|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Auraran
Menegroth
Apr 15 2011, 7:16pm
Post #1 of 38
(1552 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Three Rings of Power together
|
Can't Post
|
|
I have a question and some thoughts regarding the One Ring that Bilbo discovered in Gollum’s cave, and which he obviously had on his person when he entered Rivendell on his homeward journey. Tolkien tells us that Gandalf and Bilbo entered Rivendell on May 1 and left it one week later, presumably on May 8.
First of all, we know that "Evil things did not come into that valley," and I have always presumed that since Elrond wore Vilya, one of the three Elvish rings of power, that the power of his ring reinforced his natural power and created something similar to the Girdle of Melian around the sheltered valley of Rivendell – sort of a force field, if you will, to keep out evil things. But wouldn’t it surely have also excluded the One Ring, the most evil "thing" in Middle First, apart from Sauron himself?
Another thing, while Elrond, Gandalf, and Bilbo were sitting around talking for one entire week, sharing details of their recent adventures, three of the most powerful rings on the planet were gathered in the same room, mere feet away from each other – Elrond with Vilya, Gandalf secretly wearing the Elvish ring Narya, the Ring of Fire, and little Bilbo sitting there with the One Ring itself. And here’s the shocking thought: I can just imagine Elrond, when hearing about invisible ring Bilbo had found, sticking out his hand and saying, "Here, let me have a look at it. Don’t worry, I’ll give it back."
It’s hard to imagine that Elrond’s ring and Gandalf’s ring weren’t going crazy, picking up the signals from the dominant ring. Very likely, this was partially due to the fact that Bilbo never wore the Ring while he was in Rivendell. It has also been proposed before that the One Ring was "sleeping" at this time. It was not yet actively seeking its master. But imagine being so very dormant that not a single ring alarm went off while both Elrond and Gandalf was sitting there, bearing their rings of power.
Perhaps part of the answer also lies in the subtlety of the One Ring itself. As Gandalf said in LOTR, the chapter The Shadow of the Past, "A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo." Could it be that the One Ring deliberately "lay low" and went dormant so as not to attract the slightest attention to itself? I don’t recall this potential ability ever being discussed, but it certainly would fit in with Sauron’s deviousness and subtlety when creating the rings in the first place – and the fact that he appeared among the elves as a benign teacher and giver of gifts. It seems logical, doesn’t it, that he would’ve built this talent into the ring he created for himself?
|
|
|
Alientraveller
Menegroth
Apr 15 2011, 7:44pm
Post #2 of 38
(1043 views)
Shortcut
|
No need to find a plot hole when the most logical solution is there. The Ring didn't want to expose itself. Nor did it need to exert itself over the two Rings, and perhaps it couldn't without the sheer force of Sauron's will wielding it. (I've made the One sound like a DC power ring.)
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Gondolin
Apr 15 2011, 7:45pm
Post #3 of 38
(1035 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Three were together again...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
...when Frodo brought the One to Rivendell, of course. Moreover, someone handled it in the course of putting it on the chain around Frodo's neck. It's easier to make excuses for Bilbo's visit, because that was much earlier and one could assume that the One was still pretty dormant then.
However, my understanding is that since Celebrimbor made the Elven Rings without Sauron's knowledge or involvement, they would not be especially sensitive to the One, certainly so long as neither Bilbo nor Frodo put it on in their presence.
Join us in the Reading Room for LotR The Two Towers, Book IV!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
|
|
|
squire
Gondolin
Apr 15 2011, 7:47pm
Post #4 of 38
(1037 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Good analysis, but perhaps a bit overdone
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I would tend to shy away from ideas like the Elvish Rings "picking up signals" or the One Ring "setting off ring alarms" due to mutual proximity, at the time that Bilbo passed through Rivendell on his way home from his Hobbit adventures. From a story point of view, such a scenario absolutely ruins the Lord of the Rings trilogy, whose entire premise is that the Wise, and especially Gandalf, had no serious idea that the hobbit's ring was important until Bilbo went all paranoid on Gandalf after his farewell party. The idea is ridiculous on the face of it, and Tolkien quite smartly steers the story around the plot-hole, especially in the seemingly revelatory Chapter 2.
