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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"Will PJ's Tolkien Tinkering Make Or Break The Hobbit?"
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Jun 3 2011, 2:23am

Post #1 of 26 (3171 views)
"Will PJ's Tolkien Tinkering Make Or Break The Hobbit?" Can't Post

That's the big question posed by Ben Child of The Guardian!

To begin with, fans have long known that Peter Jackson's vision for his two-part adaptation of The Hobbit involves plans to include the activities of the White Council and the Necromancer of Dol Guldur, a rather sketchy storyline that minimally involves Gandalf, Saruman, and Galadriel, and occurs parallel to the main story of Bilbo's journey with the thirteen Dwarves to the Lonely Mountain.

But while it could be argued that the White Council storyline is at least canon, what can be said about the surprising inclusion of Frodo, his father Drogo, an older Bilbo (played by Sir Ian Holm), and Legolas?

In his article Ben poses genuine questions that most fans (on TheOneRing.net at least) have been pondering over for months now:
What shape will Sauron take – Tolkien offers no clues – as he will presumably not yet have assumed the form of a great eye in which he appears in Lord of the Rings?

Does this mean that the 89-year-old Christopher Lee has made the trip to New Zealand after all to reprise his role as Saruman?

Going further than questioning the practicalities of filming this prelude to the Lord of the Rings, the article delves deeper into the question at the heart of the much-anticipated cinematic phenomenon - by pulling us away from the central story, will the films present The Hobbit through a very different prism than what was originally intended?


Jun 3 2011, 9:42am

Post #2 of 26 (1732 views)
not surprising [In reply to] Can't Post

... this article deals pretty much with what I wrote at length about in my post 'Csokas and the second storyline' on Wednesday in the thread Movie Discussion - The Hobbit: 'The titles have been announced'. I daresay a great number of us are feeling that way, ambivalent, apprehensive yet hopeful. All we can do now is hope and pray that PJ and his team will get it right!

'Goodness gracious, you really are a messie!' 'Oh no, I'm not, these are all just mathoms...'


Jun 3 2011, 9:48am

Post #3 of 26 (1687 views)
It remains to be seen. [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ's tinkering with LOTR didn't "break" it, but it didn't improve it, either.

So we'll just have to wait and see.

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Jun 3 2011, 10:01am

Post #4 of 26 (1757 views)
Hobbit book is lineair, movies should not be [In reply to] Can't Post

First and foremost (again):
Books and movies are different media that require a totally different artistic approach. That results in scripts to differ from the story in the book. That happens with all books that have been filmed.

The Hobbit movies need a multiple/parallel story line to make them more immersive and interesting as a whole. The White Council and Dol Guldur enhancements are the most logical ones to expand upon in the movies as to create multiple (parallel) story lines.

The Hobbit book is effectively lineair (and thus less filmable then the Lord of the Rings). I think this was mentioned a few years back by PJ.

I don't have a shred of doubt that Peter, Fran, Phillipa and their entire crew will produce two outstanding movies again that are both very entertaining and enjoyable as movies, yet will stay true to the essence/spirit of the story of The Hobbit.




Jun 3 2011, 10:47am

Post #5 of 26 (1656 views)
I haven't read the LOTR books [In reply to] Can't Post

So i don't know how he broke or didn't break them. The 3 films were really successful, so i think he'll do something similar to The Hobbit.


Jun 3 2011, 11:43am

Post #6 of 26 (1669 views)
My greatest Fear... [In reply to] Can't Post

My greatest fear when it comes to all this stuff is simple -

Will all the additions take away from "the hobbit" story.

I'm all for adding in scenes like the white council - material we know from the Lord of the Rings books. I'm not even against the idea of Legolas appearing or anything. I just hope that the story of The Hobbit doesn't get lost with in all the additions etc...

Time will tell.

The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed

Grey Havens

Jun 3 2011, 11:47am

Post #7 of 26 (1600 views)
Must be a slow news day. [In reply to] Can't Post

Not a big fan of The Guardian for this reason. What's the point of this article?
Go ahead and tell WB and New Line Cinema that PJ could break The Hobbit. Yeah, kind of like LotR...oh wait...it won 17 Oscars, was critically acclaimed, well-received by (most) fans, and raked in nearly $3 billion. Yawn.

