mixel
Lindon
Jun 9 2011, 10:13am
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Investing in the Ring
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Sauron's body was destroyed two times, at sea and by Isildur, and after both times he managed to create another body and gain power again. However, his body was permanently destroyed by melting the Ring, and it is written that he was never able to gain power again. This suggests that if he had not put some of his power into the Ring, he would have been able to create a body again and try conquering Middle-Earth as many times as he wanted to, until Valar attack and throw him into emptiness. Storing power in the Ring was like buying stocks: it could have worked and produced massive profit, but someone else got hold of the ring, so the price plummeted and he lost all power. Would it not have been better for him to just safely keep the money on his bank account and try so many times that he succeeded?
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Demosthenes
Sr. Staff
Jun 9 2011, 1:33pm
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I think it may have been effectively an all or nothing proposition. To control the wielders of the other ringsand read their very thoughts -- beings who were in themselves very powerful -- required Sauron to pour much (almost all?) of his native power as a maia into creating a (controlling) ring of even greater power than the others.
It also seems to have worked similarly for Morgoth -- he invested much of himself to corrupt middle-earth and was certainly greatly weakened as a result.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 9 2011, 3:46pm
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Sauron's power was magnified by the Ring.
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As you say, it was a risk, an investment, with a big pay off. If Sauron hadn't done it, he wouldn't have been able to conquer Middle-earth. Actually, Sauron didn't really want to do it. He wanted to accept the amnesty offered by the Valar. But he was bound by terrible oaths to Morgoth, who isn't dead. Sauron's short-term goal was to conquer Middle-earth, but his long-term goal may be to free Morgoth. He couldn't do either unless he magnified his power.
Morgoth may not care about the cost to Sauron. Morgoth is more nihilistic than Sauron -- Sauron wanted to rule the world, Morgoth wanted to destroy it (probably because he had gone insane after realizing he couldn't rule it). Morgoth may see the end of the Third Age as a temporary setback -- Sauron is lost, but the elves and wizards are also finally driven away from Middle-earth, and the Age of Man is bound to go into decline and ruin eventually. Sauron's Ring is destroyed, but Morgoth's Taint is as strong as ever.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jun 9 2011, 6:07pm
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"And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them."
-The Silmarillion
"The Ring of Sauron is only one of the various mythical treatments of the placing of one's life, or power, in some external object, which is thus exposed to capture or destruction with disastrous results to oneself. If I were to 'philosophise' this myth, or at least the Ring of Sauron, I should say it was a mythical way of representing the truth that potency (or perhaps rather potentiality) if it is to be exercised, and produce results, has to be externalised and so as it were passes, to a greater or less degree, out of one's direct control."
-Letter 121
******************************************
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 9 2011, 7:27pm
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I think there's something in Morgoth's Ring about this.
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Somewhere I got the notion that Sauron's Ring allowed him to tap into the power of Morgoth's Taint, and was not just an externalization of Sauron's own native power. But maybe I just made it up.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 9 2011, 8:25pm
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There is also a side benefit to Sauron's Ring.
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Like the story of the magician who keeps his heart hidden in a vault, Sauron kept much of his life energy in the Ring. That meant that he couldn't be destroyed until the Ring was unmade, but Sauron made the Ring so seductive that it seemed impossible for anyone to destroy it. So impossible that it never even crossed Sauron's mind that anyone would attempt it. So although placing his life energy outside his body had a downside if he lost the Ring, it also had an upside -- particularly because the number of people who could really turn the Ring against Sauron was very few -- Tolkien once said only Gandalf the White could have succeeded.
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Cyberia
Lindon
Jun 10 2011, 3:04am
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The One Ring was precisely what enabled Sauron to return from the dead twice. It was Sauron's Horcrux. Maiar do not posses the power to overcome death. Upon death, good Maiar return to the Halls of Mandos, bad ones are scattered and disperse across Arda.....alive but permanently impotent until Adra is remade. This was witnessed twice in the books with the death of Sauron and Saurman. Even a being as powerful as Sauron, even with specific expertise as a necromancer (bringing things back from the dead) and even with the One Ring anchoring him to this world...still took thousands of years to return each time.
In order to control the three elven rings, Sauron had to make his own Ring an object of exceeding power, but that required placing the greater part (ie: the majority) of his own soul into the Ring. This had a downside, which he was aware, that if the One Ring was ever destroyed, he too would be. The defense mechanism against this occurring was simply the fact that the Ring was too powerful and too seductive to ever be destroyed by any being in Middle Earth.