Explanations for Elrond's and Gandalf's insouciance? The best we can do is to admit that we do not know the exact magical relationship between the Elven Rings, and the One Ring, during the years that Sauron was dormant. "Signals" and "alarms" are very un-Tolkienian, to be sure - he tends to present more subtle forms of perception. One angle you might consider is that given in The Lord of the Rings, wherein Frodo is able blithely to carry the Ring for months in full knowledge of its identity: that hobbits have the least "lust for power" of any creature in Middle-earth. We could argue that the One was completely "uninflamed" while in Bilbo's possession at Rivendell, and consequently was "imperceptible" to the Elven Rings. Another fun one could be the argument that Elrond and Gandalf indeed felt something Sauron-ish in the atmosphere, but attributed it to the recent "distortions in the Force" caused by the attack on Dol Guldur!
From a literary analysis angle, of course, the real reasons are that 1) when he wrote The Hobbit, Tolkien had no idea a) that Bilbo's Ring was in any way dangerous or even particularly extraordinary and b) that there were such things as Elven Rings that were subject to the One Ring; and 2) he never went back and rewrote The Hobbit to avoid this odd conjunction, because no matter what he wrote instead, to the degree that he introduced the idea of the Rings of Power into The Hobbit, Gandalf would still seem to be a fool for ignoring his own intuition for so many wasted decades.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
|
|
|
Auraran
Menegroth
Apr 15 2011, 9:08pm
Post #5 of 38
(1008 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Yes I think the answer is simple
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Sauron himself would have to have been wearing the One Ring for those wearing the Elvish rings of power to have sensed the presence of the One Ring. That's what happened in the very beginning, remember? As soon as Sauron put on his ring, the elves wearing the three rings immediately sensed what had happened, and removed their rings. Up till then, although they had been wearing their rings, they hadn't even sensed the existence of Sauron's ring.
Only after Sauron had lost his ring, did they put their own rings back on. And they kept them on, despite the fact that Gollum/Smeagol was wearing One Ring much of the time after that.
|
|
|
Auraran
Menegroth
Apr 15 2011, 9:13pm
Post #6 of 38
(993 views)
Shortcut
|
You wrote, "since Celebrimbor made the Elven Rings without Sauron's knowledge or involvement, they would not be especially sensitive to the One."
I think you've hit on something! It was simply not part of their design to be able to sense the One Ring. Since Celebrimbor had no idea that Sauron was even making his ruling ring, and Sauron, for his part, had no idea that Celebrimbor was making the three Elvish rings, there was no supernatural connection between them.
|
|
|
Auraran
Menegroth
Apr 15 2011, 9:23pm
Post #7 of 38
(966 views)
Shortcut
|
And, of course, I agree with you when you say, "I would tend to shy away from ideas like the Elvish Rings "picking up signals" or the One Ring "setting off ring alarms" due to mutual proximity." I didn't mean actual radio signals or alarms in the modern sense of the word, but was merely using a metaphor to describe what should probably better be referred to as a "connection." Or as Elizabeth called it, a "sensitivity" to one another.
I like your somewhat humorous thought here as well: "Another fun one could be the argument that Elrond and Gandalf indeed felt something Sauron-ish in the atmosphere, but attributed it to the recent "distortions in the Force" caused by the attack on Dol Guldur!"
I think that I am pretty well convinced that between (a) Bilbo not putting on the ring, and (b) the possibility that the One Ring was dormant while in Rivendell, explains things well enough, and fills in any potential plot-holes. Those two combined factors kept it below the radar.
Whoops! Scratch that last comment.... 
|
|
|
Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 15 2011, 10:13pm
Post #8 of 38
(979 views)
Shortcut
|
that the Three Rings "sense" anything? We know that Sauron invested some of his own power into the One, and so there is a connection between him and his minions (who are always under his influence) and the One, but the power of the One by itself is nothing like the power of the One being worn and actively used by Sauron to dominate the wills of others.
