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Melissa
Ossiriand
Apr 4 2011, 11:28am
Post #1 of 42
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Tolkien and Wicca
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The publication of LotR coincided quite closely with the formation of Wicca, and the founder of the latter, Gerald Gardner (1884-1964), was a close contemporary of Tolkien. Regardless of Tolkien's own religious beliefs, is it likely that his works influenced the development of Wicca and Neopaganism in general?
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Olwe
Ossiriand
Apr 4 2011, 2:11pm
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You noticed that too! Like I said in a rather fierce flame war, I feel that this is quite a bit of cognitive dissonance, i.e., Tolkien is supposedly a devout Christian, but wow! what a pagan/wiccan vibe his writing puts off. As I said in one post, I first read LOTR back in 1975 in a very remote corner of Bavaria, a sort of mini-Middle Earth. I said the books didn't make me want to go down into the village to the Catholic church; instead, they made me want to explore the woods, the castle ruins, the mystical vibe of the whole region.
The library and bookstore shelves fairly groan with the weight of "scholarly after-market" books telling us how Tolkien was a great Christian and how he didn't mean anything wiccan or animist and anyone taking it so is all wrong and deluded. Well, I do indeed get a big pagan vibe from reading Tolkien. Whether it conforms to some "textbook" definition of wicca, I'm not sure. But yes, Tolkien gives the animist-pagan world a big boost, IMHO.
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Idril Celebrindal
Dor-Lomin
Apr 4 2011, 3:57pm
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They share a reverence for nature
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Tolkien's writing and philosophy certainly inspired environmentalists and preservationists, so it's no surprise that it inspired Wiccans as well.
Tolkien's love and respect for nature complemented his Christian faith. Christianity isn't incompatible with devotion to nature. After all, wilderness is part of God's creation; the Lord is just as present in a grove of trees as in a cathedral. Unfortunately, many modern Christians do not share Tolkien's reverence for the natural world, so his love and concern for nature seems positively non-Christan these days.
With caffeine, all things are possible.
The pity of Bilbo will screw up the fate of many.
(This post was edited by Idril Celebrindal on Apr 4 2011, 4:01pm)
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Apr 4 2011, 4:42pm
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Tolkien sought to incorporate animistic & polytheistic beliefs
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within an all embracing theologically based mythology. Paganism was not excluded but explained in relation to a taxonomy of higher beliefs. But for Tolkien these were not fact outside of his sub-creation of Middle-earth. They were merely deemed as "Applicable" lessons to assist in the understanding of our shared world.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Apr 4 2011, 6:45pm
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it's more that Tolkien's care and passion for creation shows up the shortcomings of his fellow believers than an indication that he held peculiarly pagan beliefs on the subject. True passion for a subject is nearly always a powerful attraction. Tolkien's particular loves (nature, language, etc.) come out strongly in his writing, so it's no wonder that he attracts those who feel similarly, whatever their background.
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
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Silverlode
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Apr 5 2011, 12:28am
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Did you mean to reply to me, or to Kangi Ska? Your message posted as a reply to me (Silverlode).
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Apr 5 2011, 12:30am)
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Olwe
Ossiriand
Apr 5 2011, 12:51am
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Rather than buy into a Tolkien infallibility cult, I really think the man was very conflicted. I've seen so many people try to drive all the square pegs into round holes . . . and it might be best to simply let the dissonance be dissonant. Call it "walking in two worlds" perhaps. What Tolkien was and what he wrote can't be perfectly matched up.
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Annael
Elvenhome
Apr 5 2011, 12:55am
Post #10 of 42
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"pagan" comes from paganus, which means "country-dweller" in Latin. People use it to mean so many different things now that I find it a useless term. (No real polytheist I know considers themself one.)
It's a sad thing that people now think that one can't be a Christian and an environmentalist. Tolkien was both.
The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Apr 5 2011, 1:21am
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"Worship the creator not the creation" and all that. Many Christians actively seek and enjoy the sense of wonder that nature so often evokes, but they are mindful of who made it that way in the first place.
As for "environmentalism?" For some the term carries a specific political slant. As such it is rejected outright by those [nominal] Christians who, by and large, reject everything associated with said slant.
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silneldor
Gondolin
Apr 5 2011, 2:38am
Post #13 of 42
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I like your thoughts here Kangi.
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I think that this illustrated why he greatly dislikes analogy so. He wanted to be able to leave things wide open. I feel it was due to his humility and wisdom to let one search and wonder and then decide for ones self on matters of the heart.