NO ONE of ANY race could intentionally destroy the Ring. That's why Gandalf and Elrond called Frodo's journey a fool's chance. He simply hoped Frodo could get it to Mount Doom and left the destruction of the Ring to providence. Neither Frodo nor Gollum intentionally destroyed the Ring...
The folly the Sauron realized right before his death was in not destroying Samath Naur, the doorway into the mountain, nor even guarding it.
And yes, when Sauron wore the One Ring, his native power was amplified, not mearly augmented with a few additional powers, but amplified in general. One of Tolkien's letters says this specifically. Gandalf alluded to this when the Mouth of Sauron taunted him with Frodo's mithril coat. Gandalf realized quickly that if Sauron had the Ring, not only would Gandalf be aware of it via his ring, but everyone would be aware of it. The fact that they weren't, meant Sauron didn't have it.
(This post was edited by Cyberia on Jun 10 2011, 3:12am)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Jun 10 2011, 9:02am
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I have heard it said that somewhere in Letters Tolkien said that only Gandalf the White could use the One Ring. Yet in the tale, Sauron seems more worried about Aragorn using the Ring against him, after all it is him that the Mouth of Sauron seems to adress in the Black Gate opens and it is the heir of Elendil as a person that Sauron is most worried about. Also Gandalf seems pretty convinced when he is Gandalf the Grey that he could use the Ring when debating with Frodo in Shadow of the Past.
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Felagund
Mithlond
Jun 10 2011, 11:54am
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I don't think Tolkien mentions any oathes to Morgoth as the reason why Sauron is ultimately unable to recant at the end of the War of Wrath. It's Sauron's pride that does for him and the fact that in Middle-earth (albeit under the leadership of Morgoth) he got to call the shots and back in Valinor he'd just be another Maia, doing time for his sins.
Also, I doubt Sauron ever really thought he'd be able to rescue Morgoth from the Void. That presumably would have involved somehow defeating all the Valar and possibly even Eru - and the fact that Sauron only came out of hiding from the Valar several centuries into the Second Age spells out the power dynamic explicitly. In the same vein, I always saw his introduction of Morgoth worship to Númenor as a convenient tool - perhaps respectful of his former master but a tool nonetheless. Sauron had no qualms about insisting on his own god-hood amongst the Men of Darkness back in Middle-earth but had to change his tactics in Númenor because he couldn't get away from the fact that he had been humbled by Ar-Pharazôn. The Númenóreans, even the corrupted King's Men, were hardly going to worship someone who'd been beaten by their own king within living memory. Morgoth, on the other hand, was a more distant and remote symbol.
Basically, I reckon the forging of the Ring was all about Sauron and his desire to rule Middle-earth in his own name.
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Mixel
Lindon
Jun 10 2011, 4:13pm
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The One Ring was precisely what enabled Sauron to return from the dead twice
But he only made the Ring after the first return, so he had a natural ability to create a body again. This means that instead of investing in the Ring, he could have repeatedly returned and tried so many times that he succeeded.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 10 2011, 5:26pm
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The first time was the fall of Numenor. Sauron had made the Ring at that point. The second time was the Last Alliance.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 10 2011, 5:42pm
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Here's the passage I had in mind.
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From: The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" (emphasis added):
When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on fair hue again and did obeisance to Eonwe, the herald of Manwe, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. But it was not within the power of Eonwe to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there received the judgement of Manwe. Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, in might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith...therefore when Eonwe departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong. The word "bonds" is ambiguous, and there is no doubt that Sauron's pride was at work. But there seems to be something more to it than just Sauron's pride, something to do with Morgoth. And if Sauron was still, in fact, serving Morgoth, what could Morgoth want but to be freed, as foretold in the Second Prophecy of Mandos? And if Eru had not intervened, Sauron might have been able to at least control Middle-earth and Numenor (in fact, he did, as Ar-Pharazon's "advisor"), and could have contaminated Valinor with Morgoth's taint through the invasion of Ar-Pharazon -- even though the Valar would win that war, it would still contaminate Valinor to wage such a war. If even Valinor became corrupted with Morgoth's Taint, as Numenor had, then even the Valar would be vulnerable -- again, absent the direct intervention of Eru. That's why the Valar did not simply fight Ar-Pharazon, but laid down their power so that the world could be reshaped by Eru, and Valinor kept safe from Morgoth's Taint.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 10 2011, 5:47pm
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Even if Aragorn had successfully assaulted Mordor, though,
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he could not have unmade the Ring, and therefore could not have permanently killed Sauron. Perhaps he could have destroyed his body again, but with Aragorn under the influence of the Ring it seems more likely that Sauron would do obeisance, as he did to Ar-Pharazon, and with similarly-disastrous long-term results for Aragorn.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jun 10 2011, 5:47pm)
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jun 10 2011, 8:00pm
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Could Aragorn "assemble a great army"?