From all I've seen, the Three were made as tools to enhance the abilities of the wearer, and the wearers certainly appear to have greater perception than the average person (being among the "Wise") but I don't see any indication that the rings themselves have any sort of innate active power. Do the Wise have the ability to sense the presence of the One without their rings? If not, I don't see any reason why they should when they're wearing them. The Three were not made in reference to the One...it was made in reference to them. I don't think the Three would have any reaction to the One when it is not being actively used to interfere with the minds and wills of their wearers. Even if Frodo were wearing the One, he would not be attempting to gain control of them. In fact, none of the hobbits ever really used the Ring at all...it made them invisible when they wore it, but they did not use it. Frodo threatened to use it against Gollum - but didn't. Sam was tempted to use it but didn't. Bilbo wore it to escape notice, but never used it against anyone (he didn't even know he could). Even when Frodo claimed it, he never got as far as using it.
I really don't think the rings are homing beacons for each other. Sauron is magnetic north for the One, and it's invested with his nature to the extent that it attracts and corrupts those who wear it, but I don't buy into them as little artificial intelligences.
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
|
|
|
Auraran
Menegroth
Apr 15 2011, 10:36pm
Post #9 of 38
(994 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Enhancing the power of the wearers
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
You're right, and I didn't mean that the rings acted like "homing beacons" to one another. That was perhaps a clumsy metaphor on my part, and I understand that the main purpose of the rings was to enhance the powers of those who bore them. I hope that was brought out clearly in my subsequent posts.
I would naturally tend to agree that the rings in themselves – even the One Ring – are not "sentient beings" in themselves. However, there does seem to be some ambiguity regarding this point, and I'm not sure what to make of it.
As Gandalf said in LOTR, the chapter The Shadow of the Past, "A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo." And in that same chapter, Gandalf describes the One Ring acting in a very sentient manner – waking up, seeking its master, deliberately shrinking and growing, slipping off someone's finger , and "looking after itself."
|
|
|
KAOS82
Nargothrond
Apr 16 2011, 12:17am
Post #10 of 38
(966 views)
Shortcut
|
Sauron knew of the rings after the creation of the One and didn't waste time to attack Elves (siege of Rivendell but Sauron is defeated)
if Celebrimbor would not create the 3 rings, then Sauron's dominion would have been total but since there's the presence of the 3 Sauron had always to fear them because he didn't have power over them
TÚRIN TURAMBAR DAGNIR GLAURUNGA & NIENOR NÍNIEL
|
|
|
Plurmo
Nargothrond
Apr 16 2011, 1:05am
Post #11 of 38
(1011 views)
Shortcut
|
"But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren."
The One had a lonesome life for an entire Age at the bottom of Anduin. Perhaps because of being infused with Sauron's spiritual substance the One started thinking for himself unlike his brethren Rings, which were never left alone and were always in close contact with powerful and caring guardians. After the One intentionally left Isildur it entered in his solitude and slowly grew in corrupt thought. By all account the One has a "will of its own" and powers of perception that it bestows on the wearer (independently on him wearing it) as could be inferred by the talk between Galadriel and Frodo beside the Mirror.
Based on the analogy between the four rings and the mightier of the Valar, Melkor, Manwë, Varda and Ulmo, I would say that it took the combined presence of Vilya (Manwë) and Nenya (Varda) to perceive the One. Pure speculation, of course.
In any case it cannot be forgotten that the finding of the One by Bilbo (and perhaps less successfully by Déagol) was the work of greater Powers. One has to take into consideration the purpose of the Powers and the intentions of the One in the analysis of the circumstances surrounding its "revelation" to the Emissary of the Valar.
And thanks, Auraran, for the work on the length of the tunnel inside Erebor on "The Long, Long, Long Secret Tunnel" thread. Very interesting your dialogue with PhantomS on that.
|
|
|
GAndyalf
Doriath
Apr 16 2011, 4:04am
Post #12 of 38
(955 views)
Shortcut
|
|
A few more thoughts on this...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The issues have been well-discussed but a few things got left out.