"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien


Jun 3 2011, 12:14pm

Post #8 of 26 (1656 views)
This whole belief The Hobbit is 'just' a children's novel [In reply to] Can't Post

The writers realized that The Hobbit is quite a long story: GDT said The Hobbit would already be a very long film without showing the White Council subplot. Furthermore The Hobbit's tone changes and gets bleaker as it progresses, and scenes that are quite fun in the novel would be exposed as harrowing once we remove the songs and Tolkien's comforting narration. That's why GDT and PJ expected it to be PG-13 like LOTR. The change from romp to expose about greed is why splitting in half so the darker White Council story would work together with the grimmer Hobbit half.

Also, this article seems to contain the misconception Bilbo sleeps during the battle. He actually witnesses quite a bit before he's knocked out. By that point in the film we'll have become familiar in seeing events not from his POV.

Tol Eressea

Jun 3 2011, 12:39pm

Post #9 of 26 (1612 views)
A rather poorly-researched article [In reply to] Can't Post

The writer appears to think that the first film will be released in December 2011, and seems unaware of the logical justifications for Legolas's appearance.


Jun 3 2011, 1:17pm

Post #10 of 26 (1587 views)
We'll see [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally, while PJ got carried away at times, many of the changes in LotR I didn't have a problem with, and some of the ones that I thought weren't ideal I can at least somewhat understand. My least favorite tweak in all the films will always be the removal of Denethor's Palantir - I don't even mind "Filmamir" too much, but I do have a problem with that omission.

But things could go wrong this time. I don't think they will, but I am a little nervous about it - even if he can use Unfinished Tales, he is working with some sparse source material for parts of the story.

(This post was edited by kzer_za on Jun 3 2011, 1:19pm)


Jun 3 2011, 2:14pm

Post #11 of 26 (1573 views)
Isn't it suggested... [In reply to] Can't Post

That Denathor has a Palantir. I mean it's subtle, but isn't there a line where he says that he knows more that he should know. Suggesting that he's got a source of info? I always took that as a very subtle hint towards the Palantir.

The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed

Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea

Jun 3 2011, 2:45pm

Post #12 of 26 (1522 views)
Oh, go read them! [In reply to] Can't Post

I highly recommend that you pick up the books and give them a shot. If you are not a reader for whatever reason, pick up the audio books.

Go on, new summer project! And.... go! :)

My Website! ~ My artwork and photography at dA

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.

Gollum the Great

Jun 3 2011, 3:29pm

Post #13 of 26 (1508 views)
They really are wonderful! [In reply to] Can't Post

And then it gives you two ways to enjoy LOTR - watch the movie with your friends or on weekends, and read the books on wet, rainy mornings... like this... hm... I think I need a good dose of FOTR. To the bookshelf! (and the Valar give me the grace to avoid that terrible entanglement called " GEOMETRY "Crazy

Lord Smagol? Gollum the Great? The Gollum! Eat fish every day, three times a day; fresh from the sea. Most Precious Gollum!

(This post was edited by Gollum the Great on Jun 3 2011, 3:29pm)

The Shire

Jun 3 2011, 3:51pm

Post #14 of 26 (1498 views)
That's a great point [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe PJ and company have said just because something wasn't included in the movie doesn't mean it didn't happen/it doesn't exist.


Jun 3 2011, 4:10pm

Post #15 of 26 (1455 views)
me too .. agreed! :-) // [In reply to] Can't Post



"You shall not pass!"


Jun 3 2011, 4:11pm

Post #16 of 26 (1469 views)
Answer: Make! // [In reply to] Can't Post



"You shall not pass!"


Jun 3 2011, 4:43pm

Post #17 of 26 (1487 views)
I hope PJ either doesn't read this type of article or at least can [In reply to] Can't Post

easily ignore the thousands of opinions. Try to make a film with everyone weighing in and analyzing every aspect of it. It is much harder with a known story, the expectations are great. However, he weathered the LOTR storm and he will this one as well. Like or dislike the final product is a future debate, I just want him focused on the job at hand (which I am sure he is). Every adaptation will disappoint somebody, so just make the best story you can while keeping the strong core.