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There are serious logistical issues. Sauron has been planning his war for years. The armies from Harad, etc., have been preparing and marching for some time to join Sauron's host in Mordor.
Assuming Aragorn had taken the Ring in Dec. 3018, could he have assembled a host capable of competing with Sauron's? Assuming he summoned the Dwarves, Men of Dale and Elves from Mirkwood, Rivendell, and Lorien in addition to the Rohirrim and Gondorians, would that have been enough? How long would it take? Most importantly, could he have done this without Sauron's spies reporting it?
At the point at which Aragorn challenged Sauron with the palantir, if he had only just then acquired the Ring (from a hobbit seized from Saruman), Sauron must have known there was no army in existence capable of challenging him, which is presumably why he moved to start his assault early. But from Aragorn's perspective, at that point he wouldn't have had time to assemble much of an army any time soon.
Unless, of course, the Ring allowed him to assume control over the Southrons and other allies of Sauron. I wonder if that's what he feared?
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Felagund
Mithlond
Jun 10 2011, 10:30pm
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Sauron's mortal form and the function of the One Ring
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Was Sauron really only able to build a new body with the aid of the One Ring? I used to be convinced that Sauron was always strong enough to re-incarnate himself and it was only because he made the One Ring that he became uniquely vulnerable to permanent destruction. That was until I read Morgoth's Ring and all the complications of its 'Athrabeth', the 'Later Quenta' and 'Myths Transformed' chapters!
Tolkien is pretty clear that the Valar were able to shift between incarnate and 'unclad' forms at will, at least as long as they didn't expend too much of their native power (as Morgoth eventually did). This seems to be the case for the Maiar too - The Silmarillion mentions Olórin and various unnamed Maiar wandering about Valinor, changing back and forth from invisible spirit form to a physical form resembling an Elda. Sauron was famous for his shape-shifting powers in Middle-earth. But what happened when the physical form was killed? Tolkien wrote that Eldar could be reincarnated after the death of their bodies, as long as their spirits / fëar answered the 'Summons of Mandos' and then got the the all-clear from Manwë. This was the case for Finrod and Glorfindel, who was even given special dispensation to return to Middle-earth. But again, what about the Maiar? Could they, could Sauron, rebuild of their own accord, without the aid of an artifact such as the One Ring?
There are several examples of Maiar being 'slain', ie. forcibly losing their physical form - Sauron (twice), Saruman, Gandalf / Olórin, Gothmog, Durin's Bane and the Balrog destroyed by Glorfindel at Gondolin. Of these, only two return in a physical sense: Sauron and Gandalf. Sauron's first 'rebuild' occurs when in possession of the One Ring and this takes place within the 110 years between the fall of Númenor (3319) and Sauron's conquest of Minas Ithil (SA 3429). Sauron's second 'rebuild' takes place over the course of c. 1000 years and without him being in possession of the One Ring, although the power of the Ring is still present in Middle-earth. In Gandalf's case, he was 'sent back' with a new body or 'raiment', either by the Valar or Eru (a debate for another time!). The other Maiar mentioned above all appear to have been spiritually 'dispersed' on destruction, as Cyberia put it, or 'damned', as Tolkien put it - ie. their spirits "reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but more and more unable to make it effective physically" ('Myths Transformed', Morgoth's Ring).
With the Sauron and Gandalf examples you could argue both were special cases. Sauron is described by Tolkien as a particularly powerful Maia and if that isn't enough, the One Ring may have granted him the power to reincarnate himself. In Gandalf's case, he is given special dispensation to return to Middle-earth in physical form, in this respect at least not unlike Glorfindel. Also, it's worth noting that if there was a connection between Sauron's reincarnations and the One Ring, then it appears that he didn't actually have to possess the Ring. It was enough that it existed.
The only example there is of Sauron coming even near to death prior to the forging of the One Ring is when Huan had him by the neck during their fight at Tol Sirion. When Sauron is down for the count, Lúthien tells him that he can either surrender or be "stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost sent quaking back to Morgoth... 'There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn'" (The Silmarillion). From this statement it appears that the death of Sauron's physical form would be irreversible. Sauron's spirit obviously wouldn't be welcome in Valinor but Morgoth's predicted reaction is interesting. Either Morgoth wouldn't have had the inclination to help Sauron rebuild a physical form or he didn't have the power to do so. The scorn bit is easy enough to understand but not letting your right hand Maia dust himself off and have another go seems a waste of a good lieutenant. It therefore seems more likely that Morgoth didn't have the power to bring his corrupted Maiar back from the purely spirit world - otherwise he presumably would have done so with the 'high captain of Angband' Gothmog, who would have come in handy during the War of Wrath.