Regardless of anyone sussing anyone else out with Rings and who had 'em, why didn't the One, regardless of who knew about it, seek a more powerful wielder? The One regularly abandoned those it didn't find useful and with two powerful potential wielders right within its grasp - especially as they were at that point unsuspecting - the perfect opportunity was missed.
Another interesting point is that the Rings of Power - all of them by the way it reads in the book - give power according to the stature of the wearer. That leads me to believe that they DO in fact give varied powers that the wielders do not possess themselves but that in order to get the powers that the wielder has to have a certain amount of power themselves. Thus, even when someone has the Ring - the One - Sauron could still overcome them (maybe) if they weren't of sufficient power themselves, though that's left as ambiguous. Perhaps by initiating a Song of Power, such as what he used to defeat Finrod Felagund, counting on whomever he was challenging not being as powerful as Felagund was in that so even in his weakened (non-Ring-wearing) state he could still defeat them as in "but in this Sauron had the mastery."?
Lastly it's interesting to me that assuming the Ring took awhile to leave a bearer (the most logical reason for it not leaving Bilbo for one of the powerful in Rivendell) then why not, after several years, would it not leave Bilbo for the Sackville Bagginses, since they were very obviously more disposed to the Ring's molding? We can assume that this is why the Ring so quickly betrayed Deagol so this makes for an interesting point.
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
|
|
|
xy
Nargothrond
Apr 16 2011, 1:22pm
Post #13 of 38
(963 views)
Shortcut
|
We know Gandalf has one of the Three, just like Galadriel and Elrond.
Perhaps it would take the combined presence of all three Rings to detect The One Ring ? Also neither Frodo or Bilbo wore the Ring actively in Rivendell which might help.
If Sauron isn't dormant in LOTR, neither is the Ring. I'm not convinced by that theory.
The bigger question is - and I wonder how the Hobbit movie part 2 will adress this, since they did say the end of the Hobbit ties directly into FOTR - what was Gandalf doing in the decades between Hobbit and LOTR re: the mysterious ring Bilbo found in a dark cave that made him invisible ?
(This post was edited by xy on Apr 16 2011, 1:23pm)
|
|
|
Auraran
Menegroth
Apr 16 2011, 3:13pm
Post #14 of 38
(964 views)
Shortcut
|
Thanks, Plurmo! Re: "Long, Long, Long Tunnel," I never cease to be amazed at the details that emerge when I look closely at the text of the Hobbit. For a supposedly "simple" text, it shows surprising complexity and consistency at a deeper level.
Thanks also for your quote: "But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren." I'm not sure, however, whether this quote about Melkor from the Silmarillion can be anything more than loosely applied to the One Ring of Sauron. However, there does seem to be very strong evidence that Sauron's ring had some level of sentiency and awareness.
I don't think that Sauron ever anticipated it being lost, or that he built a kind of "homing device" into it against such a possibility. And even though he bent all his will toward finding the Ring, he doesn't seem to have had a psychic connection with it unless someone put it on – and that was only once it was awake. Before it was awake, Bilbo was able to wear it to great effectiveness right within Mirkwood itself, without Sauron picking up any signals.
Of course, he was under attack at that very time by the White Wizards. So perhaps he was just too distracted.
|
|
|
Auraran
Menegroth
Apr 16 2011, 3:28pm
Post #15 of 38
(928 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Seeking a more powerful bearer
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
That's a very good question! However, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the One Ring was not simply seeking a more powerful host – as if its will was to dominate Middle Earth as effectively through whoever happened to be the best available strongman – but rather, it was actively seeking to find and return to its master, Sauron. (Who, after all, would be the most powerful entity of all once they were rejoined.)
It had, after all, been infused with Sauron's power. It had a deep link – and loyalty, if you will – to Sauron. And the will that it imposed on others was probably not it's "own" will, but, in some way, Sauron's will. Just guessing here.
As for the ring abandoning those that it did not find useful, I believe that "useful" in this case would mean someone who could help it reunite with its master, Sauron. Gollum simply hid out in a cave for centuries. That was not useful. Bilbo kept it in the Shire, barely using it. That also was not helping the ring return to Sauron.