Jun 3 2011, 4:45pm

Post #18 of 26 (1462 views)
Good golly, this is so true. *mods up.* [In reply to] Can't Post

I expect this knowledge is one of the reasons he didn't want to do it for so long.

Permanent address: Into the West

Must. Have. The Precious! Give us the LotR EE Blu-ray Ultimate Box Set!


Jun 3 2011, 4:50pm

Post #19 of 26 (1479 views)
He does say "I have seen more than you know" [In reply to] Can't Post

But it's really just a line thrown in for the book fans, it doesn't actually explain anything about his character. The problem is that without the palantir, Denethor appears to be completely insane and irrational for absolutely no reason. I don't have a problem with John Noble's performance, I don't even have a problem with them making Denethor meaner than in the book, but leaving out the palantir turns him into little more than a caricature. He's supposed to be tragic, not just a madman.

(This post was edited by kzer_za on Jun 3 2011, 4:51pm)


Jun 3 2011, 4:55pm

Post #20 of 26 (1458 views)
So do I. [In reply to] Can't Post

He has to be able to get on and do the thing in the way that seems best to him and the people round him. They have to believe in what they're doing - to try to take everyone's objections, suggestions, ideas and complaints on board at this stage would be crippling.

The simple answer to the question posed by the article is 'Yes', but we won't know which until we've actually seen the films. (And I'm pretty confident that they will be really good films which will please most people most of the time.)

Registered User

Jun 3 2011, 5:08pm

Post #21 of 26 (1470 views)
The best way to describe these films (IMHO) [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the best way to describe these two upcoming films is this:

Peter Jackson is not making a faithful adaptation of "The Hobbit". He is making two prequels to his Lord of the Rings films, based on "The Hobbit". It's "The Hobbit" in the context, world, feel, attitude, etc of the films.

Personally, I'm okay with that.

Kangi Ska

Jun 3 2011, 5:40pm

Post #22 of 26 (1457 views)
I certainly hope you are incorect. [In reply to] Can't Post

"Peter Jackson is not making a faithful adaptation of "The Hobbit". "

I think he is making an extended faithful adaptation of the Hobbit (At least I hope he is) by adding material that is mentioned in the Hobbit but not elaborated upon.

He is making two prequels to his Lord of the Rings films, based on "The Hobbit" "

I believe he is making one movie in two installments that will be set up and framed as a sequel to the Lord of the Rings in that the Older Bilbo and Frodo are involved. The Hobbit will be told as a tale about an adventure that happened long before the War of the Ring started but from the perspective of the two Hobbits after Frodo's quest to carry the One Ring to Mordor has begun.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Registered User

Jun 3 2011, 5:48pm

Post #23 of 26 (1437 views)
We're basically describing the same thing [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me explain it this way:

In "The Hobbit", the elves come off as very jovial creatures singing silly songs while sitting in trees. In LOTR, not so much. They don't feel quite the same, even though obviously they're meant to be the same - Elrond and all that. I'm not saying there won't be elves sitting in trees singing... but I think that whatever happens, these movies will feel like the other films, at the expense of feeling exactly like the book.

As for sequel/prequel: The use of a framing device doesn't make it not a prequel.

Registered User

Jun 3 2011, 7:01pm

Post #24 of 26 (1412 views)
Legolas [In reply to] Can't Post

May I just point out, as you hint at, that just because Legolas' NAME was not mentioned in the Hobbit, hardly means he would not have BEEN there - the court of the Woodland King (oh, also not named in the Hobbit) is there & I'm thinking that perhaps the CROWN PRINCE might actually be a member of that court....
Legolas was probably the one leading the pranksters in the forest .... LOL
So, yeah, I fully expected Legolas to show up in these movies - in fact if he HADN'T that would have been a continuity problem.

Teleri ferch Nyfain

Registered User

Jun 3 2011, 9:30pm

Post #25 of 26 (1431 views)
My only problem with Jackson doing the film [In reply to] Can't Post

Jackson did a great job in a sense but one thing that sticks out to me and I'm not sure if anyone else felt the same but in the Return of the King when Gandalf confronts the Witch King in the book he stands there without moving at all but in the film Jackson has Gandalf cowering and falling down like he's deathly afraid of him which bothered me? I hope in the hobbit he doesn't take to much poetic license and change what Tolkien intended. Just my opinion though.

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