''Sam put his ragged orc-cloak under his master's head, and covered them both with the grey robe of Lorien; and as he did so his thoughts went out to that fair land, and to the Elves, and he hoped that the cloth woven by their hands might have some virtue to keep them hidden beyond all hope in this wilderness of fear...But their luck held, and for the rest of that day they met no living or moving thing; and when night fell they vanished into the darkess of Mordor.'' - - -rotk, chapter III
May the grace of Manwë let us soar with eagle's wings!
In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manwë Súlimo
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Patty
Elvenhome
Apr 5 2011, 2:43am
Post #14 of 42
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Yes. At least in my life as a Christian...
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I feel that environmentalism is the action one takes in obedience to our call by God to be good stewards of the earth. I think that's what made Tolkien care about the earth--and I agree that viewpoint honors the Creator by caring for His creation.
Permanent address: Into the West
Must. Have. The Precious! Give us the LotR EE Blu-ray Ultimate Box Set!
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Annael
Elvenhome
Apr 5 2011, 2:47am
Post #15 of 42
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I can't imagine letting someone else - particularly the media - define my choices for me like that.
The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin
Apr 5 2011, 2:59am
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Sort of a general reply to everyone in general ;) I like this gentle discussion.
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I think it aids clarity of thought and of response. Not that I'm against passion, but it's easier for some people to air contradictory thoughts in this type of atmosphere, even including thoughts that contradict oneself as the thinking evolves and dicussions proceed. (I tend to think out loud--written or spoken--and am perfectly capable of coming to a different opinion than I started out with! )
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Patty
Elvenhome
Apr 5 2011, 3:27am
Post #17 of 42
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Shows you don't have a closed mind.
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Hey, that's a good thing.
Permanent address: Into the West
Must. Have. The Precious! Give us the LotR EE Blu-ray Ultimate Box Set!
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Apr 5 2011, 4:10am
Post #18 of 42
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because of a vocal minority "Christianity" increasingly has come to be associated with a particular political point of view... even to the extent that Tolkien's expression of his Christianity gets interpreted as something it was not.
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Melissa
Ossiriand
Apr 5 2011, 7:37am
Post #20 of 42
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Are the gods and goddesses who dwell in their sacred land. This is very similar indeed to Pagan pantheons, especially the Norse one.
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Apr 5 2011, 11:35am
Post #21 of 42
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- there's an interview from the sixties, where Denis Guerolt asked Tolkien about the place of God or gods in LotR - Guerolt points out that in battle men call on their ancestors, or the names of their swords, but not their gods. Is there not a pantheon of gods in Middle-earth? 'There isn't one', says Tolkien, and goes on to say that modern man can't possibly believe in Asgard or Olympus in thw way that they were once believed in.
As for God, Tolkien comments, 'he's mentioned once or twice'.
Incidentally, the Valar are not gods, nor are they meant to take the place of gods in Tolkien's world; in LotR, they're called the Guardians of the world, and in more than one interview, Tolkien calls them 'demi-urgic'.
As I said; all of this is from memory at the moment. Sorry I can't come up with anything more definite - RL is a bit hectic right now.
(This post was edited by geordie on Apr 5 2011, 11:36am)
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Apr 5 2011, 11:40am
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- I can think of one possible example; that of galadriel's mirror. I have heard or read that in times gone by, folk who followed pagan practices used mirrors for scrying. But it was considered having a glass mirror around, in case the authorities thought you were a witch, so folk used a bowl of water instead.
For what it's worth.
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silneldor
Gondolin
Apr 5 2011, 12:51pm
Post #23 of 42
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is the numbing fundamentalist's view and their literal take of 'domination over' as a avenue and field day without due conscience, for the stampede of greed and the wanton destruction of our natural world.
''Sam put his ragged orc-cloak under his master's head, and covered them both with the grey robe of Lorien; and as he did so his thoughts went out to that fair land, and to the Elves, and he hoped that the cloth woven by their hands might have some virtue to keep them hidden beyond all hope in this wilderness of fear...But their luck held, and for the rest of that day they met no living or moving thing; and when night fell they vanished into the darkess of Mordor.'' - - -rotk, chapter III
May the grace of Manwë let us soar with eagle's wings!
In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manwë Súlimo
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Melissa
Ossiriand
Apr 5 2011, 1:16pm
Post #24 of 42
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It's true the Valar aren't gods,
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but they can easily be interpreted as such by those with a wish to do so.
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