I find it amazing that Gandalf realized clearly that the ring would dominate whoever wore it, but Saruman did not – but actively sought the Ring to (so he hoped) make himself master of Middle Earth.
|
|
|
Gwytha
Nargothrond
Apr 16 2011, 3:39pm
Post #16 of 38
(935 views)
Shortcut
|
Regardless of anyone sussing anyone else out with Rings and who had 'em, why didn't the One, regardless of who knew about it, seek a more powerful wielder? The One regularly abandoned those it didn't find useful and with two powerful potential wielders right within its grasp - especially as they were at that point unsuspecting - the perfect opportunity was missed.
The Ring wanted to get back to it's master, Sauron, no one else, however powerful, would have suited it. It found new bearers and used them for that purpose alone, to get back to Sauron. It dumped Gollum when it did because Sauron was gaining power and calling out from nearby Mirkwood. If anyone powerful enough to wield the Ring against Sauron had been near, it would have hidden from them, at least if it could.
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!
|
|
|
Gwytha
Nargothrond
Apr 16 2011, 3:44pm
Post #17 of 38
(932 views)
Shortcut
|
Sorry, GAndyelf, I was trying to quote you and now it looks like I plagiarized you. How the heck do these quote things work anyway, Do you have to read directions or something?
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!
|
|
|
Gwytha
Nargothrond
Apr 16 2011, 4:04pm
Post #18 of 38
(923 views)
Shortcut
|
If Gandalf was not mistaken in "The Shadow of the Past," (and it wouldn't have been the first time), it was Sauron, not the Ring, that was dormant. The Ring was quite capable of acting on its own to slip off a finger when it was timely to do so in the interest of getting back to Sauron whether Sauron was inactive(Isildur and Deagol) or awake and "sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood." (Bilbo) Apparently the Ring had an active Sauron detector, that worked if Sauron was close enough(and I'm referring to a metaphorical Sauron detector, not like a chip or somethiing). And it seems to have worked better than whatever Sauron had that equipped him for detecting the Ring.
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!
|
|
|
Gwytha
Nargothrond
Apr 16 2011, 4:19pm
Post #19 of 38
(932 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Saruman's pride and Gandalf's wisdom
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Gandalf understood the ring would dominate anyone who wore it because he understood the Middle Earth equivalent of human nature(is there a word for that in elvish? ie, dwarf-hobbit-human-elf-ent etc nature?). He had the wisdom and humility to recognize his own vulnerability to the Ring. Saruman's pride kept him from seeing this in himself. Not unlike Boromir's(and Denethor's) belief that "the doughty men" of Gondor would not allow their will to be subdued by a ring of power.
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!
|
|
|
Felagund
Nargothrond
Apr 16 2011, 5:15pm
Post #20 of 38
(971 views)
Shortcut
|
|
enhancing the wielder's native power
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Reckon you're spot on Silverlode. Unless someone was actively trying to use the One Ring to dominate the wearers of other Rings of Power, those wearers wouldn't be able to sense the presence of the One Ring - thus Bilbo 's return to Rivendell from Erebor doesn't seem to set off Narya (Gandalf) and Vilya (Elrond).
On the issue of the Three Rings enhancing their owners' native abilities, this has some parallels well with Tolkien's description of the bearers of the Nine, in The Silmarillion: "And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thralldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's" ('Of the Rings of Power in the Third Age'). Native strength and strength of will are part of the mix for the Nine Rings and the same probably went for the wielders of the Three.