There's a nice contrast here with the fate of the Nazgûl after the destruction of their shapes in the waters of the Bruinen. At this point, the Nine return "empty and shapeless" to Mordor. After returning to Mordor the Nine are ready for duty again but the fact that they seem to have to return to Mordor before re-assuming physical shapes suggests a link with Sauron and the power of the One Ring. Sauron, it seems could effectively do what Morgoth couldn't for his own chief servants - give them new shapes after destruction.
All of this is beginning to look like an argument in favour of the One Ring being central to Sauron's ability to avoid dispersal or damnation. However, I still can't help noticing that Tolkien said nothing about this when describing elsewhere the powers of the One Ring. Emphasis is always on its power, at least on Sauron's finger, to control the thoughts and actions of others. It was an instrument for domination. There is no explicit mention I can find of it being the source of Sauron's ability to rebuild himself. Yes, it gave mortals unnatural long life but Sauron was immortal before he forged the One Ring and any such extension of years was useless to him and therefore unlikely to have been part of his purpose. Despite there being lots of interesting source material, my feeling is that this is one of those conundrums that Tolkien, by accident or design, left scattered about Middle-earth.
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Mixel
Lindon
Jun 10 2011, 10:30pm
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I thought that he made it after the first return, as Akallabeth is before Of the Rings of Power.
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squire
Gondolin
Jun 10 2011, 10:47pm
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Some of the contradictions you are noting in Tolkien's various descriptions of the interactions between Sauron and the One Ring, may have to do with when the descriptions were written. In The Lord of the Rings (written c. 1939-48) it is probable that Tolkien was really only interested in the Ring's power of domination and its fundamental link to Sauron's life-force. Later, in the ephemeral works you refer to (Akallabeth, Morgoth's Ring, Letters, etc., written c. 1948-late 1950s) Tolkien looked deeper into the nature of Sauron's immortality and reincarnations, naturally including the Ring as a factor.
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Mixel
Lindon
Jun 10 2011, 10:52pm
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Thanks, now I understand.
Tolkien left many conundrums by accident, and left it to us to gather information and make the conclusion on the side that has most evidence. Therefore I think that it is the Ring that gave him the power.
(This post was edited by Mixel on Jun 10 2011, 10:53pm)
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Felagund
Mithlond
Jun 10 2011, 11:12pm
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Ambiguous but I like the idea. I still reckon though that Sauron's ambitions were much more mundane - ruling Middle-earth and, perhaps, Númenor. The passage you cite also states that Sauron was so dismayed by the wrath of the Valar that he considered repenting. Having witnessed this wrath, I can't see how he thought he could beat them on his own, which he would have to do to free Morgoth. The 'bonds' laid upon him by Morgoth could simply refer to a pattern of behaviour, instilled through long years of service to Morgoth, that Sauron was unable to shake off. As I said in my previous post, I reckon any reverence or sense of duty to Morgoth on Sauron's part was for show in Númenor - a means to an end. Sauron's attitude to most mortals was that he was the god-king, no one else.
Also, doesn't the Second Prophecy of Mandos talk about Morgoth making his own way back through the Door of Night?
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Felagund
Mithlond
Jun 10 2011, 11:37pm
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Curious is right, Sauron had already forged the One Ring by the time he went to Númenor. The One Ring was made in SA 1600 and Ar-Pharazôn takes Sauron on holiday to Númenor in SA 3262. Tolkien writes that Sauron used the One Ring whilst in Númenor to "dominate the minds and wills of most of the Númenórean" (Letter 211).
The Nazgûl are even in the picture by this point (from SA 2251), including 3 corrupted Númenóreans.
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Felagund
Mithlond
Jun 10 2011, 11:47pm
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Yes, sequencing is key. The One Ring primarily as 'instrument of command and domination' continues to crop up quite late too though. A lengthy exposition on the power of the Ring, its uses and affects on various users was written in 1963 (Letter 246).
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 11 2011, 12:31am
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If Sauron was content to rule Numenor and Middle-earth,
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why did he urge Ar-Pharazon to attack Valinor?
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 11 2011, 12:40am
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There are several variations of
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the Second Prophecy of Mandos. But in The Shaping of Middle-Earth the prophecy says that "when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night." Presumably that will take a while, but what makes the Powers grow weary? Contact with Morgoth's Taint would presumably hasten that process -- that's why Valinor was created in the first place. Furthermore, after Morgoth returns there will be a Final Battle: "Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor." Wouldn't this mean Morgoth has an army?
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