Speaking of Rings of Power enhancing the wearer's innate power, I've wondered for a while now as to what kind of boost Sauron got, if any, from wearing the three rings he managed to recover from the Dwarves - including the apparently special Ring of Thrór, which Celebrimbor may have given to Durin III himself. Sauron helped Celebrimbor forge the Seven (as well as the Nine) but there's no evidence to suggest that Sauron invested any of his own will / essence in these, in contrast to the One Ring. This means that in reacquiring a lesser Ring of Power, Sauron wasn't simply reacquiring power that he'd already spent. So if Sauron wore any of the Seven once he'd recovered them, would he have experienced an increase in his own power? You could argue that, as a Maia, any enhancement from a lesser Ring of Power would have been too trivial to make a difference for Sauron. However, Gandalf, also a Maia, seems to have drawn some benefit from wearing Narya. Again, the answer could simply be that the Three Rings were in a totally different league to the Seven (with the possibly exception of the Ring of Thrór?). Lots of questions and speculation!
|
|
|
Plurmo
Nargothrond
Apr 16 2011, 7:55pm
Post #21 of 38
(973 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The specifics of ring lore are beyond our knowledge,
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
but because of the obvious similarity between the powers of Narya the ring of hope and resistance with the works of Ulmo* I am bound to think that they were made with the purpose of emulating "valaric" qualities, including the balance of powers between them (that's why Narya is also very independent of the others.) In any case remember that Tolkien qualifies the making of the three as another fall for the elves, or almost, a sign that they had attempted to be/do something beyond the natural order.
With that in mind it is only natural to think that the making of the One was based in an idea of emulating Morgoth's powers. Morgoth is the only way up for Sauron. To enhance his powers Sauron necessarilly would have to draw power from the greater source at his disposal, not Eru, of course, but Morgoth's Ring. In this I'm trying to give an answer to Felagund too, that Gandalf had an increase in power because Narya draws from Ulmo, way above Gandalf, but Sauron wearing the One draws power from Morgoth and there is nothing above that, the lesser rings would make absolutely no difference to the incarnate for of Evil (Sauron, in this case) if he was wearing the One.
Now the Ring of Thrór... if it draws from Aulë it would be a mighty help for the dwarves. Perhaps there was reason the only friendship between elves and dwarves was at Eregion. If Celebrimbor made for them an Aulë ring, with all the knowledge the Noldor had about that Valar...
*the whole behaviour of Gandalf is closely resembling of Ulmo, always abroad, always active, and notice how Ulmo was the architect of the resistance to Morgoth the same way Gandalf was to Sauron. There was a reason Narya was sent to Cirdan and why it was him, the closer person to Ulmo in Middle-earth, who passed it to Gandalf. Unlike his siblings, Ulmo is always present, always caring, always meddling.
PS: that was a reply to "I'm not sure, however, whether this quote about Melkor from the Silmarillion can be anything more than loosely applied to the One Ring of Sauron." There seems to be more than a loose connection there, but to answer that we would need Saruman, not Gandalf.
|
|
|
GAndyalf
Doriath
Apr 16 2011, 11:03pm
Post #22 of 38
(928 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Quick note on the difference between Sauron with a dwarf-ring...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
And Gandalf w/Narya: Sauron had his full Maiar power whereas all of the Istari were on reduced power when they were sent back to Middle-earth (and I still don't know why that was done, my opinion being if you're gonna send 'em back to battle someone, sending them at partial power doesn't - to me - make sense).
But the primary purpose of the rings of power were to dominate the races they were made for so with the dwarves being 'particularly resistant' to this it would seem to me that the Seven were more of a 'failed experiment' and not of much use to anyone.
Finally, it seems curious to me that there were 3 rings for the elves, 7 for dwarves, and 9 for men. I speculate that it's because of numbers - elves being even by that point in the 2nd Age the least numerous peoples and men the most. That said, it would seem to indicate quite a large number of dwarves which doesn't seem at all reflected in LotR. Another possibility, I suppose, would be that even in the forging of the Seven Sauron may have been 'hedging his bets' on whether the dwarven rings would truly be enough to ensnare them. Perhaps he intended for the dwarves to fight amongst themselves and so weaken them until perhaps 3 or so Rings remained for them?
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
|
|
|
GAndyalf
Doriath
Apr 16 2011, 11:22pm
Post #23 of 38
(904 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Yes but it took other 'carriers'...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
to GET back to Sauron!
Gwytha writes: The Ring wanted to get back to it's master, Sauron, no one else, however powerful, would have suited it. It found new bearers and used them for that purpose alone, to get back to Sauron. It dumped Gollum when it did because Sauron was gaining power and calling out from nearby Mirkwood. If anyone powerful enough to wield the Ring against Sauron had been near, it would have hidden from them, at least if it could.
Most seem to think Sauron hadn't recovered enough to actively be seeking the One at that point (I think that he still believed it was either in Gondor or possibly in Anduin depending upon when he discovered Isildur's fate). I think it abandoned Smeagol independently of anything from Sauron but simply found an opportunity to find a new bearer. If I had to guess I'd say the Ring's "intent" if such it could be would be for an orc to get ahold of it. In that I think the movie is correct in inserting that it was found by someone the Ring did NOT intend. I disagree that the One would have hidden from anyone of power because I don't think that eventuality would have ever been considered, especially since Sauron couldn't conceive of anyone throwing it away it seems then to follow that the Ring would not have turned anyone away either and it seems to fit more that it would abandon anyone weaker in search of the stronger which would be a logical path to Sauron, the most powerful being in Middle-earth at the time. Even with what's been written we still don't know for SURE that Gandalf, Elrond, or Galadriel would have defeated Sauron WITH the One. Galadriel certainly believes she would have defeated him but as Gandalf says on an unrelated subject, "Even the very Wise cannot see all ends."
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
|
|
|
Gwytha
Nargothrond
Apr 17 2011, 12:53am
Post #24 of 38
(926 views)
Shortcut
|
Yes, as Gandalf explained to Frodo on that morning in the Shire so long ago, when he was telling him the history behind the Ring, "There was more than one power at work." Gandalf goes on to say "So now, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo from the Shire!" Gandalf seems to be suggesting that the Ring was responding to Sauron's "dark thought," but does he know this or is he speculating?
It hadn't occurred to me that the Ring would seek to get to Sauron through a stronger bearer, but I think that's a very valid point. I agree there is no certainty that any of the bearers of the three would have been able to defeat Sauron with the One. At the same time, Sauron was thought(by Gandalf and Aragorn, at least) to fear the possibility of someone strong emerging to use the Ring against him. And either way, maybe the Ring would have been happy with any old potential Dark Lord that happened to come stomping along. Hey, do we need a Ring psychologist here? Or a user's manual?
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!
|
|
|
GAndyalf
Doriath
Apr 17 2011, 2:13am
Post #25 of 38
(916 views)
Shortcut
|
Gwytha writes, in part: "It hadn't occurred to me that the Ring would seek to get to Sauron through a stronger bearer, but I think that's a very valid point. I agree there is no certainty that any of the bearers of the three would have been able to defeat Sauron with the One. At the same time, Sauron was thought(by Gandalf and Aragorn, at least) to fear the possibility of someone strong emerging to use the Ring against him. And either way, maybe the Ring would have been happy with any old potential Dark Lord that happened to come stomping along. Hey, do we need a Ring psychologist here? Or a user's manual? "
It seems to me it would want a WEAKER bearer, meaning a bearer more susceptible to evil. But I understand your point. I think, however, that the ring wouldn't necessarily want a strong nor weak bearer in your sense but would want a weak one in the sense that it could be bent to the will of the Ring and in THAT way get to Sauron much more quickly. In that way the "Power" at work that Gandalf spoke of was likely putting the Will of Eru to work by ensuring that whatever the Ring did and wherever it went that the ones best suited to THWARTING the Ring and Sauron's plans were the ones to find it. I agree that Sauron feared the powerful getting ahold of the One because only then COULD he be defeated, though I'd wager though he feared it it still would not be a certain thing, only that it certainly would be in DOUBT if it were one of those three. I think "any old potential Dark Lord" would do and perhaps the reason it didn't abandon Bilbo or Frodo is because since Sauron didn't know anyone would be able to resist the Ring, even for a short (relatively) period of time, perhaps the Ring also had the vanity to believe that it ultimately would win the battle of wills. After all, it did and only an act of pity, also beyond the understanding of Sauron and therefore the One, was what saved Middle-earth after all.
"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009
|
|
|
|
|
1
